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Thread: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

  1. #1
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    Default Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Just throwing these out there..

    While I'd love to see armor use just go away, could we at least make it a less frustrating stat? Most people I know harbor absolutely no love for it. Classes like Cleric and Reaver, who are known for wearing heavy armor, cannot wear T5 platemail without raising a 10 AU/level class to at least 91. Some classes, like Bloodmage, can't even wear low-end T5 armor at 100 and that seems.. wrong to me. I can understand crafting classes being stuck at T4. Adventure classes not so much.

    Three suggestions I've come up with:

    Allow us to spend training points on AU perhaps? It might take a bite out of a character's stats, but I'm sure many would spend the points to avoid having to level another class practically to 100 just for AU.

    Or change armor so that the low end of a tier, e.g., T5, becomes available at level 80/800 AU, and the upper end at level 90/900 AU. At least this way, a class that gets 8 AU/level can wear the low-end of T5 at 100, and a 9 AU/level class can wear the high-end at 100. Classes with 10 AU/level would still have the advantage of being able to use armor ten or twenty levels earlier.

    Or give every non-prestige class 10 AU/level so that everyone has a class that already fits with their playstyle available for leveling to 100 for the AU. If not every base class, then at least Cleric, as every other class available on the tutorial island has 10 AU/level except Cleric.

    While we're at it, I'd love to see evasion and magic evasion techs. It's odd that we can put training points into these, but tech don't exist for them.
    Last edited by Raptress; December 5th, 2010 at 09:11 AM.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  2. #2

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    hm well the odd levels for both body armor and for shields is frustrating for a player that wants minimal multi-classing so i would agree with lower the adventure school level requirements for shields and body armor down to a even number aka t5 being 80 and 90. Same for the shields since weapons are already even level a new weapon every 5 levels up to lv 95 basically. But if im right in understanding a class like bloodmage as long as the player keeps spiriitist once Bloodmage is 21 the armor use should switch over and be 208 so possible bloodmage to wear t5 padded with lv 20 spiritist, and lv 100 cleric and bloodmage ending up with about 920 armor use once cleric is lv 100.
    As for the magic evasion techs i think that's considered what the Ward techs though they are kind of pathetic in general that a tier 5 warding tech giving +16 to a specific magic type seems to make the those techs undesirable at all
    Last edited by starlight; December 5th, 2010 at 02:54 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    I've asked Amon ingame previously about Evasion, Magic Evasion techs.

    At the time he said he would consider adding them (this was in the last month).

    Edit
    And for an ethereal armor tech
    Chasing
    Chaos Shard
    Scarlet Dawn


  4. #4

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    ... Classes like Cleric and Reaver, who are known for wearing heavy armor, cannot wear T5 platemail without raising a 10 AU/level class to at least 91. Some classes, like Bloodmage, can't even wear low-end T5 armor at 100 and that seems.. wrong to me...
    That's what Scalemail is for. Use it.

    The solution to your question is already in game. Just because no one uses it doesn't mean the whole system needs reworked.

    My vote is against any changes in regards to armor and shield use.

    Evasion Techs, Ethereal Armor Techs (perhaps improove the spirit webbing techs' Ethereal Armor amount?) sound interesting. Like to hear more about that.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    That's what Scalemail is for. Use it.
    Okay, then what about the classes that can't use T5 at all without raising another class?

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  6. #6

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Okay, then what about the classes that can't use T5 at all without raising another class?
    There's t4 armor for that. Armor use is armor use. Any change is just free, unearned armor.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    There's t4 armor for that. Armor use is armor use. Any change is just free, unearned armor.
    Well, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm sorry, but a T5 character being unable to use T5 armor makes no sense to me.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  8. #8

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    OO my favorite kind. Every class has at least 8 armor use or more. The only ones that do not have 9 or 10 are ones like sorcerer, healer, spiritist, and so on. The question is here is it wrong and I must say it isn't for the sole fact that they can hold their own many different ways. Ive looked at every class to see what ones are 8 and they are all ranged classes, healer included. The reason why I agree that they be left alone is because they can all either heal, stun or mes and enemy. And very effectively I might add by looking at the classes. Any class with 8 means theyll use high t4 armor, any with 9 means low t5 and 10 means high t5. I believe its fine the way it is based on that evidence.

