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Thread: Epic mobs and epic content

  1. #1

    Default Epic mobs and epic content

    Let me thank every one of you for taking the time to discuss this topic here on the forums. If there is one thing we can tell from this thread and others, it is that you are all passionate about Istaria and about gaming. And we are glad we are able to bring you a game that inspires such passion!

    Now, some serious issues have been brought up and we wanted to take the time to address them. First, we want to acknowledge that much of this mess is our fault. We introduced the boss mobs and the epic weapons and we failed you in two ways: 1) We introduced epic mobs and epic weapons without a well-defined plan for how they might affect the game and also how we might continue to add them into the future and 2) we failed to continue adding them due to several unforeseen events over the past 2 - 3 years. What we did get right, we feel, is that the epic gear introduced did not take away from the best crafted gear. We never want to introduce gear that drops as loot which is better than the best items that a crafter can make.

    There are no easy solutions to this issue because everyone's idea of what constitutes fun and good gameplay is different. Some players enjoy the challenge of fighting the big mobs every day, some players enjoy it once in a while, others don't even care as long as an epic mob never shows up on their plot or at their favorite haunt.

    Whatever your style of play, you expect us to continue to work to bring you new experiences, whatever form that may take. Along the way, it is also our job to try to make the parts of the game that aren't that fun, better.

    We believe that we can work together with you to improve this situation. You see, it isn't that there aren't enough epic mobs in the game for everyone to enjoy fighting them. It is that some of the encounters are pointless (because they are instant death or because their loot just plain sucks) or that they are badly broken or a myriad of reasons. It is our job to fix this. Not by taking away fun from one group, but rather by adding to the game and trying to make the fun available to everyone.

    I believe this can be achieved with several steps:

    1. Make all of the existing epic mobs worth fighting. This means no more instant-kills (if we can help it), no more insane swarms of mobs surrounding them, and better loot.

    2. Make epic weapons truly epic and worth having. These weapons will still fall into the category of "not better than the best crafted weapon, as we know that crafters are of central importance to Istaria. But one of the things the crafting system has going for it that dropped loot won't ever have is how it can be customized for the needs of a specific individual.

    3. Create loot for epic mobs that is desired and is not just weapons. Epic armor? Rare resources or techniques or spells?

    4. Develop a plan for how future epic encounters will be developed so that we don't run into this type of issue again with future content.

    Together, I believe we can address the gameplay issues and turn this negative situation into a positive. And I hope you will all join with us in making this a reality.

    Thanks!

    Virtrium

  2. #2

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarië AncalÃ**mon View Post
    3. Create loot for epic mobs that is desired and is not just weapons. Epic armor? Rare resources or techniques or spells?
    An immense Thank You! to VI for listening once again.

    On the particular part that I've quoted, here's an idea:
    Techniques that can be applied to Player crafted armor (Flaming Weapon, Withered Bane style armor techs). Make it something that is completely different from presents techs, or a superior version of normal techs.

    Super Thanks again!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by GalemThawn View Post
    An immense Thank You! to VI for listening once again.

    On the particular part that I've quoted, here's an idea:
    Techniques that can be applied to Player crafted armor (Flaming Weapon, Withered Bane style armor techs). Make it something that is completely different from presents techs, or a superior version of normal techs.

    Super Thanks again!
    Nice idea, like one time only use techs like the flaming weapon you stated, or forms with that you can make such drag'n'drop techs.

    Edit: Forgot something to add, a possible solution would be also those loot mechanics you used at fafnir and Dankor. Every group member gets his/her individual loot table, if there is nothing in it, your're unlucky. Next time you get maybe one or two. But the weapon pieces should not drop for everyone in the group, those "epic" pieces should drop rare but drop.
    Last edited by Takora Drakan; April 25th, 2008 at 07:55 PM.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Ah well done !

    Its good to know that the things are being addressed quite quick as the new Unity players are finding their homes on either Chaos or Order (or even Blight) and getting settled.

    Awesome job and awesome support =)

    And just little Idea for the "epic techs" - eg. if tech applies 35 strength, have it set on random value from 32 to 37. That way there is gonna be surprise effect, items will be more unique, and if the difference pool is tiny, then even with hitting the smallest number, the product willl have the desired quality. Such "surprised" features could bring more interest and fun/joy into crafting?

