Alchemist Potions need non-alchemist skills to make?

So, the title says it all. Apparently, in order to make most of the (imo) useful potions like thickened skin, soothing remedy and (I think) armor boost, you need to make purified essence orbs. Ok, that's fine… Where do I get them and how? Well after some digging I found out that it's an ENCHANTING FORMULA.

I have to multi-class in enchanter in order to make like four or more of my ALCHEMIST potions? Umm, does anyone else see the hypocrisy in that? Basically, I'll be forced to level enchanter at the same time as alchemist in order to make the most useful potions. Which is something I don't want to do as crafting is more a secondary goal for me. I like alchemist, I like the process, but now that I can't make anything except for some dyes and harvesting potions, I don't think I'll be playing it.

Unless of course this is all a misunderstanding and there is some type of alchemical formula to make purified essence orbs?

If not, please change it. It's incredibly stupid that there would be a class that can't make it's own stuff without being forced to multi-class. I'm not building a house, I'm brewing a potion. You'd think being an alchemist I'd know how to do that.

-Q

I think some of the most commonly sold potions are the reaping potions, and I think they require tools to be used as ingredients in the process. So you'd probably also have to level blacksmith... Just sayin ;)

Well, I didn't know that either…

So basically an Alchemist is a useless class unless you've leveled up to two other crafting classes simultaneously? Does no one see that as ridiculous?

Surely a class should at LEAST be able to make the items associated with it on it's own? Right? How can anyone justify the fact that alchemist MUST multi-class in order to make their own formulae? How is that even remotely a good idea?

At the very least, make a formula for purified/blighted/whatnot essence specifically for Alchemists. There is no compelling reason AT ALL that alchemists can't make their own stuff.

The one crafting class that interested me turns out to be completely broken and unplayable unless you've got 19 hours a day to grind 3 classes… Boy oh boy…

There seems to be some interdependency with some crafts - but it's definitely kinda spotty, it's a bit weird! I'd think *at the least* alch should have a handful of recipes, minimum, that don't require other crafts so they can at least level consistently.. but besides that, I guess you'd be expected to make contacts with other crafters for some of the parts. Not all the crafting classes are 100% self-sufficient.. Though to be fair, most of them are by and large, it seems!

This is a good point to bring up though I would qualify it a bit. Formulas for potions sold by Trainers should not require other schools to support, that I can get behind. Formulas that are looted, however, are fair game for cross-school requirements as they aren't the basic products of the school. I'll add it to my to-do list to review these.

I think it is interdependency between crafts.
In that way you deal with a blacksmith to make tools if you want to make reaping potions for ore and stone.

I think it's fine the way it is.

Just buy those needed components from other players if you want to craft those potions. Same for the orbs.

Alchemist should not be able to make tools for reaping potions... so adding that in is a no go for me.

Other example is scholar's scrolls. You need spells to make many of those. Scholar doesn't get spell skill past level 40, you need spellcrafter school if you want that skill yourself to make t5 base spells used in t5 scrolls. Or, you can get them from another spellcrafter.

This kind of interdependency is all over the craft schools. Some schools are considered "Prestige" (or Advanced - see www.istaria-guides dot com ) which means you are meant to take them after having other schools leveled so far. That may not be the right point for this crafting interdependence.. But I don't see it changing.

Now the nice thing is, there are some shared skills between Alchemist and Enchanter. Both get experience for making orbs. So you get alchemist up kinda high, switch to enchanter, make orbs you are going to use for alchemist potions, but you can get some enchanter exp while doing so.

Currently the only potions that an Alchemist can make completely on their own are some of the "boost" potions (Strength, Dex, Etc.). While that's all well and good, I really think the class should have far more recipes that they can craft by themselves before being relegated to either grind other crafting classes or getting other crafters to make the ingredients for you.

The annoying thing for me is that the best potions (Soothing Remedy, Evasive Aura, Thickened Skin, etc.) the class can make, are in fact these "cross over" recipes. That leaves the class with a a small amount of only semi-useful potions they can make, and a bunch of awesome potions they can't.

I'm all for class inter-dependancy, but at least give each class a solid base of items to craft before forcing them to either level another class or mooch from someone else. I'm a low level crafter, how many of the max tier crafters are going to want to waste their time to make me some orbs? Or even if they do, how often would they want to do it?

The best solution I can think of is to give Alchemist enchanting skill to at least open up a few more of the potions that require essence manipulation, something that they are already trained in. Everything else is fine, if I need a pick, I'll buy a few picks. But pestering people to make me ingredients to ingredients? That's a bit much.

-Q

I did a quick review of the "basic" formulas that are sold on vendors and except for tools used in Reaping potions I don't see any materials required that cannot be made directly by an Alchemist. Tainted Orbs, Suspensions, Ground Gems, Metal Powders, Glass Vials, these are all Alchemist-made.

The formulas listed in the OP are looted and therefore in my opinion fair-game for requiring materials not made by Alchemists. You can still level using the basic formulas even though it would be dull.

Or you can take your skills to grandmaster and not have to worry about not being able to make potions. ;)

While we're talking Alchemist I have always wanted to redo it in a manner similar to Confectioner. More potions with a wider variety of purpose, use the primary skill system, and make wider use of a larger range of resources. Using gems and ores and orbs is kind of dull. Using resources processed from monster parts, from deconstructed items, etc would be interesting.

