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Thread: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

  1. #21

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    First off, to answer the over all question, I am a firm YES on this idea. I love the fact that you are bringing this to us in order to get feedback and suggestions. To me that basically says that it's not a question of "if" but "when" you will be going forward with something like this, have an overall general to indepth idea of how you want to implement it, but are open to suggestions/need input before you finalize the exact system. While there are many things that need fixing yet, this is definitely an addition to the game that will bring life to the current player base and also be an attraction for players looking to return to the game or just new players in general.

    The idea about the Valkor and Reklar pieces having specific tokens that drop off of them is a great overall idea. It makes hunting them not irrelevant while people just farm easier epics, like others have stated. I'm sure since you are making different tier soul shards making these additional 2 soul shards that drop specifically from these two epics shouldn't be too much of a problem. But again, that's me both assuming, and hoping.

    To those stating that bringing back old items will "ruin" the market that there is for them right now, please tell me what exact market that is? There are so few out there of the ones that people have, and it's not like they have multiple is almost every case, so they're not being traded/sold. I mean, if I saw even a couple times a month something like that being auctioned or sold then I could see the arguement that there's a "market" for these rare, no longer obtainable except by those who already have in game, items. Bringing them back just allows the people who were not here years ago, or who took a multiple year break (about 6 year in my case) the chance to obtain them too. This, from the rarity I'm reading, is actually going to *create* a market for these items, in an indirect way (as long as the soul shards are not attuned).

    Regarding lower tiers as well as regular named mobs in the T5/6 range. My suggestion on the shards here is two fold. First, the drop rate on all regular named mobs needs to be extremely low so that regular named mobs aren't just farmed. With this being said, there's also step two, which is needing epic mobs for all tiers.

    The way I suggest setting up the epics for lower tiers so that they are not just farmed by higher level players is as such. Have there be an NPC that offers "quests" to kill epics. I suggests that the quests offered depend on either your current adv or your highest adv class level. This would do many things. I would prevent high level players just farming shards of every tier, it would create a market for players of all levels (again, provided the shards are not attuned) and it would really give new players immediate excitement and a way to make some money or obtain cool items right off the bat. It also creates a need for players of similar level across all tiers to group together for something which right now isn't needed for anything until the end of the game. (if something is too hard, most people just come back to it later when they're a higher level)

    Anyways, I see a lot of positive that can come out of this as well as it just being the start of something that will continue to get better and better as it's a framework for new content.

    Just my 2 cents, or 2 pages.....
    Shinobai - 100rng/100hlr/100war/80monk/65dru/80mage/65sprt
    Crimson Dawn - Chaos Shard

    Shins Draconic - 100adv/85drc/what's lairshaping?

  2. #22

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    As a person who has had a uhh, lack of luck for his entire life, i'm going to say that having a chance drop is not a good idea ESPECIALLY if it is only on named mobs. I'm -still- trying to figure out a way to make a decent cash flow at season 100 (Removal of the Cash Purses ruined any income i had), so i doubt I'd be able to trade for a long time. Which is probably the absolute primary way I'd be trying to gain these things if it's a chance drop rate.

    I'm all for needing multiple soul shards to purchase one item, i'd happily require 5, mabye even 10 per item depending on how powerful it is (well, not for unique piece shards), but make them a guarantee to drop, if the --average-- drop rate was 1 in 5, and an item needed more then one soul shard, the amount of grinding would get rather painfully long. I say this because i prefer to talk and rp rather then hunt, and if a chance drop, you could kill a monster four times and not get one, and then someone else kills it the fifth time and gets the shard, having only killed one, knocking out all the work you just did. I say that because all the mmos I've played, that situation has actually occurred A LOT.

    And as others have said for Epic pieces such as Reklar or Valkor, make them require a unique soul shard from those epic level monsters

    TL:DR


    Make Shards guarentee drop, but require multiple per item

    Give Epic items like Reklar or Valkor Drops a unique shard dropped from said mobs, at a 1:1 Shard Per Piece Ratio
    Thenalth Venalueth (Order) Adult Lunus
    Kelthorath Insalik (Order) Hatchling
    Riethali Koray (Order) Hatchling

  3. #23

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    The idea is not bad but i think better leave old and existed epic stuff as it is.. it works just fine so far.. instead, yes i support everyone who said it already, add something new.. new epic items with new unique effects and new system to obtain them.. for example, let both regular epic items and item parts drop from the epics plus this soul shards, shard number and chance depends on mob hardness, and the rest is up to imagination.. new spells sounds absolutely nice, i'd be glad to see a Banshee or Reyem Wrath epic spells in game, t6 buffs, t6 heals etc.. let it be a Vendor or let it be a new mini dungeon with challenging content that will require shards to pay for the entering, just anything.. dont touch old, make new.. unlike old bits that will only go for a part of players, new stuff will improve interest of both newbies and oldies..
    Timeo danaos et dona ferentis..

