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Thread: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

  1. #41

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    I'd say "yes" to all tiers, and I'd add spells in there.

    Basically, the current system has two settings:
    • you find someone Knowledged to the TEETH (possibly yourself) and they make you a full set of Murderation 9001.
    • you don't find someone and you're stuck in rags beggars wouldn't be caught dead in. Also, you probably die horribly all the time.

    Now, I don't want to hurt the call for crafters. Sweet baby Drulkar, I don't want to hurt it. I am one of those crafters, and the last time someone hired me to make a set of teched spells for them I was over the moon with joy. But I've also had to start from nothing, and let me just remind those who may have forgotten that once you make it to New Trismus or Kion or whatever and all you have to your name is a rinky-dink shield, a stick, and a Training Firebolt, it sucks. Now, if you are fortunate or well-connected you can spend a day (or two or five) organizing tech comps and finding crafters and getting yourself fitted out in your very own Murderation 9001. That's time spent probably standing around in town, and talking to lots of people, and just generally NOT adventuring, but whatever, at least when it's done you can go kill things without a massive handicap.

    But if you don't know people, or they're not online, or you don't have someone showering you with the harder-to-get bits? You can try to do every last bit of it yourself: craft up, try to get every tech/form you'll need (HAAAAhahahaha), or else go face the ravening hordes in the equivalent of your undies. If all you wanted to do was go teach some gruok not to be such pigfaces, this is almost certainly less fun than the other choice. (Undead? Oh please, they look at you funny and you flop over dead.)

    So I think "refurbished" armor, weapons, and spells would be a nice stopgap. Not as good as teched. No way as good as teched, and you'll still want to get your hands on your very own tailor-made Murderation 9001.* But in the meantime, you'll at least be able to go out and DO something besides sit on your hands and/or die constantly.

    Spells too because being a caster is hard enough when they give you NAUFFINK. Techs are invaluable there, even at low levels, so again: easy-to-get unteched would be a wonderful stopgap until you can find someone to make you the good stuff. None of this "training" crud.


    *I am making the faith-based assumption here that the devs can figure out how to make unteched, quickie stuff less attractive than a fully-teched kit.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Spells too because being a caster is hard enough when they give you NAUFFINK. Techs are invaluable there, even at low levels, so again: easy-to-get unteched would be a wonderful stopgap until you can find someone to make you the good stuff. None of this "training" crud.
    There is a spell vendor in NT already, that dragon standing right between the crafting building and the building up on the hill, he's blue IIRC.

    He sells spells.

    But he also wants 1, 2, 3 silver per if I recall, and nobody in NT has entire silvers to dump on his spells, so maybe a reduction in how much he wants for his spells would be a good thing.

    Otherwise, I'm in total agreement with what you just posted. A basic, untech'd suit of armor is nowhere near as good as a tech'd one once you get to T3 and on. An untech'd suit of armor is barely better than going naked, and that's if you're wearing metal armor. Wearing leather, you might as well BE naked. Wearing T3 untech'd cloth? Why bother?

  3. #43

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    A basic, untech'd suit of armor is nowhere near as good as a tech'd one once you get to T3 and on. An untech'd suit of armor is barely better than going naked, and that's if you're wearing metal armor. Wearing leather, you might as well BE naked. Wearing T3 untech'd cloth? Why bother?
    That got me to thinking, if a new player has been buying the untech'd stuff all along, they may not realize there is better to be had. A clear statement from the vendor for the untech'd gear at tiers III and up like,"Wow! I rarely get orders for these since the Gifted have been creating deluxe gear. Thank you for your purchase!" might help point them to getting properly outfitted.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    That got me to thinking, if a new player has been buying the untech'd stuff all along, they may not realize there is better to be had. A clear statement from the vendor for the untech'd gear at tiers III and up like,"Wow! I rarely get orders for these since the Gifted have been creating deluxe gear. Thank you for your purchase!" might help point them to getting properly outfitted.
    Good idea, the NPC should, in some way, mention or suggest seeking tech'd gear or some-such. That is a nice, and valid point.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    I vote no. I havent ever heard one person say they are leaving because they couldnt find a set of armor. Other things to worry about more important than this.
    Last edited by Teto Frum; March 13th, 2011 at 01:02 PM. Reason: addition

  6. #46

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by Teto Frum View Post
    I vote no. I havent ever heard one person say they are leaving because they couldnt find a set of armor. Other things to worry about more important than this.
    I have. Several times in chat in fact.

    Person was on a trial account, asked for armor throughout the course of hours. Did so the next morning with no reply. Got too frustrated because they couldn't play the game and had been trying to do so for two days. It takes just the right amount of people to be on or not be on to get the right armor.