    Nawkia
    ^.^ *Speed Demon of order..*

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    But then you can look at Mage and Scout, both of which get 10 AU and are ranged classes. Even beside that, classes are already limited to armor types that have more or less armor on them. Spiritists, who get 8 AU/level, are limited to cloth for example. Mages, a class that is stereotypically meant to be the epitome of squishiness, are too, but they get 10 AU/level?

    I can sort of understand that perhaps a class with 9 AU/level is limited to the lower end armor of T5. But the 8 AU/level classes continue to make no sense to me because being limited to T4 also means being limited to T4 techs, and that can make a big difference. I do not see why a class should be stuck at T4 when a class like Mage is not.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  10. #10

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    But then you can look at Mage and Scout, both of which get 10 AU and are ranged classes. Even beside that, classes are already limited to armor types that have more or less armor on them. Spiritists, who get 8 AU/level, are limited to cloth for example. Mages, a class that is stereotypically meant to be the epitome of squishiness, are too, but they get 10 AU/level?

    I can sort of understand that perhaps a class with 9 AU/level is limited to the lower end armor of T5. But the 8 AU/level classes continue to make no sense to me because being limited to T4 also means being limited to T4 techs, and that can make a big difference. I do not see why a class should be stuck at T4 when a class like Mage is not.
    You're not really including consideration of a key factor here - type of armor that they can wear. Mages get 10 AU but can only wear cloth - the level of protection from that is considerably lower than what rangers get with chain mail from the next lower half-tier. There is a balance of how much protection overall that needs to be considered here. The techs applied are part of that overall protection.

    It makes sense to me that mages can use more magical/tech'd protection where others use hard metal.
    Last edited by awdz; December 6th, 2010 at 11:45 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    I'm against this kind of a change. Armor use is not a STAT, as you
    suggest, but a SKILL that is developed by the training within each
    school.

    If your Adventure training does not include the martial knowledge of
    wearing the heaviest armors possible, then you should not be able
    to wear it. Makes total sense. Druids are tied to nature, thus their
    armor must also be natural - nothing Inorganic. Arcane schools focus
    on channeling the energies around themselves, thus any thick materials
    hinder their skills - Dey no can haz padded cloth. (I'm preaching to
    the Choir, right? )

    If at level 100 a character's Armor Use is not high enough for their
    desires, they have options.

    1- Raise another adventure school that will increase Training in Armor Use.
    2- Decide to maximise protection and fully tech the highest set they can
    possibly wear.
    3- Get "Mobile Armor" to defend them. I.E. Group hunting.


    The Game is Balanced so that each class has their strengths and their
    weaknesses. It is up to you to decide if you want to Multi-class yourself
    or not, but asking to unbalance the game due to a weakness of a class?

    Sorry if my response rubs you wrong, but what you are asking for _is_
    an easy button.


    Andaras

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    I'm against this kind of a change. Armor use is not a STAT, as you suggest, but a SKILL that is developed by the training within each school.
    And Nature, Fire, One-Hand Crush, etc. are all skills just like this, are they not? You can put TPs into these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    Arcane schools focus on channeling the energies around themselves, thus any thick materials hinder their skills - Dey no can haz padded cloth.
    Again, Mages get 10 AU/level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    ..asking to unbalance the game due to a weakness of a class?
    I wasn't pinpointing any specific classes. Any classes mentioned are just examples. However, the idea that each biped adventure class is balanced as things are is not one that I agree with.

    As to other concerns brought up, I will allow that changing the requirements on armor for their use might be close to an "easy button." But what about the other two suggestions?

    Using training points means you have to sacrifice something else. And AU could be the most expensive thing you could put TPs into, who knows?

    Or how about allowing the base classes to have 10 AU/level? That way, no one has to do anything silly like raise Warrior or Mage to 100 on a totally mystic-based character.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  13. #13

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    I think I'm on the side of changing things...

    What I see is a confusion between Armor Skill and what is wearable by a particular class, so here's my two-cents...

    Eliminate the Armor USe skill altogether and here's why...

    Eight...that is 8 types of armor for each 1/2 tier (1-10, 11-20, etc with 1 tier = 20 levels)

    Fabric: Padded and Cloth
    Leather: Rough and Hardned (Can't remember the two)
    Metal: Chainmail, Scalemail, Ringmail, and Platemail

    Why have 2 deciding factors on what a particular character can wear. K.I.S.S. works in a lot of situations.