  4. #24

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    No. No. No.

    This is a lazy way to do it IMO.
    Do random spawns of tough tiered mobs with appropiately tiered items.

    And make the items attune upon looting. Otherwise you're gonna have EQ-esqe farming and consigning.

    Diversity is the key. Heck, make some real nice stuff quest rewards instead of "killing" rewards. Nice doesnt alway equate to "powerful" either.

    I think back to Gemstone days when something that was simply...different was real nice. Attach some unique emotes to items that you can click to use....

    In gemstone I had a troll slayer sword that would perform 5 or 6 different emotes at random, and more while in combat along with a proc/flare up for a little extra damage....

    or a cloak that gently ruffles in the breeze...

    bows that twang when fired...

  5. #25

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    I think this is a great idea, especially with the possibility that old techniques can be reintroduced among the populations. Just not sure what I think about replacing existing epic loot, though.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Time to through in my 2 cents ;) The idea most definitely has considerable merit.

    I think it’s best kept to new stuff only. After almost 7 years, I still only have things which can still be acquired in-game, so I’m not saying this because I have some of those converted long forgotten uber-rares.

    The possible new spells/techs which you have suggested, Amon, sound very enticing. T6 Spells.... yes! Rare Kickers, yes! Cleanse greater than T3, yes YES! J maybe stun V, or heal recycle IV ;)

    My beef, as others have expressed too, comes from essentially making the Big Bad posterior Boss fights obsolete. Please don’t add any current epics to the list. Leave SoG, Valkor and Reklar as is. But feel free to add Zealot, Rancor and Mace of Divination to the list (and a bit of beefing up wouldn’t hurt).

    I would also suggest (and this may already be likely) that these new soul frags be tiered. This is kind of opposite to what Chasing said, but I think addresses the issue he raised. So for example a T1 soul frag may have a value of 5c, and a corresponding T1 “item” from the new vendor might be worth 100c as a starting value, while the better T1 gear might be worth up to 500c. Then a T2 soul frag might be worth 20c and a T2 item would be 1s+. Basically, you can use a T6 soul frag to purchase the lower tiered gear and vice versa. The number of soul frags at each tier should also increase for items of equal level. So using the numbers I just used, it would take 25 soul frags for a T1 item using T1 frags, up to say 100 frags at T5 for a T5 item. Since the frags have values, it also means that T1 frags can be used to purchase T2 gear, albeit you would need a lot more, but moving up tiers would not make the T1 frags useless. If they have values far enough apart, there is no way you could possibly use enough T1 soul frags to buy a T6 item realistically and this would also appease any problems with lower lvl mobs being farmed.

    So in theory I support the idea 90%, just don’t add the current epics to the list and you have my undying support ;)
    --- iuvenilis --- [Officer of The Alliance]
    Demonslaying since July 2004

  7. #27

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    I'd rather not see old event items get reintroduced.

    The concept of rewarding players that have been here since month 1 seems to be a difficult one in this game; however those players that have them have earned them. They should be allowed to keep that distinction.

    I'd leave the loot system the way it is on the epics and the quests, lore, etc. As far as the timers go, they should stay as they are, because so many people wanted things to be easy to get and the epics all got made easier. Plus it's a delicate balance with Order shard, with the difficulty at times of getting together enough players to make a group.

    If you want to introduce new "shards" to trade, let those be quest driven by the NPC, and when you're on the "quest" you get a chance to get the shards drop as loot. I agree that it should also be scaled by the difficulty of the mob to kill. Daknor/SoG are too easy. Anything that can be killed by 2-3 characters, or solo should either have a shard drop in a blue moon, or not at all.

    Personally, I'd like to see the drops be very very rare, kind of like SOG before he was babyfied and you could go 2 weeks without getting a single piece drop off him. I wouldn't have the shards be attuned, as there have been enough items changed so that there's no market to buy/sell at higher tiers.

    The "random" system has worked for all these years, why is it suddenly not good enough?

