Use this thread to discuss adding to the existing school.
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Use this thread to discuss adding to the existing school.
My biggest issue with this approach is simply: How do you add more on top without altering the existing school or abilities? With bipeds, at least, they have to work to gain more power. With Dragons, this would simply give them more power without any work. If the level cap were increased for Dragons how would that impact other aspects of the game? Suddenly we'd have to add T6 scales and claws and spells?
In addition, if the level cap were raised, how far is enough? the game actually tracks xp gained beyond 100 so many players might jump immediately to 120 or 125 if the cap were raised. That doesn't seem fair either.
How do you give a range of new capabilities in only 10 or 20 levels?
How would you work the Rites into it? What about mastery quests and quested abilities?
There are just so many factors and concerns that it makes me unsure how it could be done without altering the base.
What if there were a couple of schools that dragons could choose when at level 100 and ancient, both would be comprised of buffs with few or no new offensive abilities, so advancing to one of these schools would bolster the existing abilities of a dragon.
The two new schools would be mutually exclusive, a dragon would be unable to take both.
One school bolsters primal magic, the other school enhances tooth and claw. I was thinking of something like "Battle-hardened" as a possible name for one of these schools, something that emphasises the sturdier nature of the advancement.
This is all very basic in terms of suggestion, but offers a possibility of how to advance dragons without altering the existing dragon adventure school. It results in two distinct classes of dragon, and a means of progression beyond level 100 ancient. There is plenty of scope to consider abilities that will enhance dragons in one of two distinct directions, and will ensure that a dragon who chooses to pursue primal magic will not be comparable to a dragon that pursues the physical aspects of tooth and claw.
Would a concept like this be viable? Does it present any problems or go beyond any limitations of a technical or game design nature? I'm keen to see where dragons go in the future, and I'm optimistic that other players will present ideas that can help shape dragons more towards the vision that the developers have in mind.
I was thinking it might work to make dragon prestige schools. I really like what Cooolios laid out in the other thread. Here are some basic thoughts on how it might work, not knowing dragons nor the technical side hardly at all:
Suggested requirements: DRA 30 or whatever level makes sense. If school quests require flying, maybe require adult status.
Quests: If focusing on a particular skill set, not all of the existing ability quests would apply. So, while in the school, keep only the applicable existing ability quests. Primal skill applies for spellcasters, Tooth and Claw for melee focus, Healing ability for healers, etc.
New quests could be introduced for the prestige schools to earn extra ability points, or as for biped classes the points in the relevant skills simply could increase more per level.
Abilities: Consider borrowing from biped concepts but applied to primal form. Only abilities relevant to the school focus should carry over from the general class.
It could also require updating requirements for many existing quests to allow the prestige class levels to apply. Is the same level in a prestige class as in the DRA class sufficient for ARoP?
I do not know how feasible any of this is. It's just where my thoughts took me.
The problem with additional schools and Dragons is quested abilities. The mechanism by which they work in biped schools, exclusivity and all of that, doesn't work for quested abilities.
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Suggested requirements: DRA 30 or whatever level makes sense. If school quests require flying, maybe require adult status.
To me this says "change existing Dragons to fix new concept". Which is something everyone appears to be against.
I was not saying the existing quested abilities should be taken away. New abilities would be add-ons to what they had already earned. They would just have to level up in an appropriate school to get the existing ability quests, and prestige schools could have non-quested abilities or exclusive school quests for additional abilities. If that makes them too uber, is it possble to just change the rating formula to count the non-current dragon schools more heavily than the biped formula does?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmonGwareth
I know some of this was suggested by someone else but. just some ideas
Referencing the GR change, Yes i know I significantly increased its recycle but i think thats a fair trade of for the not small damage increase and changing it to always hitting and perhaps it won't annoy amon quite so much having a longer recycle :D
Ancient determination -
Requirement 1200 Str + level 100
reward + 220 str +5 dam (adjusted)
Ancient Primal roar
Requirement 1200 power + level 100
reward + 240 power + 200 spell attack skill + 10 spell damage (adjusted)
Wingstorm (advanced form of galewind)
Requirement 1200 power + level 100
Attack Type: pierce
Delay: 55
Recycle: 1:30
Range: 20
Skill Primal
Damage 250-300
Drulkars reach
Requirement Dragons reach 6, 1200 Primal, 100 drag
Attack Type: pierce
Delay: 55
Recycle: 1:30
Range: 50
Skill Primal
Damage 300-350
Drulkars Rage (think of it as Gold rage X) Here me out
requirement Gold rage VII, 1200 TnC level 100
Recycle 45 sec
Triple current Hoard cost for GR
■2 Extra Attacks
■Always hits
■600% Damage
■Crippled VII: Primal Resist
■-200 to -150 Primal Resistance
■Modifies delay by +50%
■Modifies recycle by +50%
I could carry on adding the ancient versions for all the attacks like bite etc but what would be the point
Raw stat wise, you could just only let dragons - while leveling up - to either take the quests that increase spells damage/Primal, or tooth and claw/melee damage - but not take both to max. For hybrids, they could take 5 tc quests and 5 primal ones, or any combination that they liked, for a total of 10(?) quests. However, this means that lv100 dragons would be 'missing' some stats - increase base stats a smidgen to compensate if need be. At X, the Primal Mastery/TC X quests give 100 tooth and claw or 100 primal. It isn't enough to come anywhere near making or breaking a build, /but/ is still a half decent boost.Quote:
How do you give a range of new capabilities in only 10 or 20 levels?
