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Thread: To the Players and EI

  1. #1

    Default To the Players and EI

    The bashing has got to stop. The negativity has got to stop. Its one thing to be concerned about the future of the game, concerned over billing issues, concerned over your little piece of the pie but, it’s altogether different to just go off the deep end and bash for the sake of bashing alone.

    The result of the bashing is new set of rules and moderation that is far stricter than what we are used to. And people are surprised or upset? Look at it this way….Is Exxon Oil going to sit idly by and let people post something on their website that says “Exxon sucks! Exxon is price gouging at the pump! Nobody at Exxon can spell!� I think not. Should EI be any different? And the fact that they are game company makes not one iota of difference. They are a company, providing a service to their customers, and they certainly aren’t going to sit idly by and let people say whatever comes to mind in whatever fashion they choose at a website owned by the company!

    The cold, hard facts are these…EI now owns Horizons. It is their property to do with as they see fit. Their motivation is profit. If they can accommodate our wants and desires and be profitable they will. If not, then we have want we have and we either get used to it or move on. And if we do move on, so what? Pride and ego drives some players to think that their absence will be the undoing of the game. If that wasn’t so pathetic it would be laughable. Other people will take their place.

    Now I’ve been pretty much just sitting back and watching as events unfold. I’ve noticed some things, trends if you will, leading up to the sale and a couple of things after the sale. Mind you, my deductive reasoning may not jibe with others but, well here it is:

    E3, shortly after E3 I started to notice a different tone in the posts and replies of some of the old Tulga Devs. Some terseness, maybe even a little testiness. And after E3 came all the changes most of us detest. The decimated golem spawns, the scarcity of t6 resources etc. Was the sale of Hz being contemplated even then? If so, were we being set up? Was any prospective buyer being set up? Who, if anyone, can answer this? Who is to blame?

    Then the sale actually happened. It seems to me that EI was unprepared to take over Hz. Why is that? How much time did they have to prepare? How much help was offered by the seller? How much work is involved in taking over the operation of a game of this complexity? Me personally, I think Tulga told EI to buy it now or forget it. I can’t offer any proof but, the confusion and mistakes made since the sale bear all the hallmarks of something that happened very quickly and with little time for preparation.

    The communication between player base and EI has been quite the bone of contention. AE/TG communicated regularly. EI does not. We got spoiled by the previous owners. Does this make EI wrong? Absolutely not, it makes them different. That seems to be how they prefer to do business. If so, that’s fine by me. I can’t find anything, anywhere that states that EI is under any obligation to communicate with the player base in any fashion. That they do is, IMO, a courtesy. And the general response to any EI communication has been far from courteous. Small wonder they don’t communicate much. If I got my head ripped off every time I said something I think I would just shut up and go away.

    The bottom line is this: Horizons has new owners. The game BELONGS to EI. We pay a monthly fee for the Privilege of PLAYING the game. We don’t own it; we have no say in anything that happens to it. It IS NOT our property. Some of us feel our input should carry as much weight as that of the owners. Ego is rampant. Those same ego driven players are the biggest bashers, their status as big imaginary fish in a small imaginary pond has vanished and they are lashing out like a spoiled child that suddenly realized a toy he never played with or cared about is gone. Regardless of how long any of us have been customers; our value is $12.95 per month. That’s it, not very pleasant to consider but, you strip away everything else and that’s all that’s left. Will the game survive? I don’t know, I hope so. Will EI make it what it can be? I don’t know, I hope so. Will all the bashing help? Most certainly not. I can’t help but be left with the impression that some players would bash ********** ************ Reincarnate if he bought the game.

    I will continue to log and play as long as I find enjoyment in doing so. Where the game goes from here is out of my, or any player’s, control. We can voice our desires but, in the end, they are just that…desires.

    If I could have an influence on EI, I would say this: The game is yours; I realize you will do with it as you see fit in order to see a profit. I would ask that do what you can to roll back the most previous patch, less the price Nadia increase. I would ask that you continue to seek out and fix bugs. And I would ask that you look into developing a new client and a new engine for the game. I understand new client/engine is time consuming and expensive. However, I think the rewards in improved performance would increase the playability of the game thereby drawing in more customers. Further development might then be fiscally possible. I would suggest that EI study very carefully history of the game in the hands of its previous owners. AE/TG had this game for many years and could not make it work. Don’t make the same mistakes they did. It would be a sad epitaph for Horizons: Empire of Istaria if it read “How do you make a small fortune with an MMO? You start with a large fortune and then you buy Horizons�
    Last edited by Dravatar; August 10th, 2006 at 07:47 AM. Reason: removed speculative and potentially inflammatory statements
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  2. #2
    Kallis
    Guest

    Default

    Negativity isnt going to make things worse or better, but i do agree on staying posititive.