    Only new items should be introduced, perhaps along the lines of weapon tech kits for each of the elemental attack types, instead of just frozen. (Although I'd suggest crystals instead of kits). Nothing more frustrating than working that hard to get an item and then having it be so restricted in it's use. I dislike the idea of adding more epic spells if they're just going to be on linked timers. Seems like defeating the purpose of getting another attack, because either it won't be used or it'll be sidelined in favor of the next, better epic spell/ability.

    Put something in for crafters--and then let there be commerce so that the craft happy can have a chance to purchase said item from another player if they don't want to fight for it themselves. This would create some level of interaction between hunters and crafters and promote sales.

    By leaving the old epics as they are, that provides MORE content for newer player, not changing existing content. This way they can participate in both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Random Poster
    I'm gonna post in this one too!

  8. #28

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Ok now that I've read others it helps me solidfy mine.

    Since most are overwhelmingly positive in putting such a system in I won't fight against that. I'll just put in my 2 cents as to the specifics.

    As one of those "old timers" who still never had any of these "lost recipies" so to speak, I say put in the old stuff AND put in new stuff. Don't get "lazy" and just put old, now unobtainable, things on there but keep it updated and keep it fresh by putting new items and such on there periodically as well. I do feel such things deserve to return to the game because I'm not someone who, in any game, feels content should be barred from people just because they weren't around when it was new or even hard. *shrugs* That's me, and I feel that way in all games.

    But I also know that devs have stated before that some of those old receipies and such were "OP" basically (overpowered, not original poster...lol) with how the world works now and that they weren't necessarily still meant to be in game. So I acknowledge that if some of the OP items/reciepies returned they may very well be nerfed/brought in line with the state of game mechanics today. Perhaps knowing such those who are "for" it would now be against it - but I htink that's important to clarify. If "old" things are reintroduced - would they be retuned/changed?? If the answer is "yes" then that may change player feedback.

    I agree with the idea that certain epic mobs should be dropping certain "types" of soul shards. I agree that if you make all t6 epic named mobs drop the same soul shard then you're just going to have epic farming of the few easiest named and epic ignoring of the rest. Yes, this is due to "player choice" but its one of those "crappy choices you feel punished for choosing elsewhise" and not a "valid choice" so to speak. So I totally understand and am behind the idea of Reklor or Valkor dropping ABC soul shard, whereas SOG drops XYZ soul shard. The things you can buy with one are different than what you can buy with the other. This keeps people farming a vareity of mobs and not just 1 or 2 because they are easier/faster to farm for the effort.

    I also totally agree with the idea that you shouldn't be able to farm Teir 1 named mobs for Teir 6 items. However its easiest to work that given the engine I'm leaving to the devs. Wether that means that "if you don't get exp you don't get a soul shard" or "Tier 1 Soul Shards only trade for Tier 1 items" and they have different designations/names. Whatever. I don't know which system is possible given our engine but I do know (and I rather think the devs know this too lol) that if you make it possible for Tier 1 and 2 named rares to drop the same soul shards as Tier 6 you won't have people hunting Tier 6. Even if its a 50% chance vs. Tier 6 drop, they'll still prefer to mow through hundreds of Tier I named mobs over dozens of Teir 6 mobs simply due to time investment/effort. So IF lower tier named mobs drop soul shards, at whatever percentage, I hope the system is in place that thus rewards only equal level items.

    But to me, this is an "end game" system - this could be meant only for Tier 6 type content (even if its a Tier III spell it could be considered only a reward worthy for someone at end game). If this is meant to be a Tier 6 system exclusively then just don't put soul shards on anything outside of Teir 6 named mobs. Simple solution! :)

    And lastly, I feel that soul shards should drop according to the number of people in the group. I really, really, really hate the current Istarian system of allowing one person to get rewarded with a piece of something epic regardless of how many people helped to take a mob down. This leads to infighting, drama, bad feelings, isolationism and other negative things and leads to NOTHING positive at all (IMO). Its one of hte reasons I don't even bother myself, and why I don't bother to level up to 100 to take part. Why bother going beyond once if I know I am not garenteed to win anything for months and months of effort? I go once to have the experience, to go "ok I saw that fight". Need to have reason to go again, and for many of us, a 10% chance to get 1 out of 10 pieces of something we'd like just ain't it.

    So I argue that for Tier 6 epic mobs they need to drop enough soul shards for everyone who put forth the effort to meet up and defeat said mob. One piece, for a random roll, assuming noone ninja loots or makes a group with the statement "I'm putting this together for me so whatever drops is mine" is just NOT a way to keep players happy.