That would take part of the load off of fitting a whole bunch of stuff into 10-20 levels. Then, for those levels after 100, there could be a quest chain similar to ARoP/RoP where you learn a little bit about each faction (that -isn't- fighting tendencies), then choose one that has a view you can support. The quest would focus more on the viewpoint aspect of the factions as opposed to fighting style, while also pointing out that you didn't have to agree with /everything/ - it was just about which one has the views you supported the most.
Helians receive quests from Chiconis for the remaining levels. Instead of passive abilities, they are rewarded with spells bound to character and dependent on completing the previous quest about the political factions a certain way. I don't know if this is possible - but could a spell require that a certain quest be done, via checking the completed quest window, to scribe it instead of requiring a school? It would allow spells to be scribed only by those who had chosen Helian, or Lunus - or even those who had, say, completed Primal Mastery X. Some spells from the trainers could require Primal Mastery/Tooth and Claw Mastery V. IIRC, Hero's Resolve is gained from a quest, so the quest rewards from the 10-20 levels could go right into your abilities tab instead of the spellbook. Or even abilities tab for Lunus quests, spellbook for Helian quest rewards.
One could take quests from both factions, and both could be completed for the reward, but you just couldn't scribe it if it didn't match. Perhaps the spells/abilities themselves could sell for a decent sum of silver, so that a Lunus dragon could do the Helian quests even if they couldn't use the spells/abilities.
After the quest choosing which political faction was done, every 5 levels or so there'd be more quests from that faction's trainers. Every five means a total of 4 extra 'things' from each trainer. If there are 5 trainers (There probably aren't >_> I'm guessing), there's 20 abilities/spells that distinguish members of the faction from each other. Edit: I think it'd be better, if it's even possible, to require certain quests done instead of requiring a certain amount of a skill or stat, as imo it would require too much figuring out which number was best. That doesn't mean, though, that I'm discounting using stat/skills as a possibility. I just think it'd be too much trouble to do it that way.
Treat the idea as having interchangeable components. Requirements could be based on Primal Master (gives spell damage) instead of Primal Mastery quests, or a little of both, and the same for the tooth and claw versions. Other already existing quests can already be used, such as Hardened Scales. Combinations of Hardened and tc quests or primal quests could provide lots of options for hybrids as well. I know I sort of left hybrids out of the picture in this, as that's a whole other thing.
Edit2: Also didn't consider allowing those who took the helian path a choice between damage dealer or crowd control, or Lunus a choice between tank and melee damage dealer. Didn't want to make /too/ much of a giant wall :)
Summary: Slight alterations to already existing quests that have little effect on character power would take the strain off fitting a lot of content into 10-20 levels, while also providing a basis for all the additional options a dragon could have at those same later levels being added on. Also, the trainers in Dralk and Chiconic are lazy butts and I think we should make more use of 'em.
You are tying combat to lunus/helian, a mistake the early dev's already made and doesn't need to be compounded further. Lunus and Helian are political factions. What ever is done, whatever might be added, should not be tied to political faction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisto
I also would not like anything that is permanent with no way to switch it around if desired.
