Revise the Stances

I recently decided to create a new toon to reexperience what it is like to be fresh and new in Istaria. After adventuring for several hours, I came to the opinion that the run speed is perhaps one of the most frustrating features in the game. New characters are just plain slow. Now, I recently read a post where someone suggested removing the basic stances(I am totaly against this btw). I would offer up a different suggestion. Take the current stances and simply add to them.

As examples you could take the Green Stance and relable it as the Speed Stance. Boost it by having it provide a bonus of +10 to run and flight speed.

Blue Stance could become the Defense Stance. Boost it by providing a +5% bonus to armor and ethereal armor.

Red Stance could become the Offensive Stance. Boost it by providing a +5% bonus to melee and magical damage.

Leave them in the leveling progression table as they are now. That way low level toons have some within reach milestone skills that will help them as they progress through Istaria without the need of having to quest for them. I look forward to other players comments and suggestions:D.

i really like this idea for the stances :-)

Interesting idea, but still some questions:
*what about "this weapon does additional damage when in Green stance"?
*"paper-scissor" conception, that initially was behind stances, seems to be broken. Blue 'Defense' stance works against Red 'Offensive' stance..and how does Green 'Speed' Stance works and against what?
*how about monsters? Would they be able to use stances? ("Son of Gigaroth used: Offensive stance"?). If yes -would the OP be happy to be lvl.5 and meet lvl.6 mob using all stances?

Personally I would be for removal of stances. SO far - too little need for them.

I thought Stances were removed from the game a long time back, at least operationally. ??

The stances were removed from mobs leaving them only to give bonuses to certain attacks - ex: Crit strike, Smash, etc....

I asked the dev team why the stances weren't used by mobs a few months back and never got an answer. I personally liked the use of stances when the game came out in dec' 02. Gave a bonus to those that payed attention and were diligent in the battle..

But I really like your idea Vengence. Would be cool to give the stances another use!

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

I recently decided to create a new toon to reexperience what it is like to be fresh and new in Istaria. After adventuring for several hours, I came to the opinion that the run speed is perhaps one of the most frustrating features in the game. New characters are just plain slow. Now, I recently read a post where someone suggested removing the basic stances(I am totaly against this btw). I would offer up a different suggestion. Take the current stances and simply add to them.

As examples you could take the Green Stance and relable it as the Speed Stance. Boost it by having it provide a bonus of +10 to run and flight speed.

Blue Stance could become the Defense Stance. Boost it by providing a +5% bonus to armor and ethereal armor.

Red Stance could become the Offensive Stance. Boost it by providing a +5% bonus to melee and magical damage.

Leave them in the leveling progression table as they are now. That way low level toons have some within reach milestone skills that will help them as they progress through Istaria without the need of having to quest for them. I look forward to other players comments and suggestions:D.

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Originally Posted by anonimas

Interesting idea, but still some questions:
*what about "this weapon does additional damage when in Green stance"?
*"paper-scissor" conception, that initially was behind stances, seems to be broken. Blue 'Defense' stance works against Red 'Offensive' stance..and how does Green 'Speed' Stance works and against what?
*how about monsters? Would they be able to use stances? ("Son of Gigaroth used: Offensive stance"?). If yes -would the OP be happy to be lvl.5 and meet lvl.6 mob using all stances?

Personally I would be for removal of stances. SO far - too little need for them.

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I like these ideas, with some caveats.

For the Runspeed boost stance, and accompanying -10% Strength and Power.

Same idea for the other 2. If they boost something, then something else should take a cut. Like Red could be +10% Strength, -10% Power.

Blue Could be +10% Power, -10% Strength.

Or it could be weapon skills, etc.

The mobs should also start using them if we get them back.

I have no problem revisiting the Stances. However, there are two issues:

1) No speed bonuses. Seriously, players already have far too much speed. No way we're adding more.

2) Monsters have no way of intelligently using stances.

Those with multiple stances would.. what?

Change randomly at random intervals?

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Originally Posted by Guaran

I like these ideas, with some caveats.

For the Runspeed boost stance, and accompanying -10% Strength and Power.

Same idea for the other 2. If they boost something, then something else should take a cut. Like Red could be +10% Strength, -10% Power.

Blue Could be +10% Power, -10% Strength.

Or it could be weapon skills, etc.