    Then you get scenes from Thickle's well written post where they can't get the materials for the armor nor can they fight at all really.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    yes Shian- my saying.
    It happens too often!

    yes Thickle- great description!
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  8. #48

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    I'm trying to imagine how a new player would find out a new armor.
    Over New Trismus, as a new player, I would not have a look at the trainer first.
    I guess I would look near the consigner and pawnbroker.

    Setting up a third NPC of the Empire,over those kind of place could help I think.


    I'll agree on the fact that it should be un-teched items.
    To me, this NPC should provide any kind of un-teched items.
    Our UI has some nice filters !
    The "Requirement met" filter would do the rest of the job :)

    A last thing that I would suggest:
    If the current adventure school is >= lvl 20
    Prompt a "ask somebody else" window.
    This way, players would have work :p

  9. #49

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    You ever tried killing Tier 3 mobs with untech'd Tier 3 armor?

    It is hardly "easy".

    But whatever. At least T1 and T2 would be a help.
    The point is that by tier 3, they will know enough to know how to ask for a crafter, or to craft it themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    That got me to thinking, if a new player has been buying the untech'd stuff all along, they may not realize there is better to be had. A clear statement from the vendor for the untech'd gear at tiers III and up like,"Wow! I rarely get orders for these since the Gifted have been creating deluxe gear. Thank you for your purchase!" might help point them to getting properly outfitted.
    Excellent point.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Personly I think this problems can probly be solved by adding a new NPC.

    Lets call this NPC the Orders NPC were Adv. A can place a order for a piece of gear with or with out any Techs on it and then Crafter B can come along with out Adv. A even being online and see what people need and build it.

    When Crafter B fills the order the coin go's into Crafter B's wallet and Adv. A gets the iteam delivered to his/her vault.

    That solves the problem of Crafters not crafing teched iteams and placing them for days never knowing if someone will buy.

    Also solves Adv. problems on not wishing to play crafty crafty game but still being able to get the gear they need with out spending 10+houres a day trying to find someone to make there gear as well.

    Then we would gain more players that dont like to craft but like to adv. I feel this is good for the crafter player and good for the Adv player. And just down right good for Istaria.
    Nothing But Love! That's what makes Dragons Fly!

  11. #51

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    I'm slightly skeptical.... It might diminish the desire for player-made items, but it could also do the opposite, and maybe give a base-line value for player-made goods, allowing crafters to make more money for their work.

    It could help up and coming players, though, so it may well be worth it.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    This is an interesting discussion, and many good points have been brought up. Here is my 2c.

    Regarding the Vendor Equipment, I think at least the first two tiers should be made available as the developers see fit. The following tiers should be crafted items, special quests, and drops as the only source.

    I have a main character and one alt, and each has experienced two wildly different climates in terms of game economy and crafting.

    My main character was leveled during the release of the game. The climate of the early game (first 6 months or so) was almost the opposite of what we have now. Due to the amount of players leveling, the first two tiers of crafted items were plentiful. Crafters in general were plentiful, and gear was not hard to come by. You could walk to almost any city cosigner and find well teched gear up for sale.

    As you got higher in level... say into tier 3 and beyond, you got closer to the bleeding edge. The tier 4 crafters (tier 4 was cap at the time) were fewer, and fewer still were the ones who had all the forms and techs to fill a specific order. I still recall the ordeal of getting my entire t4 teched padded silk armor and spells created. It took several weeks of gathering, planning, and coordinating with several high level crafters and guilds.

    Which brings us to my alt, leveling in today's climate. We have the opposite environment now; the pyramid has flipped. Far less players are leveling up, and the lower tier items are scarce simply due to low demand. Higher tier items are quite attainable. There are crafters who have compiled all the forms and techs over the years in multiple craft schools.

    Given this wild disparity, I think it's only fair that the beginner tiers are easily obtainable from multiple sources.

    Someone mentioned blighted gear earlier in the thread. With a few adjustments I think this could be a beginner friendly and viable source of equipment. Because the items stats are truly random, the odds of getting something useful to your particular armor type, adventure school, and preference is very low. There can also be additional racial requirements which impose even more restrictions. Lifting the racial requirements and tuning the randomly applied skills/stats to more class and armor appropriate combos could be very helpful to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthizar View Post
    I also think a new NPC is realy realy realy needed. A Orders NPC were a player can place a open order to be filled for coin. i.e. I place a Order up for a Tier 3 E-bolt with Tech-3 Stun/damg inc. and Range.
    A system like this would be awesome. This could potentially eliminate two of the difficulties getting player crafted gear made:

    1. Communication barriers. Whether it's to ask for something to be made, or to trade a finished product and pay... Not having to be online at the same time makes for easier transactions and a bigger market because you eliminate timezones and play styles as limiting factors.

