Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
For a future update we are considering changing the biped construction schools (carpenter, enchanter, fitter, mason and weaver) to use the Primary Skill System.
This change would allow us to give the experience players get for both making and applying constructing biped construction items (the timbers, braces, etc) a significant boost. The trade off is, of course, that you would only earn experience for making the final product and then applying it to the structures you are building.
So talk to us... what do you see as pros and cons of this proposal.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
What do I do if I run out of structures to work on?
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jerk-o
What do I do if I run out of structures to work on?
Work on someone else's structures.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
Work on someone else's structures.
I can't speak for Chaos, but there really isn't enough people to work on someone else's structures all the time. With the new vault changes, it's not too difficult to just store the excess units in there until someone wants them, though that sort of defeats the point. Moving all of the exp gain towards the making/application of the construction units might make it feel like you /have/ to get a plot to get anywhere within a decent time frame with the school.
To alleviate that, could make an NPC who does something like the trophies you get from looting dead stuff you've mauled, except you turn in 5 of a construction material for crafting exp. Make it give, say, half the exp you would gain from actually applying it to a structure. Maybe the empire is in desperate need of building materials or something. Giving half the exp would still allow people to level those schools without tearing their hair out while looking for someone who has structures that need the material, while still not providing an easy pass to level.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
So the idea is to make it so the construction classes only make exp. from the end product and applying? No more exp. from bars/boards/bricks/etc?
First thought is it makes sense to have it work that way but then I think if I were still leveling those classes I would be a disappointed.
Scenario: I need to work on some t1 fitting work but like most Istarians, I don't have a plot to store stuff. I would have to start as a miner or some other school that can still get exp. from making bars. Port out to go mine the resources until my inventory is full; Port back to the town so I can switch to fitter and make bronze construction sheets. Then port out the plot so I can apply the units. Then I get the joy of porting back to the town so I can switch back to miner? Then port again so I can go mine the resource to fill my inventory again. Rinse and repeat over and over again... Sure would cause a lot of headaches.
But maybe this is a very clever way to get more folks to order up and have themselves a plot... I like it! lol :D
I know if I had to level the construction classes that way... I simply would not. Unless the exp. you're talking about were greatly increased, in which case that would be great! Except for us long time players whom would be disappointed that yet another challenge in this game was nerfed to make it easier... Lame :(
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finkledbody
I know if I had to level the construction classes that way... I simply would not. Unless the exp. you're talking about were greatly increased, in which case that would be great! Except for us long time players whom would be disappointed that yet another challenge in this game was nerfed to make it easier... Lame :(
It would be increased to be the same as with Lairshaper. That is, 20% of your XP comes from construction products (timbers, keystones, etc) while 80% comes from applying those to structures.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
As a long time Grand master builder / grand master crafter i feel this is just another Slap in the face by the development team . WHY change something that is not broken ????. Istaria is well known for its unique crafting system and it is 1 of the best i have played in all my years of playing various games . to just nerf it does not make any sense.Please rethink this idea and leave the building crafts alone . i am a free account player that has spent 4+ years in Istaria and don't / can't own a plot , and the number of plots being built op are almost too difficult to find ( you have to keep making post to make sure people know you are available but that is useless ( onless there is a registery created that players can list available plots or skill on ))
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
+ If it's going to have the same leveling pattern as lairshaper, then i am for that. Lairshaping has a good structure for xp dish out, imo.
- I worry that leveling the schools will be harder. A lot harder. It kinda forces players to get plots as, as Alisto pointed out, you have to rely on your own plot because it's hard to find specific work nowadays.
- You can't level on making materials, that's got a disadvatage that brings up the above point. You need a plot to level.
But, what i think is a greater effect is Enchater. There is so little essence work on structures it's currently hard to level it on construction. I mostly rely on making ess orbs to level it because i don't have any construction work for it. Anything which requires essence is huge, and i can't fit enough on my plot to level on it...unless i were to make and decon, but then i'd need to make everything else too...and rebuild for every laod of essence needed...that's incredibly tedious. Weaver is similar, but seems to have a little more work to do. Only with enchanter, you NEED enchanter to level ALCHEMIST (purified orbs) and various other things the enchanted orbs are used it...Why should i need a plot to level alchemist???