My original idea was to change it so that every potion required five components:
* Container - Not just glass vials, but perhaps other types of vials (Crystal or even magical ones) or jars (clay, metal, etc)
* Suspension - Water, Blessed Water, existing Suspensions, etc
* Resource #1
* Resource #2
* Catalyst - Something to make the chemical reaction go, like essence orbs or materia or something

Was just a thought I've had for a while now.

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

While we're talking Alchemist I have always wanted to redo it in a manner similar to Confectioner. More potions with a wider variety of purpose, use the primary skill system, and make wider use of a larger range of resources. Using gems and ores and orbs is kind of dull. Using resources processed from monster parts, from deconstructed items, etc would be interesting.

My original idea was to change it so that every potion required five components:
* Container - Not just glass vials, but perhaps other types of vials (Crystal or even magical ones) or jars (clay, metal, etc)
* Suspension - Water, Blessed Water, existing Suspensions, etc
* Resource #1
* Resource #2
* Catalyst - Something to make the chemical reaction go, like essence orbs or materia or something

Was just a thought I've had for a while now.

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Sounds very cool, and it would greatly improve the class. My annoyance stems from the fact that just sticking with the basics, I can't really make any potions aside from "boosts" which aren't that fun. Any crafting class should have a solid base of recipes they can make
before going off to find cross-class ones. Alchemist is far from that.

I was really excited to start making soothing remedies and other combat potions, I figured they were staple Alchemist potions and wouldn't be a problem to make. I was sadly mistaken.

If you'd like to post a topic on an alchemist re-vamp, I'd gladly pitch in some thoughts!

-Quiiliitiila

I can justify needing BLK for tools, but when i wanted to make some health potions i died inside as i realised i'd have to level enchanter to get the purified orbs. IMO - purified orbs should be reliant on ess shaping, and not enchanter anyway.
See, i can justify needing skill form other schools. But leave construction schools out of it. Construction are kind of their own set of classes, and no skill from a construction school should be needed for other shcools like alchemist. There's only one reason my kitty can't make some t3 potions right now - and tahts because enchanter isn't high enough. I shouldn't need to build a plot (for effective leveling) just so i can make a potion...

I'd also just like to point out Tinker requires craft school inter-dependency also. Tink does not get any gathering or raw resource processing skills, nor do they get exp for making basic resources... Not that I'm voting for a change one way or another, just saying :)

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Originally Posted by Azath

I can justify needing BLK for tools, but when i wanted to make some health potions i died inside as i realised i'd have to level enchanter to get the purified orbs. IMO - purified orbs should be reliant on ess shaping, and not enchanter anyway.
See, i can justify needing skill form other schools. But leave construction schools out of it. Construction are kind of their own set of classes, and no skill from a construction school should be needed for other shcools like alchemist. There's only one reason my kitty can't make some t3 potions right now - and tahts because enchanter isn't high enough. I shouldn't need to build a plot (for effective leveling) just so i can make a potion...

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What I'm finding strange is that a dragon cannot change a tainted essence orb into a regular essence orb. I thought the transmutation ability and formula would do it, but that only takes tainted and dim orbs to make pale orbs.

I'm left wondering why this skill (tainted orb -> regular orb) is only for enchanter also.

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Originally Posted by Deelighted

What I'm finding strange is that a dragon cannot change a tainted essence orb into a regular essence orb. I thought the transmutation ability and formula would do it, but that only takes tainted and dim orbs to make pale orbs.

I'm left wondering why this skill (tainted orb -> regular orb) is only for enchanter also.

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Why do dragons need to cleanse tainted orbs? They can make regular orbs already. Cleansing is one of the things that makes enchanter a specialized school - and given how difficult it is to level (so few structures use odd-tier essence), another method of gaining enchanter xp is really required.

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Originally Posted by awdz

Why do dragons need to cleanse tainted orbs? They can make regular orbs already. Cleansing is one of the things that makes enchanter a specialized school - and given how difficult it is to level (so few structures use odd-tier essence), another method of gaining enchanter xp is really required.

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Agreed Awdz enchanter has a special place of hate in my heart for this very reason

As for tainted to regular orbs, the only purpose purifying tainted orbs serves is to level enchanter so dragons don't need to be able to make em. Its like a dragon complaining that they can't make Glass vials, you don't need them for anything at all so serves no purpose

In the past, tainted and blighted orbs were needed for spelltechs and spells, even some regular techs (Strength III used blighted glowing orbs at one point). Like blight spell techs, used blighted orbs or tainted orbs for the 4 'tech' orbs instead of clean orbs, and the spells themselves used blighted. Others used tainted orbs. not sure why any of that was changed.

But Awdz is right, Dragons have no need to convert tainted orbs, only enchanters have ever been able to do that.

Transmutation allows you to turn orbs into the next higher tier or orb. This was the only way to do t5 and later even t6 construction, because the t5 and t6 raw resources did not exist anywhere. I even remember making True Grit V spell for my dragon, having to transmute up bright orbs into shining orbs, and obsidian bricks into marble bricks to make the spellshards. Took about 30 minutes or more to gather everything up and process it. Spells sold for 100s and it was a good deal too. Old school t6 construction was soo much more difficult than it is today...

Transmutation was never meant to "convert" or "clean" orbs, or anything else.