    Right now you have an armor use skill x/points per level, and most classes have restrictions to what type of armor they can wear. The latter makes sense, the former not so much...unless tied to strengh (can't see a low-strength character wearing heavy plate).

    One would think that in gaining levels you are learning about ALL the armor you can wear for that particular class. This makes even more sense when you think of classes that can only wear one or even two types of armor (Fabric or Fabric/leather) as there is a lot less to learn about each type of armor (proper fitting, repair, weaknesses, etc).

    In every fantasy book I've ever read, no matter the type of fighter (Bowman, Mage, healer, warrior, etc)...the students are all taught about the armor they can wear...for the armor is just as important if not more so than the weapon. Enemy gets through your armor and your weapon won't do you much good because you'll be dead or maimed. (BTW, Mercedes Lackey does a good job of covering exactly this point in several of her books)

    Anyways...those are my thoughts and always questioned (and complained) about the duel requirements for armor.

    Aaelefein


    Best wishes for a Merry Christmas
    and a safe and Happy New Year
    Spirit Brothers
    Aaelefein - Foremost a Grand Master Crafter, also a Paladin/Healer/Druid/Mage/Spiritist
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    ...Using training points means you have to sacrifice something else. And AU could be the most expensive thing you could put TPs into, who knows?...
    I can see what you are saying about being able to train it via training points.

    The reason this wouldn't work tho, is because the dev's in the original design put the armor they did NOT intend for a toon to be able to wear at a particular stage or class, and just 10 AU shy. The toon still cannot use it, but when they go training another school that has more armor use, they quickly get the benefit (at level 91 for those schools) of that same gear, rather than some later more arbitrary level.

    Training it via training points shoots that whole plan in the butt, because raising AU just by 10, even if AU cost 5 tp's each, is still not very much TP's. Therefore the sacrifice you mentioned above is relatively minimal.

    Previously you mentioned, or asked, why would mage and scout get 10au per level? That is so that those classes can wear the best armor they can, for their respective schools, compared to say their sibling schools like Sorcerer. It's still limited by class. Just because a mage gets 10au/level, doesn't mean they can wear plate armor for example. See? The au "skill" isn't really implemented as a skill the way you are thinking, like say 2 hand crush is. It's simply the way the system works, to allow certain schools to wear certain types of armor. Mage gets the padded ironsilk, sorcerer doesn't. That is by design, controlled via the au per level in each school. But via multiclassing, the sorcerer can wear the padded ironsilk. It's one of the points of multiclassing.

    If the armor use skill was more like an actual skill, mages and cloth types would get say 5 per level, warrior 10 per level. T5 Plate would require 1000 AU, T5 Padded Cloth 500. But then, via a much smaller multiclass, the mage would be at it's maximum needed with only 50 warrior. Too easy. Therefore, the skill was implemented and used a bit differently for more balance.

    Hopefully that helps everyone to understand why training points in AU would be a bad thing, and throw the whole balance out of whack.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Hopefully that helps everyone to understand why training points in AU would be a bad thing, and throw the whole balance out of whack.
    It might, if one believed that the biped classes were anywhere near balanced in the first place, which I do not. >_>;

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  16. #16

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    I don't really understand the need for AU to even be in the game, to be honest.

    All armor has class and level restrictions.

    And why does, say, Mage get 10 AU per level? That doesn't even make sense.

    So I can level a Mage, and get, say, Lv100 in Mage, and be able to wear anything in the game that my current class can use?

    Let's say you do this:

    Level a 100 Mage
    Level a 100 Cleric (keep it as current class)

    This combination can wear Mithril Platemail.

    Then, on another character, level JUST the Cleric to 100, or Cleric + Reaver, or whatever.

    Why should the first character be more skilled at wearing heavy armor than the 2nd? Mages don't wear heavy armor, why do they get so much AU? That doesn't even make sense.

    We should just get rid of Armor Use, and use just the level/class system.

    *looks at the Armor Use list*

    .....monk has 10 AU? I thought monks were usually people who never wear armor at all? lol. This is making no sense whatsoever...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    I'm old school, must be. I was someone that played DnD in the olde
    days of Paper and Dice, been a DM (Dungeon Master) and GM (Game Master).
    So my responses are from that mind-set, TSR boxed and all.
    I put a lot of thought into this reply and tried to shave it down, to
    no avail. Please bear with the long post.