  3. #3

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    Well here goes my first post on the subject.
    Well said Kwinn.

  4. #4
    Turgod
    Guest

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    Aye Kwinn, I agree whole-heartedly.

    I do hope the game has a future and that's why I came back.

  5. #5

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    *does his best to refrain, as Kwinn might beat the bloody hell out of him... But he finds it worth it!*

    *Tackle hugs Kwinn... then goes about his daily chores*

    Well said sir! =)

  6. #6

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    Well said indeed, Kwinn!

    It appears to me that the "new" forum posting rules are little, if any, different from those implemented during Tulga's stewardship. In other words, constructive criticism is always welcome. Mindless, endless bashing is not.

    And I think the Horizons community is certainly wise and mature enough to know the difference.
    Before you criticize anyone, walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticize him, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have his shoes.

  7. #7

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    Agree Kwinn.
    L100 Hatchling of the Realm of Order

  8. #8

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    Sorry folks. I posted what I mean to post. I prefer something edited and partially rewritten by a moderator not to have my named signed to it, so I have chosen to remove my post in its entirety.
    Last edited by Alladania; August 10th, 2006 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Updated Quote and response in regards to op moderation.

  9. #9

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    Kwinn, I'm a very pragmatic sort. I don't tend to worry about stuff that I have no control over, and so agree with the essence of what you said.

    I will play slight devils advocate here, to express my PERSONAL view of what happened. My ONE major problem with how they have handled things so far is their unresponsiveness to us as a community, on the boards and through the login messages. I have YET to see an acknowledgement or a statement about the unsecured contact information. Menkure DID have a response on the boards and for that I applaud them, and hope that is the start of a good trend.

    A lot of their handling of the community post sale was unfortunate. I saw the boards going downhill pretty quickly and every passing day of incommunication just fed the flames. I was hoping that the mods would consolidate and start modding, but it appeared that EI didn't have the bandwidth to spare for fire control at that point and that the Mods didn't have a direction for it, and it kept getting more and more out of hand. I feared the worst, that the boards would go a way because maybe it was still on Tulga's Dime The response when it did come a week or two later was a poor choice. To be honest I almost decided to give up on the boards and possibly even the game at that point. Out of my range of posts during the lock down, the one that made it and didn't get deleted was my Chocolate Grouk Tail post hehe.

    Anyways, I think that people got hot headed, and out of line as you said, but it wasn't entirely unexpected considering it was feeding itself and officially there was nothing to calm the masses. Now we are left with the truth as you said, that EI OWNS the game, like it or not. I just hope that they think through their future actions enough to avoid more negative publicity. The whole community board thing and GUComic's response even made it through to Blues News. This is stuff people REMEMBER. It's the small missteps that lead to the general failure of major projects.

    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  10. #10

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    Though a long read, a pretty good one based on observations of what we should know as fact.

    The only problems that exist are: we are not all equal in the way we handle putting years into our "entertainment" to have it dissolved due to possible poor decisions on a company's part.

    Though we don't "own" Horizons, we pay the bills. We "rent" our "virtual space" that we live in, and to some... this virtual land exists almost as real as the one we presently breath in. I know a few that this IS their life and would be very sad if their escapism is removed.

    Thus the angry words, the battle lines drawn, and the negative feelings brought forth. Anger management classes exist for this very reason!

    My bottom line is "trust"
    Someone who wants to show me that they are on top of the situation, gives communication to me about what is being done to remedy my problems, increase my productivity, or increase the value added entertainment that I pay for, then I am a happy person.

    Things have not been going smoothly for EI. There is a side of the battle that would love to see them fail. There are die hard players that want to see them succeed even if they have to look the other way at huge mistakes in communications and secure billing. And... then there are people like me... I am paid up for the year... I don't need to re-enter my billing info for a while, and the game is "functional" at the moment.