    Kind regards and best of luck,
    TheGolden

  5. #5

    Smile Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Thank you Vi
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  6. #6
    Member Vlisson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    a change would be really nice

    but i dont know how you want to enhance the high lvl crafter to exceed an epic loot item/spell/armor...

    i would love new techs/items...

    and yes pls stop the instant kill ^^ the new dps is not funny with such enemies ^^

  7. #7
    Member Zexoin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarië AncalÃ**mon View Post
    These weapons will still fall into the category of "not better than the best crafted weapon, as we know that crafters are of central importance to Istaria. But one of the things the crafting system has going for it that dropped loot won't ever have is how it can be customized for the needs of a specific individual.
    What if the best weapon is a triple socketed one ? I mean, with the new T6 crystals, some epic weapons look pretty weak.

  8. #8
    Member Vlisson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    i hope they wont compare epic stuff with triple socket items (the sockets have to be filled with hunted crystals)

    i hope there will be stronger techs that a crafter can use on your weapons! tech slots are not powerfull only if you have the right crystals.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    I have always wondered why blighted loot couldn't come with the chance of having 1 socket for those items that can have sockets.

    How about allowing crafters to make techs (like armor/weapon dye kits) that can be "added" to the epic items, thus improving it. A weapons crafter doesn't only need to make weapons, but enhancement kits for already created stuff.

    For example: Player gets "Epic Weapon" with "one 'enhancement' slot" for having a tech put on it. The tech could be a socket, it could be any of the regular techs the game provides that will go on weapons, or it could be something totally new. The blacksmith can create a kit, that consumes an unscribed version of the tech (which means a cool way to use up all those stocked up forms in your library no one wants), or if that's not good, just have the blacksmith get the comps for that tech, along with a new reagent, and slap a kit together so the player can add it to whatever weapon he wants (this would work for armor also)

    Also an example: A tier V item can have 3 techs. Craft an item with 2 techs, and allow every unused tech slot the ability to be added at a later time instead of "at creation" this has been proven to work with Dye kits.

    Epic items should require some sort of recharge kit like blighted weapons, creating more economy for crafters to make consumables.

    Epic mob loot can be done like Gritus Maximus, if you kill GM, you don't get a carapace. If you are a dragon on the quest, you get one. Anyone can form a group and take out an epic mob right now, quest or not, and get the loot. I would suggest that you need to speak to an NPC who then flags you so you can loot the mob, no matter who gets the kill, for the quest piece you need.

    Right now, the only thing a player can interact with in the game are NPCs, corpses, and resource nodes. There are no chests, no loose items laying around. Perhaps if everyone gets a key off the epic mob to unlock a chest, which then gives each player a reward, this might be a good solution to certain problems.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarië AncalÃ**mon View Post
    Let me thank every one of you for taking the time to discuss this topic here on the forums. If there is one thing we can tell from this thread and others, it is that you are all passionate about Istaria and about gaming. And we are glad we are able to bring you a game that inspires such passion!
    Oh boy. Does that mean this is a call to "stop discussing the epic mob camping topic"?

    Now, some serious issues have been brought up and we wanted to take the time to address them. First, we want to acknowledge that much of this mess is our fault.
    Well, it can't be anyone else's fault, but at least you all aren't hiding from the responsibility.

    We introduced the boss mobs and the epic weapons and we failed you in two ways: 1) We introduced epic mobs and epic weapons without a well-defined plan for how they might affect the game and also how we might continue to add them into the future and 2) we failed to continue adding them due to several unforeseen events over the past 2 - 3 years.
    Well, the first part amounts to not having any kind of game balance model, and having the silly idea to copy WoW and other MMOs certain of the now-long-gone devs played at the time. The second part can't really be helped, and can't really be blamed on anyone. Just circumstance. Sucks, but there it is.

    What we did get right, we feel, is that the epic gear introduced did not take away from the best crafted gear. We never want to introduce gear that drops as loot which is better than the best items that a crafter can make.
    Well, some of the epic gear does work better than standard crafted gear. Boar's Hide Masks, for example.

    That said, I don't really care so much about that, as long as there is and remains a way for people to obtain such items going forward. I also think that epic loot should involve crafters, and never be just usable at drop time (except for things like crystals and similar).

    There are no easy solutions to this issue because everyone's idea of what constitutes fun and good gameplay is different. Some players enjoy the challenge of fighting the big mobs every day, some players enjoy it once in a while, others don't even care as long as an epic mob never shows up on their plot or at their favorite haunt.
    While that may be true, that really isn't the issue that people are really on about, for the most part. Camping a scarce resource, in this case, the Epic mobs, for their drops, and having certain people/groups monopolizing said spawns is/has been at issue with most folks. Not the drops themselves, not necessarily the insta-deaths (though I agree those kinda suck), and definitely not the level of challenge involved, nor any requirement to participate. Just that, being a scarce resource, they are easily monopolized by a few people.