Basically, if you change the system to this, then you're also going to have change other things.
As such as:
- Making plot resources to build even.
Now see, a silo is tiny, you can fit a lot on a plot, so you can level fitter, mason and carpenter pretty easily. Anything which requires fabric or essence is in large structures, and there's still less of it than metal/wood/stone work. If you're going to have it rely on plots, you need to change plot stuff so we are actually able to level on it. I'm not going to put on 5 houses that i have to decon everyhting else on my plot for just to level one teir of weaver. Either you make all plot resources even for each structure (i.e. all structures need all five schools) or you make things which need essence and fabric need significantly more to make it. Then leveling on plots only will become slightly more viable.
- Make all enchanter items (apart form construction) usable by essence shaping, and not enchanting. So therefore you won't need a plot to be an alchemist, to make the purified orbs for example. Blight purifying included. This means enchanter becomes a proper construction school and alchemists won't need a plot to make health potions for example.
Currently, you need to make materials to level. Maybe you're jsut a stretch away form next teir, yeah that can resolved by changing to the proposed system..but right now, for weaver and enchanter in particular, you NEED materials. You need to have them because there's so little work you can barley get a few levels in before all work in that tier ends, and you power through the majority of a teir on processing fabric and orbs only. The proposed system will not resolve that, because unless you have a huge plot and and exact idea of what to build to level, you can't get far on structures. Which is why you need to change the resources to be even. If resources are even, you won't get the issue that most of a teir is leveled by processing and not building.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
I am against the idea !.
Andy.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
Having done lots of construction, both dragon and biped. it seems to me that for a positive result of the op suggestion, the current 5 biped construction schools would need to be combined to be one school so that making and applying of all types of construction would feed exp to that single building school. To keep the current biped building schools with such a change would IMHO set biped construction back to a significant degree. With a single biped building school the enchanting functions would need to be placed elsewhere and only essence structuring would happen in the single biped building school.
BTW the Primary Skill System does work just fine for Biped Confectioner School but all food is produced by a single school in this case.
Knossos
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
Why make things worse. If you change this to like dragons go all the way with just 1 school of crafting for bi-peds. One school for construction like lairshaping. Anything else is just dumping on the bi-peds. I just wasted my time and money doing all the work I do. Why would anyone get anybody to do their plots for them if that is the only way to get up in this new school. As if there is a lot of plots out there to work on in the first place. One more way to kill this game. Slimey
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
I don't like the idea. The only way I can currently level my construction schools is the old fashioned way, making stone bricks, deconning things, etc. The idea of working on someone else's plot might hold water if we had a higher population, which is not the case. This seems like I would be forced to by a plot subscription, which I currently do not have. Sorry to say, that extra $5.00 a month is actually a big deal to me. I can barely afford to play @ $9.95. While I'm sure you'd like to increase your revenue and encourage folks to get a plot (there is certainly nothing wrong with that, business 101). I'd be ok more with giving slight exp boost while applying items (a bonus for those with plots who are paying the extra 5 bucks), but not reducing exp on the other things. It is kind of pointless to even own a plot until you get your construction skills past, at min T2 to T3. Not much to make. The pro, is of course more owned plots around the world, which I think is important aspect to the overall game. I can kind of see where this would "nudge" an increase to plot ownership. So with that I'm a little torn.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
At this time I'd have to say no, but I'm sure my concerns can be alleviated.
First issue is the boost to experience. I think it would have to be quite significant, not just on par with what you get now. The time required to get experience would go up significantly given you have to run to a plot and apply them, where previously you could level up making/deconning tools which often can be done in the field (possible suggestion: introduce new disks for construction schools with speed boost... just like the miner/gatherer ones used to be). But too bad if you pay $10 a month and thus don't have a plot slot; there's simply not enough work around. Also, you'll end up having to simply build and decon buildings to level up, which is such a waste, not just of the novians but also having a portion of your plot effectively unusable.