    All classes should not be allowed to wear "top level" armor just
    because their level is 100. Level 100 should not be auto-associated
    with Armor Use 1000. I grant you that what is in-game is not perfect,
    to either of us, but it is the best that could be done at the time. To alter
    it now would cause major, I repeat MAJOR, breakages.

    "And Nature, Fire, One-Hand Crush, etc. are all skills just like this, are
    they not? You can put TPs into these."

    Yes, they are skills and you can put points into them. However, Armor Use
    is not in that list of skills, and IMO shouldn't be. Perhaps I mis-stated
    what I think Armor Use is when I called it a skill.

    As for adding TP into AU or having Techs for Armor Use, I don't like
    those ideas either. Mostly because I believe that the skill of wearing
    Armor should not become player flexible. I don't believe that any
    amount of "extra training" should allow a Class to increase the ability
    to wear better armors. To do such would throw off the basic classing
    system. The only existing plus to Armor Use is the Dwarven Racial
    ability. To implement your suggestion would negate an entire Racial
    bonus.

    "Or how about allowing the base classes to have 10 AU/level?"

    4 of the 7 do have 10/lvl. - Warrior, Mage, Monk, Scout.
    Leaving the other Base classes - Cleric, Druid, and Spiritist to have
    lesser gains in AU as appropriate. Cleric is not an Armor expert as
    they specialize in Defense - 10/Lvl Shield.

    Here's something to ponder: If all classes should have 10AU/Lvl, why
    not give them 10/Lvl for ALL skills? ALL Classes should get 20/Lvl
    Health? Just so players don't have to "do something silly like raise
    Warrior"? Should leveling the playing field, as you desire, also include
    allowing all classes to have access to ALL abilities? Only fair and
    logical, right? (To heck with specialty training or class-centric skills)
    I hope you can see where this is leading. Are you just looking for Cookie
    cutter classes?

    I admit, I am mystified as to why you consider Multi-classing
    (one of Istaria's strong points IMO) such an Evil idea. Rather
    adamant you appear to be in refusing to work within the existing
    Game rules.

    "It might, if one believed that the biped classes were anywhere near
    balanced in the first place, which I do not."

    Are you referring to balance for PVP purposes? - That will never happen,
    and isn't a current statis in the game. I was referring to Class-Balance
    as a internal balance.

    I again say to you: Each class has its strengths and weaknesses.
    They serve a purpose in giving each Adventure class a specialty
    and a reason for others to seek them out for Group hunting.
    Learn them, hate or love them, and live with them - OR raise another
    class to counter that weakness, as only Istaria allows you to do.
    (unless I missed some other MMORPG out there that allows Multi-classing)

    Dhalin: "I don't really understand the need for AU to even be in the game, to be honest."

    It is ingame to prevent New players from being given Iron-silk Jammies at the
    beginning of their lives. Without AU, a Lvl 1 Mage no-strictions on Cloth Armor
    could wear Ironsilk Padded Cloth armor. Or a Lvl 1 Warrior running around with a
    full set of Mithril Platemail?

    Dhalin posted: "We should just get rid of Armor Use, and use just the level/class system."

    I thought about this too, and my conclusion was - TONS of new armor would
    be made and placed into everyone's Vaults to wear in their different
    adventure classes. This change would make the Database buckle under and
    struggle on a daily basis. NOT a good change at all, in anyone's view.

    I could be wrong, it _has_ happened before. These are just my thoughts and I thank
    you for sticking with this loooong response.

    Andaras

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    Here's something to ponder: If all classes should have 10AU/Lvl, why
    not give them 10/Lvl for ALL skills?
    For one, I never said give all classes 10 AU/level. The only time I mentioned anywhere near that was when I suggested that base classes get 10 AU/level. Say that you play a Bloodmage and you want to take something that will give you 10 AU/level. Well, you can't do the school you originally took to get to Bloodmage; Spiritist doesn't get 10 AU/level. Nothing else (that I noticed) tied to the spirit skill grants 10 AU/level either. Say you took Cleric for buffs, but that only grants 9 AU/level. What do you do here?