Don't really see the point of this. It's not much better than Determination as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyndrell
I think that if we go the route of adding to the existing school, that the melee changes are not really necessary. The melee school is very strong as it is. Therefore most if not all of the additions should be for players wanting to play spellcasters. My own thoughts on this were that I didn't like the idea of Dragon's getting a healer class.. the game already has a great Healer school, which should be left for HLR. Spell DPS I can get behind and support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyndrell
A better primal roar would be good, but I think it would need to be more powerful:
Ancient Primal roar
Requirement 1200 primal* + level 100 (The requirement should be primal not power)
reward + 400 power + 400 primal + 10 spell damage (adjusted)
Just guessing at numbers really, would need tested obviously with the existing spells to gauge the effect. I think working with Ancient Primal Roar as the base ability by which the caster gets boosted can greatly simplify making Dragons have a viable caster capability. So in addition, while the big power/primal boost is in effect, Gold Rage should be disabled. One easy way is linking the timers. Give it a 2 hour recycle, 2 hour effect. Once used Gold Rage's recycle timer gets set to 2 hours. This makes it unavailable for 2 hours. The only tech sticking point here that comes to mind, would be what happens if the player logs out, CTD, network disconnection, etc. while using the Ancient Primal Roar ability. Both the Ancient Primal Roar effect, and the timer cooldown on gold rage, would need to "stick" while the toon reconnects. It can still count down towards 0 while they are logged out. But logging back in within the timeframe, both the effect and GR recycle would need to be persistent. Otherwise a player could just relog if they wanted to "cancel" the Ancient Primal Roar. (maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. If both of them "reset" on a logout, the player could just re-use the Ancient Primal Roar ability, or not. The main point of having the long recycle is to lock out Gold Rage).
See above. I don't see the point of these or the need for them if we are adding to the existing school, as they are all melee based. Let's focus on adding things for casters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyndrell
With a primal boost of some sort, the other "caster" type abilities, which I would group at least a SORC type crowd control under, DPS, and maybe some modest improvements to healing (which should happen naturally with a big primal skill boost), could possibly be implemented to require "Ancient Primal Roar" be present to be available. So, let's say we want to give the casters a crowd control mezz similar to Area Mesmerize (SORC), it can have a hoard cost, be a quested for ability, the quest can require Ancient Primal Roar be in effect (Active on the player) to obtain/complete (so that the player is having to play as a spellcaster to get the additional spellcaster abilities), as well as be Active on the player to be able to use. If this is possible, then all of the new additions to DRAG that are caster-centric, could be set up in this way, and would be grayed out unless the player uses Ancient Primal Roar. Once the player does so, these new abilities become usable. Can the tech do this?
If so, then to play the caster style, Gold Rage is basically unavailable for the duration. I think this is a reasonable trade-off, and a way to "add" while also giving "choice". The ability to switch back to a melee playstyle should be built in somehow.
A few new spells might be needed too, but that could be decided later, after testing the existing spells with the power/primal buff, observing the combat capabilities. Maybe one with a short stun, or chain lightning, or one that reduces the targets' speed. Maybe another new spell with some debuffs. Or that could be implemented as a quested for ability. Implement them so that all the new caster toys require Ancient Primal Roar to be active to be usable.
Perhaps you have some suggestions as to how it would actually fit into the game, then? I only tied it to factions because I didn't have a better idea at the moment.Quote:
You are tying combat to lunus/helian, a mistake the early dev's already made and doesn't need to be compounded further. Lunus and Helian are political factions. What ever is done, whatever might be added, should not be tied to political faction.
Yes, some don't like combat and such tied to factions. But it has to fit into the istaria world /somehow/, and factions are the easiest thing. I'd love a new floating hub thingy with new trainers and the whole 9 yards, but workload.
Ok Firstly I made this post without access to istaria, so the requirements might be abit low. and further to this if your going to cancel GR altogether then you need to give the casters something significant in return I'd like to bring up the old Gold surge but lets not unbury that beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyndrell
Perhaps a Primal cast II (4 casts) with a Primal requirement of 1700 or a draconic perfect cast?
However referencing the determination and primal roar i scaled it to be the Next tier of the previous Buff. Not to over whelming also
Both the reach and the galewind are PRIMAL! not TnC which was why i selected them specifically
I like the primal cast idea, seems a natural progression for a caster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyndrell
I thought Primal Roar's boost should be bigger to give a nice overall damage increase. That was to make up for Gold Rage being unavailable. The Gold Burst that was on blight for testing years ago I suppose would be the other option to make up for not having Gold Rage available. But that feels like more of the same. If we boost primal and power, then all of the spell lineup should be enhanced. Which is probably more exciting.
The Dragon's Reach idea you had I could see being added, although the range should be like 60 or 65. Prime Bolt teched with range V has a range of 55 (more range than our pull ability, silly)... All the new versions of Dragon's Reach they added a few years back... no extra range... Don't see the point of a new one unless they will make it outreach spells. The extra damage is nice but pull's aren't really about the damage.