Further to the point of needing access to a plot to level up on... that seems like it's just going to create a new (huge) barrier for new players to get involved. There was a post quite recently about newbies and plot ownership and the coin barrier, so basically your saying now that you'll have to be relatively high level adventure to earn enough coin to buy a plot just so you can level up the construction schools... brings us back to the point of, there is simply not enough work to go around for people to level on.
It worked for OK dragons because you only have one school and so grinding out a bit isn't going to kill it, but for a ped to have to grind out 5 schools (without a plot) is just ludacris. In the long run, I can only guess that the number (and availability) of peds with high level construction schools would diminish.
2 cents :)
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
No x2 from here- Lup and me agree with what is said against it here.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
I do not see the clear benefit to the change from what the system currently is. Can you explain why this change is needed?
At least currently if you are working on a tier for which you do not need the building materials, you can make intermediates for use in other projects and still make reasonable progress on the construction class. Why reduce this option so much?
Please help us to understand the trade off better.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
I hear the concerns about some schools (Enchanter and Weaver) being under utilized and thus it is much harder to level those than the others, and that is something that at least I had not taken into consideration when making this proposal. That is, admittedly, not something I know how to address right off the top of my head without making major changes to structures to require a more balanced set of materials.
I also hear the concerns that Free Access or Basic Access players would be at a disadvantage under this new system, but the honest answer is that you should be at a disadvantage if you don't own a plot. Not unable to join the schools, of course, but at a disadvantage. You can play as a dragon with Basic Access and can level lairshaping, but it takes longer to do so than if you owned your own lair. These are construction schools and thus if you aren't doing construction actively, you should take longer to level the schools. I realize this isn't going to be a popular statement I just made, btw, but please remember that flame-posts will be deleted when responding.
Keep in mind that the experience-per-unit is much, much higher under the current Lairshaping system than it is under the current biped-construction system. And though you can gain experience currently in other ways, nothing you craft gives nearly the experience per unit than current construction experience, and that isn't even close to lairshaping. (It is something like double the exp per unit between making tools and making construction resources, and then double again for lairshaping.)
Also, the 20%/80% break down Amon listed above is just what is presently proposed, not set in stone. That is just how the lairshaping system is.
Unfortunately there's no way to change the system so that there is one school for bipeds for construction without making the current multiple schools obsolete. And I'm sure that no one wants to have to level all over again their construction school, so that idea is right out. ;)
But please, keep the ideas coming. Not saying we've made a decision one way or another on this, so we'll keep talking. :)
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by
awdz
I do not see the clear benefit to the change from what the system currently is. Can you explain why this change is needed?
...<Snip>...
Please help us to understand the trade off better.
The answer to this is what everyone needs to know. We're seeing too many unnecessary changes being proposed or introduced without good reason (did anyone ask for Guardian abilities to be overhauled? Nope. Did anyone ask for Blight Hounds to be completely reworked? Nope. Did Fyakkis or Fiery Dire Wolves really require a name change? Nope. I won't go on but we all can cite from a multitude of recent examples of changes that were unnecessary and have actually taken away from gameplay instead of contributing to it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Velea
I hear the concerns about some schools (Enchanter and Weaver) being under utilized and thus it is much harder to level those than the others, and that is something that at least I had not taken into consideration when making this proposal. That is, admittedly, not something I know how to address right off the top of my head without making major changes to structures to require a more balanced set of materials.
Nonsense, enchanter and weaver are not underutilised. Enchanter has a booming trade supplying resources for alchemists - don't change this by simplifying the system and making enchanters a one-trick pony. Ever worked on a library? Okay so T2 is only a hundred spheres and 150 sources, but then it's 600 of each for T4. Guild houses have a tonne of both weaving and enchanting work to be done. Vaults, small, medium and large all offer a significant amount of experience for both Weaver and Enchanter.
A lack of experience for these schools is the fault of players who insist on filling a plot with tonnes of silos. If people plan their plot to look pleasant instead of looking like silo city then they will be able to earn experience across all construction schools. In fact recently when I levelled all my construction schools to 100 it was Carpenter that lagged behind the other schools, not Weaver or Enchanter.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of construction schools losing out on their secondary purposes. As most have already pointed out there isn't always enough construction work to go around. The developers would be required to regularly introduce new community structures for players to contribute towards in order to placate the lack of player-defined construction work that is prevalent in current-day Istaria should the ability for Weavers to earn experience from backpack pouches be removed, or Fitters making metal tools.