The mobs should also start using them if we get them back.

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I disagree about the negatives. Stances are awarded as class abilities, there are no "balancing" negatives associated with those like you describe.

If speed is unacceptable as the 3rd stance, what about health and/or alacrity instead? Or +5 to all the stats of the other two instead of +10 to half of them?

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Originally Posted by Veruliyam

Those with multiple stances would.. what?

Change randomly at random intervals?

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Change randomly as soon as the stance had recycled and would never use abilities that tied to the stances.

The monsters don't necessarily need to use stances, could just keep them as a purely player buff, though based on my suggestions below, you could assign a stance to each monster "type", one that is most beneficial to them. Maybe only named mobs have stances?

Red: +Strength, +Power, -Armor, -Ethereal Armor
Blue: +Armor, +Ethereal Armor, -Strength, -Power
Green: +Healing Dealt/Received, +Delay (kinda like a negative alacrity)

Edit: Also, I'd remove the stances clause on all abilities, and make the stances flat stat bonuses/debuffs.

The Rock/Paper/Scissors design kept stances from being very interesting. It's always clear what to do when your opponent has a stance that dominates your stance, no thought or judgement is necessary. I'd like to see stances matter, and see two ways not mentioned previously.

First, add to the original design: instead of Rock/Paper/Scissors, make it the
Rock/ Paper/ Scissors/ Spock/ Lizard design (wikipedia).

There are ten possible pairings of the five gestures, where each gesture beats two of the other gestures and is beaten by the remaining two. The enemy's response to your stance is not obvious, and neither is your response to the enemy's stance.

The other change is to make the stances provide benefit against certain kinds of attacks:
Red: +resist/+ward to all Mystic spells,
Blue: +resist/+ward to all Arcane spells,
Green: +resist/+ward to Pierce/Crush/Slashing

I prefer the 5-stance solution over most of the other proposals.

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

I have no problem revisiting the Stances. However, there are two issues:

1) No speed bonuses. Seriously, players already have far too much speed. No way we're adding more.

2) Monsters have no way of intelligently using stances.

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Kinda agree on the speed. Was just responding the the suggestions.

As far as the monsters go, perhaps have them either default to a particular one that should generally suit them, or have them change it up randomly?

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Originally Posted by awdz

I disagree about the negatives. Stances are awarded as class abilities, there are no "balancing" negatives associated with those like you describe.

If speed is unacceptable as the 3rd stance, what about health and/or alacrity instead? Or +5 to all the stats of the other two instead of +10 to half of them?

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Well, the stances all along had positives and negatives all along. Green stance - deals 10% more damage to targets in red stance, takes 10% more damage from targets in Blue stance. (or whatever the arrangement is). Point is they have always had a + and a - ever since Day 1.

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Originally Posted by Daulnay

The Rock/Paper/Scissors design kept stances from being very interesting. It's always clear what to do when your opponent has a stance that dominates your stance, no thought or judgement is necessary. I'd like to see stances matter, and see two ways not mentioned previously.

First, add to the original design: instead of Rock/Paper/Scissors, make it the
Rock/ Paper/ Scissors/ Spock/ Lizard design (wikipedia).

There are ten possible pairings of the five gestures, where each gesture beats two of the other gestures and is beaten by the remaining two. The enemy's response to your stance is not obvious, and neither is your response to the enemy's stance.

The other change is to make the stances provide benefit against certain kinds of attacks:
Red: +resist/+ward to all Mystic spells,
Blue: +resist/+ward to all Arcane spells,
Green: +resist/+ward to Pierce/Crush/Slashing

I prefer the 5-stance solution over most of the other proposals.

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Having more stages might be doable. I don't see a problem with that. I do believe that the original implementation where one stance beats another, but is vulnerable to the third was the only type of way to implement them.

Don't really think the resist/ward idea makes any sense. Why should a combat stance give me nature resistance? All it should do is be more effective and/or defensive against other stances. Do not forget what a combat stance is. Combat pose might be a better way to think of it.

Just turn them back on as they were originally implemented. Assign some basic rules to monsters and let them use them as well. They used them at launch and they seemed to be able to use them with some basic utility correctly.