    Even in a group, there are issues. One of the things that Guild Wars did right was random drop assignment. IE, each piece of epic/rare loot is randomly assigned to one of the players in the party. Unfortunately, that applies even if there are multiple epic drops, and it is possible for one person to get lucky and have all the good loot assigned to them. However, the nice thing about GW is that it is instanced, and you can immediately go back and do the instance again and again, making it just a matter of time before luck goes your way.

    Without instances, the problem of monopolization manifests itself, and in particularly ugly ways.

    Whatever your style of play, you expect us to continue to work to bring you new experiences, whatever form that may take. Along the way, it is also our job to try to make the parts of the game that aren't that fun, better.
    Good. Let's hope that there is more than lip service being paid to that effort. Only time and effort will tell.

    We believe that we can work together with you to improve this situation.
    Make effort to engage us in a dialogue, find ways to incorporate our ideas and suggestions (or better ones based on the feedback), and that will most likely happen.

    You see, it isn't that there aren't enough epic mobs in the game for everyone to enjoy fighting them.
    Actually, I think that is part of the problem. It's kinda hard to enjoy fighting something you never get to see, because of the camping situation and long spawn timers.

    It is that some of the encounters are pointless (because they are instant death or because their loot just plain sucks) or that they are badly broken or a myriad of reasons.
    That part is true, but that is also a pervasive issue in many places.

    It is our job to fix this. Not by taking away fun from one group, but rather by adding to the game and trying to make the fun available to everyone.
    Well, let me be the first to say that, if it ultimately is for the betterment of the game, I am all for "taking away", even if it is a bitter pill for me to swallow. "Adding to" is good at times, but a good developer knows the right tool to use for the job. Sometimes it is the Buff Wand, sometimes it is the Nerf Hammer.

    1. Make all of the existing epic mobs worth fighting. This means no more instant-kills (if we can help it), no more insane swarms of mobs surrounding them, and better loot.
    OK, I can go for this. I don't necessarily mind "instant kills", if it is like the penultimate spike of the mob, and it cannot be performed that way more than once during a battle, or happens every battle. IE, it should be a combination of abilities and attacks that aren't always used in that combination.

    2. Make epic weapons truly epic and worth having. These weapons will still fall into the category of "not better than the best crafted weapon, as we know that crafters are of central importance to Istaria. But one of the things the crafting system has going for it that dropped loot won't ever have is how it can be customized for the needs of a specific individual.
    a) Involve crafters in the process of making an epic loot usable.
    b) Crafted equipment tends to be generally good over a large set of applications. Epic items can be superior, but their useful application set should be proportionally smaller.

    3. Create loot for epic mobs that is desired and is not just weapons. Epic armor? Rare resources or techniques or spells?
    Yes, epic items should cover the vast majority of possible useful items in Istaria. At the very least, they should either drop components for making said items, or be part of quests for making said items.

    4. Develop a plan for how future epic encounters will be developed so that we don't run into this type of issue again with future content.
    Yes, it is way past time for a balance model, and a set of content creation guidelines to reduce the occurrence of flawed game design issues.

    Together, I believe we can address the gameplay issues and turn this negative situation into a positive. And I hope you will all join with us in making this a reality.
    Let's hope so! You've opened the door. Let's see if we can walk through it now.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Well when it comes to instant kills i might tend to disagree. Like take Relkar for example. I dotn know anyone who can survive a GR from him. That being said, because he is a dragon it should be expected for people to know that he has a very powerful GR. Lootwise i think he needs improvement. Considering how tough he is compared to SoG and Valkor, his tail scale is joke. I think some monsters need powerful attacks to keep them difficult to fight.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    I know that this is a personal thing that applies to no one else in the game, but Epic Crossbow:P. Actually I like set pieces.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by gopher65 View Post
    I know that this is a personal thing that applies to no one else in the game, but Epic Crossbow:P.
    Sounds like a good item for the giant killer gophers to drop.
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  14. #14
    Member Vlisson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    what priority does this change has on your to-do-list?

    will you make polls? look for player feedback on this?

    add on: whats the use of rares?

    1) be uber
    2) be cool and fluff
    3) be there
    4) be real rare and something special
    5) look great and unique

    i like 4+5 and i think if the rares wont be uber then the farming wouldnt be this problem?

    i hope Istaria wont get a place like DDO where you have to farm Quest X million times to get uber item A without you are a gimp
    Last edited by Vlisson; April 26th, 2008 at 08:48 AM. Reason: add on ^^

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    In Guild Wars (using the example I know well), Uber-rare "epic" items are really no better than the best items you can make with upgrades on collector weapons, they just have a unique "skin" (model/textures) and look super cool.