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I have to agree with the sentiment expressed by others in this topic - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! The only thing I can say to counter that perspective lies within my first statement in this post - if we understand why these changes are being proposed then we can collaborate with the developers towards making an improvement. Chucking "proposed changes" out here with no reasoning behind them, no explanation of what's broken and needs to be resolved, well I just don't see how that can lead to a viable, useful and enthusiastic outcome.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
It's been the way it is for over 10 years.
I think I would be for the idea, removing the exp from bars and bricks while in the Const schools, <IF> the exp gained from making bars bricks while in miner also gets a big boost. And orbs, spools, etc get a big boost for the Gatherer school. Those are some of the grindiest schools out there, so boosting their exp at the same time would likely be an improvement.
Everyone is freaking out about loosing the bars exp, but its actually fairly small exp. And the exp for making the individual construction materials will probably get a huge boost. I don't have exact number examples for Lairshaper, but it was in the thousands for making + applying, per unit. The resource processing exp is what, 70 exp per mithril bar? less? I remember it being tiny. That's why leveling miner was such a pain.
So if they look at it all together, the change could be a good thing.
Someone should test out the exp given on a few materials and post it here, a mithril bar, shining orb, radiant orb, yew brace, applying 1 unit of yew brace, and then some equal tier lair materials to give an idea of what the exp would be after the change.
I do also have some of the same concerns that certain construction schools are less evenly used, spheres (Enchanter) are not used in many things, like lamp posts, tents, silos might not even take them.. forget exactly where they are left out, but I know there are examples.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guaran
Someone should test out the exp given on a few materials and post it here, a mithril bar, shining orb, radiant orb, yew brace, applying 1 unit of yew brace, and then some equal tier lair materials to give an idea of what the exp would be after the change.
Good idea, here is a run-down of experience gains for Fitter school, my base smelting is 900 and base fitting is 1000 (Miner is only level 86 at the moment so skills are all off Fitter school). I picked a tier V resource since I'm at optimal skill level for making the resources and applying the units.
Creation |
Craft x 1 |
Exp per Bar |
Mithril Bar |
137 |
137 |
Mithril Construction Sheeting |
1044 |
69.6 |
Mithril Construction Jointing |
767 |
38.4 |
Application |
Structure |
Resources per Unit |
Bars per Unit |
Experience |
Exp per Bar |
Mithril Construction Sheeting |
T5 Silo |
2 |
30 |
1995 |
66.5 |
Mithril Construction Jointing |
T5 Silo |
2 |
40 |
3735 |
93.4 |
Mithril Construction Sheeting |
T5 Storehouse |
2 |
30 |
2672 |
89.1 |
Mithril Construction Jointing |
T5 Storehouse |
2 |
40 |
4151 |
103.8 |
Mithril Construction Sheeting |
Human Clocktower |
1 |
15 |
6730 |
448.7 |
Mithril Construction Jointing |
Human Clocktower |
1 |
20 |
12313 |
615.7 |
This shows us that there is definitely a need to look at the Fitter experience gains because previously reported anomalies still exist, but I don't think it warrants an overhaul to the way construction schools gain experience. I'd wholeheartedly encourage the correction of the anomalies that are apparent with regards to current skill gains, but I still have reservations about the need to overhaul the schools any further.
Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools
I was thinking of the quests handed out by the gnome in the imperial outpost that give you imperial rank tokens for t6 construction materials and had an idea: Have the trainers for the construction schools give out repeatable quests that give the player some xp and money for making and turning in construction materials. Have the xp reward be half to two thirds of the xp you'd get for placing the materials on a plot and have the money reward be one silver per teir (t1 would give 1 silver, t2 would give 2 silver, etc.). The quest dialog would say something about supplying construction materials to the empire. This would help the players that don't have/can't find any construction work to level off of to still level at a (somewhat) reasonable pace and also be able to make some money off of it.