    For the love of Drulkar, put in enough soul shards so everyone gets 1!! I don't know how the engine would handle this - if it can't tell how many are in a group and just "insert X number of soul shards into loot 100% of the time", then perhaps the suggestion of a quest turn-in for killing the mob rewards your X soul shards. That way everyone knows they need to grab the quest for XYZ mob (from same NPC vendor) in order to garentee they get their share of the soul shards.

    HOwever the engine needs to do it, I think it needs to be 100% reward for each person. I would rather it require 150 soulshards at a garentee that the fight will reward 1 soul shard, than it requre 15 soul shards but you either never know if you will even loot a single soul shard or you never know if you loot one or two who will win the roll. The 150 or 200 soul shards for an item is not even remotely as frustrating as the random/rng dependency. If someone KNOWS that eventually, no matter what their "luck" that night is, they WILL get enough soul shards for an item its MUCH easier to go through it all and then get nothing over and over again.

    Take out the RNG! Period!
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    My vote = NO, NO, and NO

    All I see this being is a "BIG FAT EASY" button being installed
    for the Whiney New players that missed out.

    As someone else said here - RARE means it is hard to get.


    Andaras

  10. #30

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    My vote = NO, NO, and NO

    All I see this being is a "BIG FAT EASY" button being installed
    for the Whiney New players that missed out.

    As someone else said here - RARE means it is hard to get.


    Andaras
    I personally see this as a "Big fat makes-it-possible" button being installed.

    Rare shouldn't mean impossible to get. Not for items that still hold combative edges over currently obtainable ones, anyway, which is what I think the Devs are hoping to change with this on top of help push the economy in the right direction, which I personally see this actually beginning to do though it's still not a true money sink.

    Amon - Perhaps for tokens that would be used to obtain some of the old stuff such as the DCOM, Staves of Ribeth, Boar hide mask, etc. (assuming you would make tokens for such items) you could make them only obtainable during a part of yearly events. This way one can't just farm tokens for these old items all the time and leave them to still be a somewhat special thing while remaining obtainable for newer players. Of course, this means continuing to run a specific yearly event.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
    RARE means it is hard to get.

    Andaras
    I think there is a difference here between what is 'rare' and what is 'unobtainable'.

    If [when] these changes go ahead then they would need to be 'rare', similar to what I have previously suggested. If it takes 1+ months to get enough shards to trade for a single T6 Epic Item then that seems acceptable. Please note that 1+ months time would have to be for an average player's time in game as opposed to someone that is logged in 24/7 (otherwise it won't scale properly).
    Chasing
    Chaos Shard
    Scarlet Dawn


  12. #32

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Quote Originally Posted by hallucin8 View Post

    I would also suggest (and this may already be likely) that these new soul frags be tiered. This is kind of opposite to what Chasing said, but I think addresses the issue he raised. So for example a T1 soul frag may have a value of 5c, and a corresponding T1 “item” from the new vendor might be worth 100c as a starting value, while the better T1 gear might be worth up to 500c. Then a T2 soul frag might be worth 20c and a T2 item would be 1s+. Basically, you can use a T6 soul frag to purchase the lower tiered gear and vice versa. The number of soul frags at each tier should also increase for items of equal level. So using the numbers I just used, it would take 25 soul frags for a T1 item using T1 frags, up to say 100 frags at T5 for a T5 item. Since the frags have values, it also means that T1 frags can be used to purchase T2 gear, albeit you would need a lot more, but moving up tiers would not make the T1 frags useless. If they have values far enough apart, there is no way you could possibly use enough T1 soul frags to buy a T6 item realistically and this would also appease any problems with lower lvl mobs being farmed.
    Yep I understand the reason for having a system that works this way as a concept, but consider it the other way round. 1x T6 Soul shard would be exponentially worth more when purchasing a T1 item which to me is a bit defeatest as ppl will just hunt T5/T6 to purchase/trade for the lower tier items.