    For the lootwhores, they are great; for the powergamers, they are meh. However, GW doesn't bother pandering to powergamers. Everyone gets the same thing, pretty much.

    Guild Wars seems to be about more "bling" as a reward for effort, rather than unbalancing their game with more power.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    How about an agreement that the 1st full group of people at an epic get's to do the fight, nomatter the guild? If someone's got the patience to sit at Reklar's for 14 hours, then kudos to them and they deserve to be in the hunt. I've rarely seen 10 chars sitting out there for that long though. If was done this way, no one could claim unfairness - it would just be a question of who's got the most patience.

    Of course, the problem here is that people can be invited to groups long before they're there...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by Amerelium View Post
    How about an agreement that the 1st full group of people at an epic get's to do the fight, nomatter the guild? If someone's got the patience to sit at Reklar's for 14 hours, then kudos to them and they deserve to be in the hunt. I've rarely seen 10 chars sitting out there for that long though. If was done this way, no one could claim unfairness - it would just be a question of who's got the most patience.

    Of course, the problem here is that people can be invited to groups long before they're there...
    Spotters... Whiskers... Alerters... how ever you want to call them. If you are logged out in the spot, healers and all, and you have one or two dedicated players that take round robin turns watching the epic spawn site, all it takes is an MSN, AIM, Yahoo, ICQ, Phone Text message alert for those involved to get on the game.

    I have noticed, there are certain characters that just stand AFK near portals and occasionally are buffed up, but go nowhere. Now this is innocent enough, but my theory (and is probably true) is they are keeping buffed for when the epic pops and are ready for instant battle without prep time. (just my observations, why 1 character would keep getting buffed every so often by another and never budge an inch for hours and hours raises some questions as to "why"

    I am pretty sure there might be some "available tech" the game designers can use to allow "sharing the epic mob" without having to out damage the overly unbalanced competition.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by Amerelium View Post
    How about an agreement that the 1st full group of people at an epic get's to do the fight, nomatter the guild? If someone's got the patience to sit at Reklar's for 14 hours, then kudos to them and they deserve to be in the hunt. I've rarely seen 10 chars sitting out there for that long though. If was done this way, no one could claim unfairness - it would just be a question of who's got the most patience.

    Of course, the problem here is that people can be invited to groups long before they're there...
    I have to disagree with this. You do not need a full group of 10 to fight the epics. Actually in the case of Valkor the larger the party the greater the detriment when he uses his aoe life leach ability.

    The biggest problem, in my opinion, is the epics are no longer epic. The weapons are only ok. Recklar's items were always only ok in my opinion. The sash being the best item. When it comes to general hunting, a double socketed 2handed weapon with a DCoM, a VDGWC, and the flaming weapon tech will do more damage than a blood sword on standard swings. It is special attacks like critical strike and such where the blood sword comes into its own.

    It has been stated that crafter gear is not to be competed against with Epic gear. So..... let us kill these epic mobs constantly. With the new increase to the DP system I cannot think of any other mobs worth dieing over to such a degree. The game is going on 5 years in age. You have a large population of powerful, competent and competitive players. With the addition of the Unity player base this population is only going to grow larger. We as players need something exciting to cut our teeth on, so to speak.

    Of course this is all just my opinion, but give the Epic mobs thier own spot in ED. Imagine coming upon scene where Reck, Valk, and Sog are all mingling together with their respective minions. Imagine fighting Valk only to have Sog agro in the middle of the fight or another Valk for that matter. Now, in my opinion, that is exciting. That would be worth dieing over. Another benifit to a change like this is it doesn't require major adjustment to the game system itself. Just a tweaking of the spawn location and timer.
    Last edited by Amarie Ancalimon; April 28th, 2008 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Off topic portion removed
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    No, u don't need 10. What I'm talking about is that people that show up are allowed to join, until u got a full group...

  20. #20

    Default Re: Epic mobs and epic content

    Quote Originally Posted by Amerelium View Post
    How about an agreement that the 1st full group of people at an epic get's to do the fight, nomatter the guild? If someone's got the patience to sit at Reklar's for 14 hours, then kudos to them and they deserve to be in the hunt. I've rarely seen 10 chars sitting out there for that long though. If was done this way, no one could claim unfairness - it would just be a question of who's got the most patience.

    Of course, the problem here is that people can be invited to groups long before they're there...
    Sorry, this still does not discorage camping at all.

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