Going back to the 5 point stance idea, the game somewhat already has this, although only archers get the extra stances. Rapid-Fire stance is one (increased rate of ranged fire, decreased evasion), I forget the name of the other. Pretty sure they did not stack with the Red-green-blue. There's also Neutral stance (no stance).

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Originally Posted by Guaran

Well, the stances all along had positives and negatives all along. Green stance - deals 10% more damage to targets in red stance, takes 10% more damage from targets in Blue stance. (or whatever the arrangement is). Point is they have always had a + and a - ever since Day 1.

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Ah, I see why you suggested a negative. I was talking about class abilities in general not having negatives that outweighed the positives. With the stances, if you paid attention, you always could keep an edge up over your opponent - I do not consider that a negative.

And I will go for the fact, that stance gives both positive and negative bonuses.
If we think of stance as a "combat pose" - there may be, each one having its own pros and cons. Offensive pose may mean character tries to inflict as much damage in as shorter time as it is possible therefore increased attack speed and harder hits; cons - bad defense (since character thinks only about attack). Defensive pose may mean character uses his armor/shielding with greater skill; cons - bad offense (since we need to survive untill that lvl.200 Dragon arrives...). Evasive pose may mean character wants to just evade any incoming attack while counter-attacking monster with short attacks; cons - reduced attack accuracy and shield use. Or there could be simple 'stances': melee attack, ranged attack, spell attack.
Overall, I would be for "paper-scissors" scheme if these stances are to be resurrected. Having just another bonus is, of course, good (easier to deal with that monster that is just 5 levels above your level...), but not too fun.

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Originally Posted by anonimas

And I will go for the fact, that stance gives both positive and negative bonuses.
If we think of stance as a "combat pose" - there may be, each one having its own pros and cons. Offensive pose may mean character tries to inflict as much damage in as shorter time as it is possible therefore increased attack speed and harder hits; cons - bad defense (since character thinks only about attack). Defensive pose may mean character uses his armor/shielding with greater skill; cons - bad offense (since we need to survive untill that lvl.200 Dragon arrives...). Evasive pose may mean character wants to just evade any incoming attack while counter-attacking monster with short attacks; cons - reduced attack accuracy and shield use. Or there could be simple 'stances': melee attack, ranged attack, spell attack.
Overall, I would be for "paper-scissors" scheme if these stances are to be resurrected. Having just another bonus is, of course, good (easier to deal with that monster that is just 5 levels above your level...), but not too fun.

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I actually like this idea a bit better, a defensive pose, an evasive pose, and an offensive pose.

No need, however, to make penalties. Just make it simple. I wouldn't exactly be fond of losing my defenses in favor of an attack stance for example. For a defensive stance, I'd also throw in a bonus to block/parry chance, for an evasion stance I'd also throw in a bonus to dodging.

Make the stances apply matching color post-process filters or use them to build an internal Simon color matching game. :B *Useless post! :D*

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Originally Posted by Litarath

I actually like this idea a bit better, a defensive pose, an evasive pose, and an offensive pose.

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I do belive these things already exist:
Defensive Style
Evasive Style
Power Style

As well as:
Melee/Ranged Flury

I certainly wouldn't be opposed if these old stances were reinstated with the whithered ages. The way I remember it working was basically mobs walked around in any one of the stances. Then, as you (or they) engaged in combat, they would typically change stance to better you or if they were about to use an attack that benefitted from a particular stance. I like the other 5-stance idea, but not so sure if I would be comfortable playing with it... bit too complicated for my liking ;)

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

Change randomly as soon as the stance had recycled and would never use abilities that tied to the stances.

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Originally Posted by hallucin8

The way I remember it working was basically mobs walked around in any one of the stances. Then, as you (or they) engaged in combat, they would typically change stance to better you or if they were about to use an attack that benefitted from a particular stance.

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Nope!

(Plus a lengthy and superfluous amount of letterage because the forum won't accept a post less than 10 letter. :P)

Well I would like them changed to something else if not just deleted from game.. I personally liked the colored stances, added a bit of strategy to the game I think... but its completely stupid and a waste of memory to keep them there for 'oohs and ahhs' It gets newbies confused and wondering what they're there for.. Bringing random questions to chats occassionally


the only good thing I see to these stances is annoying people in NT while flying in the air with a colored stance on... Making hatchlings go kitty-mode on us all >.< *pounce pretty light*