    That's all I was trying to combat: situations where you would take a class just for AU and for no other reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    I admit, I am mystified as to why you consider Multi-classing
    (one of Istaria's strong points IMO) such an Evil idea. Rather
    adamant you appear to be in refusing to work within the existing
    Game rules.
    I do not consider it evil. I am not refusing to work with the game rules. This is a suggestion forum. Not a "This sucks and I won't play anymore if this doesn't get changed" forum.

    My suggestions are borne of a personal lack of understanding what I consider a strange and sometimes annoying way of going about armor requirements. I am not the only one. At least I tried to come up with compromises, whereas many would just say they want AU to go away completely.

    If I'm going to multiclass, I want to take classes that compliment the class I intend to play as my "main." When I say compliment, I mean that the abilities, spells, and skills I gain from the added class all play a part in making my character better. I do not like to see situations where, say, a pure spellcaster has to take a melee class just for skill points. That is my opinion, and that will not be swayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    Are you referring to balance for PVP purposes? - That will never happen,
    and isn't a current statis in the game. I was referring to Class-Balance
    as a internal balance.
    No. I am well aware that the PvP arena is nothing but a fun little distraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    It is ingame to prevent New players from being given Iron-silk Jammies at the beginning of their lives. Without AU, a Lvl 1 Mage no-strictions on Cloth Armor could wear Ironsilk Padded Cloth armor. Or a Lvl 1 Warrior running around with a full set of Mithril Platemail?
    Armor also has a level requirement. It would be impossible for a newbie to wear T5 at level one even if AU stopped existing. So.. I do not see this as a valid point.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  19. #19

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    I agree with most of all you`ve said Andaras.

    Its easier to understand the "Why`s" when you`ve played (A)D&D o.s.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Evasion and Armor Use (Mostly Armor Use)

    Dhalin: "I don't really understand the need for AU to even be in the game, to be honest."

    It is ingame to prevent New players from being given Iron-silk Jammies at the
    beginning of their lives. Without AU, a Lvl 1 Mage no-strictions on Cloth Armor
    could wear Ironsilk Padded Cloth armor. Or a Lvl 1 Warrior running around with a
    full set of Mithril Platemail?
    Except that Ironsilk cloth needs Current School Level 80 IIRC. You could have a Lv1 Warrior wearing it, but only if you have a Lv80+ Craft School Leveled as well. Armor Use wouldn't change that.

    Even if Ironsilk's AU was high enough that a Lv100 craft school wouldn't allow it to be equipped, keep in mind that Dragons have no "Scale Use" stat -- they can level DCRA to 100 and use Mithril-Marble Armor scales at DRAG 1. If Dragons can do it, Bipeds should be able to, as well. *shrugs*

    Dhalin posted: "We should just get rid of Armor Use, and use just the level/class system."

    I thought about this too, and my conclusion was - TONS of new armor would
    be made and placed into everyone's Vaults to wear in their different
    adventure classes. This change would make the Database buckle under and
    struggle on a daily basis. NOT a good change at all, in anyone's view.
    Errr, I fail to see how that's different than what we've got now? Removing AU and using JUST the Level Class requirements that are already in place changes absolutely nothing in this respect, to be honest.

    As to D&D, the way I remember it, every class can use every armor, yes, Mages are allowed to wear Plate Armor, BUT, they couldn't cast spells in it, or had spell penalties. There were no "Armor Use" stats in P&P (A)D&D.

    The only thing AU actually does is force bipeds to multiclass to be able to use armor they should be able to use. Clerics are permitted to use, for example, Mithril Platemail, but they are forced to level a 10 AU/Level class to be able to use it. Why should a Cleric have to level something, say, Mage, just to use armor they should be able to use naturally without Armor Use? Mouse over a a Mithril Platemail Chestguard -- it says right there Clerics should be able to use it. But yet, they can't, without a set amount of AU? That makes no sense.

    As to everyone running around with Mithril Platemail, again, no. Mouse over that Chestguard again -- you'll notice that only a few schools are permitted to use it.

    You would still have the Level and School restrictions you always had, the only thing removing AU would do, is remove the forced Multi-Schooling and/or the forced leveling of Mage, Warrior, or any other 10AU/Level school just to wear your best armor.

    And you still have yet to answer why Mages should know more about wearing armor than Clerics, while mages are only allowed to wear Cloth and Clerics are permitted to wear Platemail.

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