    2. Using a third party craft calculator to find out what items exist, what techniques can be applied, and what resources will be required seems unnecessary. That system already exists in the item creation window... it really needs to be visible to an adventurer looking to get something made.
    torvos: shadow to chaos shard

  13. #53

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Thank you all for your feedback.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

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  14. #54

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Re-opened because I am considering working on this. Trying to determine if:

    a) Equipment should be on the Craft Trainers.

    b) Equipment should be on the Adventure Trainers.

    c) Equipment should be on entirely new NPCs or Pawnbrokers.

    I'm leaning towards (b) and my reasoning is that the players the equipment is meant to help is adventurers and so they would likely be at their trainers. Going to a craft trainer might not occur to them. (c) is a possibility because players would go to special vendors for it, but it would need to be well located in every town.

    Buying equipment related to your class does have a precedent in other MMOs, though in many its often special non-crafted items meant as coin sinks rather than standard craftable items.

    Btw, reading back through the posts I did want to clarify something. This equipment would ONLY be armor, shields, spells, and weapons. No tools, pouches, backpacks, cargo disks, cargo gear, etc.

    Opinions on the placement of the items?
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    d)
    I think it would be a nice job for the former consigners.

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  16. #56

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    I would be inclined to say C and place said special NPC in every town. Maybe a new building with a vendor for each type of item (Metal armor, cloth armor, weapons). Adventure trainers, especially the speciality classes, are spread out or sometimes limited to a single city. Heck, I've run around Sslanis recently and been surprised to find a trainer. I've also run around cities looking for trainers.

    Now, let's say you raise your tier. Go from Sslanis and Kion to Chiconis and Dalimond. As you arrive, you see a familiar looking building/sign/cluster of NPC's. You instantly know "Aha, place to buy gear." Maybe even have a little quest to take some refurbished (but unusable) iron armor to said NPC hub. Then when they go to Mahagra and see the same sign, they know "Steel must be here..."
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  17. #57

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    The four basic trainers are in every city already. And if players are taught to expect the basic (Warrior, Mage, Scout, Cleric) trainers to always have basic equipment then they wouldn't need a special building.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  18. #58

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Unless this program is for the basic classes, it may lead to some confusion for people playing hybrid classes. A Shaman may not realize that they need to see the Cleric/Scout for armor, the Mage for spells and the Warrior for weaponry and a shield. Or a Ranger may not realize that he needs to see both the mage and the cleric for spells. Due to the diverse array of gear, weapons and spells, each trainer would need a wide range of equipment and at that point you may as well just have one NPC who sells everything at once.
    Ssilmath Torshak, Paladin of the Lost, Shaman of the Damned, Master Armorsmith

    My other "crack would be cheaper" hobby
    http://ssilmath.deviantart.com/

  19. #59

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    I could see a good reasoning/argument for any of these.

    A) teaches even the adventure-minded to PAY ATTENTION TO CRAFTERS. You don't have to be one yourself, but you DO need to learn to deal with them, NPC or otherwise. Downsides: item/NPC distribution could be uneven, nonsensical at times-- would blacksmiths offer weapons AND armor? What about armorcrafters and weaponcrafters? What if you have all three of those in one city? Not insurmountable problems, just a little confusing for the uninitiated.

    B) is pretty KISS. "I am a cleric -> I go to the cleric trainer to get my starter set." That is VERY easy to convey, and easy to remember, so it wouldn't be some involved, arcane process for newbies to struggle with. Downsides: no built-in training that, hey, this is only BASIC stuff, you should go cuddle up to a crafter to get your Murderation 9001 on.

    C) is even more KISS than B. "I need starter stuff -> I go to this NPC." Arguably even easier to teach. Same downside as B plus the additional minor hassle of having to shove new NPCs in all over the place.


    So... hrm. I like ALL of these ideas. I'd be interested to see if anyone can think up any pros/cons I haven't thought of yet, that might get me off the fence, but for now they look equally attractive.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Vendor Equipment

    Re-opened because I am considering working on this. Trying to determine if:

    a) Equipment should be on the Craft Trainers.
    b) Equipment should be on the Adventure Trainers.
    c) Equipment should be on entirely new NPCs or Pawnbrokers.
    d) Equipment should be on the Consigners.

    a) It would direct new players to the right place to find player-crafted stuff.
    b) crafted and teched alternatives would show up when shopping.
    c) I suspect it would be very easy to put in place, just run a routine to mimic a player removing and restoring inventory. You could even use the name of the appropriate local craft expert in place of the player.

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