    But I do feel for the friends that I have made online, and those that will be leaving because of how they feel... they have that right to do so, but I hope it's the right decision and not a knee jerk reaction to the sale.

    To EI... if you want to make this game go forward, you must listen to us... we might be right... we might be wrong... but in the end... we ARE your customer base. We look for things.... things to make us go
    Justa Mirage: Ranger 100 / Healer 92 / Carpentry 100 / Confectioner 100 / Fletching 92 / Weaver 62 / Gatherer 34
    Flatspin: Ancient Lunus Dragon 100 / Craft 100 / Lairshaping 100

  11. #11
    Dravatar
    Guest

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    In a previous incarnation of her post, Alladania mentioned that "It's quite possible that neither side is blameless in what has been a somewhat messy transition (at least as far as we can tell from the outside)."

    The only possible word is can say to this is:

    Bingo!

    I really don't care whose fault(s) or mistake(s) any of this was. I just want the problems fixed, the game to continue and the community to heal.
    Last edited by Dravatar; August 10th, 2006 at 04:00 PM.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwinn
    The communication between player base and EI has been quite the bone of contention. AE/TG communicated regularly. EI does not. We got spoiled by the previous owners. Does this make EI wrong? Absolutely not, it makes them different. That seems to be how they prefer to do business. If so, that’s fine by me. I can’t find anything, anywhere that states that EI is under any obligation to communicate with the player base in any fashion. That they do is, IMO, a courtesy. And the general response to any EI communication has been far from courteous. Small wonder they don’t communicate much. If I got my head ripped off every time I said something I think I would just shut up and go away.
    Nowhere does it say that to own an MMO you have to communicate with customers. However, nowhere does it say that to own an MMO you have to have customers either! The two tend to go together. THe majority of people were always friendly and polite with the former owners because we respected how much they valued our opinion and made an effort to discern it. No such relationship exists with EI.

    What have we to go on to judge them besides their secretive planning, their blantent censorship of forums which are FOR the players, not EI. Yes - the owners all work together under the same company, they have no need of these forums. The forums, I say again, are FOR the players. To censor the forums is to censor the playerbase and to say "We don't care about your opinion" Sure, they have every right to ignore my opinion, but I shall then in turn excersie my right to not play their game. And the last thing we have to go on to judge EI?

    I came into the merger with an open mind and optimistic attidude, but EI has not given me any reason to keep it. In fact, in everything they have given me as a way to measure them against TG, and every other company I have payed to play their game, they have fallen short.

    I ask you: what has EI done right since they got here?
    Hiko - Former Defender of Shadow
    100 Knight of Creation Hybrid
    -= Disciples =-
    BOYCOTTING THE SUMMONED SHIELD OF CREATION AS OF JULY 17TH, 2006

  13. #13

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    Well said Kwinn, my feelings exactly

  14. #14

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    Your correct Alla, we all want the game to survive. Many of us have dfferences in how things should be done and when our trust is given. Some hand there trust over at the drop of a hat and others require that it be earned.

    As far as slamming yes there is no reason for it. Its not any one person or place or companys fault.

    If we are to be objective then these slams need to stop. That includes the statement Ray gave about billing, that TG is at fault and wont give up imformation. I personally I have no idea if thats true or not, but I certainly am not going to take ones persons word that it is. That sort of business practice is not needed here. Lets just simply state that we are having some issues and leave it at that.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiko
    Nowhere does it say that to own an MMO you have to communicate with customers. However, nowhere does it say that to own an MMO you have to have customers either! The two tend to go together. THe majority of people were always friendly and polite with the former owners because we respected how much they valued our opinion and made an effort to discern it. No such relationship exists with EI.?
    The respect you mention was earned. AE/TG earned it over a period of years. EI has had it far less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiko
    What have we to go on to judge them besides their secretive planning, their blantent censorship of forums which are FOR the players, not EI. Yes - the owners all work together under the same company, they have no need of these forums. The forums, I say again, are FOR the players. To censor the forums is to censor the playerbase and to say "We don't care about your opinion" Sure, they have every right to ignore my opinion, but I shall then in turn excersie my right to not play their game...
    Secretive Planning? Are you privy to something we don't know, perhaps?