Galewind being Primal... probably because it uses the games' spell-system instead of the melee system so that it has a bit of range. But it still feels like a melee ability to me. Increasing it's damage would be a good thing, but do it also for melee players. Galewind has such a long cast timer for simply average damage, it is very rarely used (by me anyway). A boost to Galewind would make it relevant. But since it feels like its a melee ability, I would ask this be granted to all dragons regardless of combat style. If it becomes quite nice, could add a hoard cost to it. Seems like Galewind should be a small aoe effect as well.
Something else the caster dragon could use would be a form of perfect spell.
Allathos Focus
gives spells 100% chance to hit.
lasts 35 seconds
2 minute recycle
hoard cost: 1000
Edit:You know, thinking about it, this same thing could be done for a much more powerful version of Determination. So using the Ancient Determination idea, tweaked a little bit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaran
Ancient Determination
2 hour recycle
lasts 2 hours
shares a timer with Gold Rage
requires 1200 t&c
grants:
+400 tooth&claw, +400 strength, +10 damage delay adjusted.
In this way, a Dragon can choose to give up gold rage, in exchange for more overall damage with the other melee abilities.
Perhaps some new melee ideas and abilities can be thought up as well, follow the same idea I had for the Ancient Primal Roar, where the Ancient Determination is required to be able to utilize the new melee combat options.
Pro's:
Players can choose the existing playstyle by not using Ancient Primal Roar or Ancient Determination, and retain Gold Rage is it is. (The existing Determination and Primal Roar abilities would need left on the player even after obtaining the new versions. The Ancient Determination effect would overwrite the original Determination if the ability was used, same for Ancient Primal Roar/Primal Roar)
Players can choose a more focused playstyle for melee or spells, but the choice is not permanent.
New classes or schools not needed.
Existing quests and Lore remain intact, shortening dev work on this venture, speeding implementation.
The existing DRAG playstyle remains available should any issues with the new abilities arise.
Choices!
I may be having a sudden brain freeze moment, but what would need to change about the existing dragon adventure school if new prestige school 'bolstering' choices only available to level 100 dragons were made available as outlined in the suggestion I put forward? I can totally understand the need to change the existing school if the prerequisite for joining a new school is level 30 as suggested by Awdz, but I do not understand what needs to change if you're looking to extend the dragon end-game by building on top of level 100 ancient. I hope you can clarify this because without us understanding what needs to change then we might as well stop offering suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmonGwareth
Another thing to consider with this option is that a few changes and a little bit added on top of the existing school is not going to bring anyone back that left. They're minor changes, they aren't big, aren't really marketable, and don't have the appeal of larger-scale revamps that add a lot to the game.
My concerns are similar to Amon's on this one. Why do people leave? Boredom. Small player base. Some other reason. For me small changes won't make me come back because everything else is basically the same. I think that adding content on top of current content is not a good idea simply because how many hours could it be worth? Some content I came back for a year ago lasted me only a week and I stuck around longer for friends but after that I was bored again because I had done all of the build up. I don't suggest this way at all and I encourage anyone who does to look at why you try different games in the first place and I'm sure you'll come to an answer similar to mine that things are nice when they change.
IFFFFFF and I do mean IFFFF I had to go this way a possible idea would be to shuffle the current abilities to have class requirements. They could still be quested for like someone said earlier but just unavailable to use unless the necessary class is joined. Good biped example is poison arrow. Useable only by elar or ranger?, its quested, yet stays in the ability pane until the qualifications are met. I would then at level 100 suggest either new abilities require a specific skill level to use (much like crafting if that is possible) or branch off the lunus/helian factions to allow for a more specialized dragon however unchangeable to the other sides. Again technically we already have 2 classes of dragon being helian and lunus. We just need to expand on them.
Guaran I do not wish you to ever leave this land who would supply vengeance to the new blood ,For crien out loud I think you where beating the blights face in before i was . That being said I do kinda want something like this to happen . We will not "Loose " our existing dragons it willl just not be able to get the Higher rateing so nothing should change for us old farts unwilling to make new chars
lightning clawQuote:
Guaran I do not wish you to ever leave this land who would supply vengeance to the new blood
CoooliosQuote:
Why do people leave? Boredom. Small player base. Some other reason
awdzQuote:
Suggested requirements: DRA 30 or whatever level makes sense. If school quests require flying, maybe require adult status.
Id say 500 Strength and 500 tooth and claw, 12+ damage Delay... Cause gold rage for me hits for 5000+Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaran
This thread is probably dead but i'd love to see a "Shamen" type of Dragon, tapping into spirit magic. The Plague Dragon if you will :)