    However, I do recognise that there needs to be some way of trading across into the next tier. IE player hits lvl 20 and they have some t1 soul shards left, but they want to put them towards a t2 item now.
    Chasing
    Chaos Shard
    Scarlet Dawn


  13. #33

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Quote Originally Posted by Frith-Rae View Post
    For the love of Drulkar, put in enough soul shards so everyone gets 1!! ...
    HOwever the engine needs to do it, I think it needs to be 100% reward for each person. I would rather it require 150 soulshards at a garentee that the fight will reward 1 soul shard, than it requre 15 soul shards but you either never know if you will even loot a single soul shard or you never know if you loot one or two who will win the roll.
    I absolutely agree with this. I've participated in a couple of "epic" hunts, and to be honest I got *nothing* out of it other than "woo, I was there!" I have absolutely zero motivation to do epic hunts unless I'm invited; I don't have a big enough guild to do any kind of organisation of "we'll all go hunt Fafnir for parts" and I don't expect any of the other guilds to group up and humour my "I'd like a shiny nifty something-or-other...." either.
    - Kesqui - Formerly of Ice, now of Chaos, lair in Liak
    First Rebirth 12-12-2003 / Ascended to Ancient 12-12-2010

  14. #34

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Quote Originally Posted by Creme View Post
    .
    The "random" system has worked for all these years, why is it suddenly not good enough?
    I agree- if we leave SoG, Valkor and Reklar (and Queen too, I assume)
    out of the new system, like most of us wish.
    But who is left then?
    Named mobs-who can be soloed by most of us within our level range.
    No group needed for that *imagines a group of 10 to kill poor chompa- or 10 to kill Thistleface^^).
    Or only a very small group (of 2).
    I see no prob in a random in such a small group-
    I would not random at all but go for the next named.

    We had inflation of new items before- I personally do not want to see that again.
    I understand the soulshards as an incentive to go for the named mobs
    again (which most of us do not do- why should we?), and get a nice reward for that over the time. If its something old, or something new or simply fluff-
    I do not really care.
    As said- but epic bosses should stay the way they are.
    Last edited by LOVWYRM; March 23rd, 2011 at 02:05 PM.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  15. #35

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Yes I am all for it.

    1.) On Epic Bosses this shards should drop just as often as there respective Epic loot drops now though. So as to not lower the reward for fighting this Epic Bosses.
    Nothing But Love! That's what makes Dragons Fly!

  16. #36

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Yes, I am definitely for this idea.

    Ambrosia - I would rather see the spirit oil formula brought back, as ambrosia is a crafted item and I would not like to see crafters displaced.

    Rare weapons already drop off Epic mobs. Not sure there is a need to replace that system. Maybe have the epics keep the loot they already have and add the shards to them as a bonus.

    Old dragon -and biped- techniques - spirit webbing and such too please.

    New spells and techniques - YES ! Would it be possible to add old spells as well? x-generate health, Thundercloud, come to mind.

    Old event items - YES ! Silver whistle and reed formulas, swarm tyrant shield, jewelry from the sand scarab bits, regal weapons parts and formulas.

    I agree with Chasing that all these things should be rare and somewhat difficult to obtain.

    Thanks Amon, once again you have surprised and delighted me!

    Thaalia of Order

  17. #37

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Steering this back on topic. This thread is for discussing the OP, not systems for looting or group rewards or anything of that sort.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  18. #38

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Well the more I read of this thread, the more I feel that "rare collectibles" is a paradox in this game. Most players want everything, even if it's something they can't use, just to "collect". I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just a fact. If they can't obtain it within their means, they will complain about difficulty/drop rate until the mobs are nerfed and the drop rates increased.

    So, unless you want to make the items be something that pretty much any player can get (which is kind of the opposite of RARE), you'll wind up having to keep tweaking and adjusting until *most* players are happy.

    That being the case, let these be "collectible" type things, maybe new banners, shoulder buddies, special patterned dye kits. Things that players can display visually, but that don't have bonuses to combat, stats, etc.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Quote Originally Posted by Creme View Post
    If they can't obtain it within their means, they will complain about difficulty/drop rate until the mobs are nerfed and the drop rates increased.
    What about items that just can't be obtained at all?

  20. #40

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrion
    What about items that just can't be obtained at all?
    Well, I doubt the ceiling would be akin to that of level 101. But perhaps the system would be such that it would take more than a month to get a single "simpler" item, and a year to get an item that requires triple the tokens/shards..and if you instead chose to use the tokens/shards getting 3 different items in that "year" then the 4th item would be out of reach. And perhaps rather than weakening the mobs or changing the drop rates, the system could be adjusted upwards or downwards by the number of shards required to purchase an item.

    I've played other games where the drop rate on an item was so low, that only 6 or so characters out of 5k+ players had the item (in 4 years of playing).
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