    Yes, the forums are for the players. They are for the player to use them constructively for the betterment of the community and the game. That's not what was happening. There is a lot of talk about free speech on this and I'm not real sure some know exactly what that entails. Free speech does not absolve you of the consequences of what you say.

    TG didn't inact every suggestion made by the players. That's ignoring your opinion, too. Do you call that censorship as well? They didn't even respond to every suggestion saying it was a worthwhile idea or not. Personally, I wouldn't expect them to.

    You always have the right to not play the game for whatever reason(s) you choose. You don't even have to wait for one, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiko
    And the last thing we have to go on to judge EI?

    I came into the merger with an open mind and optimistic attidude, but EI has not given me any reason to keep it. In fact, in everything they have given me as a way to measure them against TG, and every other company I have payed to play their game, they have fallen short.

    I ask you: what has EI done right since they got here?
    The shards are still up. You can still play the game so apparently they're paying the electric bill. They've hired staff.

    Don't misunderstand me. I'm by no means saying that there isn't room for improvement. I'm not happy about the billing problems. I didn't like the fact that a bottom line sold the game. I really don't like the fact that our community is picking, poking and jabbing at itself. Is there some respect and trust that must be earned? Absolutely.

    I have seen some positive steps though. As long as I can log in and play, there is hope for this game and community and I chose to hold on to that as long as I can.
    Flsssssh Rsssssst
    The appointed "Rhyming Rhapsodizer" of Blight
    Former Guild Leader of Blight's Conclave of Shadows

  16. #16

    Default Fleshroast

    I heartedly agree with you. My stance is, as long as I am able to log in, today, that is what counts, for me. When Horizons got sold, I hit the epitomy of the deep hole, the one where you can't even touch the top. I don't look at yesterday, I don't look at tomorrow. I just am thankful, very much so, to be able to log in today.


    And yes, I hate seeing our board community being totally divided and split. I hope, one day, we will all be as strong as we were once before, meanwhile, I will take, one day at a time.

  17. #17

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    Guess what? Every reply to this post and to the replies has been thoughtful and polite. Some agreed with me, some did not. And we did it without putting our fingers on the flamethrower trigger! Ain't that sumthin? Kinda chokes a body up don't it?

    This is the community I so fondly remember...
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  18. #18

    Default Just a reminder here please

    Its great that we can discuss issues of Horizons, a meeting of the minds so to speak. However, please remember, that any concerns about EI, should be taken directly up with them, via email or board pms. We must break away from slamming them on the boards, and post responsibly. Not only that, drudging up hard feelings doesn't promote the spirit of our community.

    Thank you

  19. #19

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    Flesh, Everyone has a different of opinion. There are many issues here and each one of us reacts different to them. Some issues mean nothing for some and mean the world to others.

    Some people are just glad that they can log in today. They could careless who owns the game or what gets done to the game. no matter what company owned HZ, they would jump off the golden gate bridge if they were asked just to log in.

    Others love the game and are happy to be able to still log in, but are concerned for its future and would like more communication then what has been given. And they don't like nerf and such.

    And some others would like to be able to log in and see there billing info and accounts, and may not care about logging into the game.

    The whole point is that everyone is different yet all have a concern with HZ.

    What I would like to point out is that each one has a different threshold level or issue that they are more emotional about. If you look back Hiko was in full support of EI. He was willing to give them a chance. He was always constructive in his posts and such. But now he was affected by a change that was significant for him and he disliked it. That is his personal opinon and feeling.

    I think the lesson learned here is make absolutely sure of a change before you make them. Think of the consequences or ramifications of that change. So far there has been two changes and a complete reversal of those changes within days. That in itself makes people question whats going on. Thats human nature

    Jayne

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dravatar
    I really don't care whose fault(s) or mistake(s) any of this was. I just want the problems fixed, the game to continue and the community to heal.
    That to me is the true gist of it. Mistakes have been made, and huge ones at that. Hopefuly EI has learned and will adjust in a positive manner, and we can all get back to enjoying what we are already paying for.

    That doesn't mean sticking your head in the sand, or following the herd, or breaking out the can of gas and a book of matches. If they do harmful things then call them on it, just like we have. But if they do something right then be sure to give credit where credit is due, too.

    It would be real nice if EI did things right for a while before they set off their next powder keg, though. I am not sure I have the patience to wait through another one.

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    - Albert Einstein

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