Suggestion: Generate additional revenue

[FoxFlame]

I will preface this post with the acknowledgement that I am an older gamer, dating back to those MMO beta days of Ultima Online and Meridian 59. I state this not to gain any status as I very much suspect that anyone still playing this game likely has a similar story. (Or you'd be playing WoW)
I'll also state that while I played Horizons back when Tulga owned it, it was for a short while, and have since returned as I craved the novelty of playing as a dragon. I'm slowly attempting to catch up with all that has happened to this game and its current state, as well as that of the developers.

I fully acknowledge that any player who has just started the game (albeit a returning, older player) and comes barging in, pointing out everything that is wrong and suggesting ways to fix it has that cliche look of "The New Guy" in the workplace who will soon learn "Things don't work that way here" and settle down. I also acknowledge this person is typically very irritating, so I will attempt to present myself in such a manner as to not be very irritating. *smirk* (Despite that some may already believe I've failed.)

If you aren't interested in reading why Istaria should generate additional revenue or the differences between user-centric and user-driven design, please scroll down until you see the next bit of text in this color. I realize this became very long.

From all that I have learned thus far, and that which I can see asked by the players I question how the basic mechanics of business can seemingly be lost. As heartless and cold as it may seem, profit, or at the very least, compensation is required for effort.

I see many statements, demands, and requests for changes in this game. I would ask that you now understand the difference between the concepts of "user-centric" and "user-driven". Essentially, the first, and last panels of the following comic:



The distinction between "experiences" and "design" are very important if only so they do not get confused.

A user-centric experience is one in which all is provided for you. You could think of linear style game play as user-centric. Meanwhile a user-driven experience would be something closer to a sandbox or "open" game play, where their decisions make more effects on the world. Both of these are wonderful, and have their places. This will not be discussed here.

The manner in which users are incorporated into design is incredibly important. Attempting to provide user-driven design in any manner would be analogous to letting the tourist in the depths of a cruise ship playing shuffleboard decide which direction to sail, how fast, and when to stop. Users are here for the ride, to be pampered, and to enjoy the ride or get off the ship. Anything else is permitting the inmates to run the asylum. This isn't to imply that user-feedback should be discouraged, but it should be understood that the captain, the first-mate and the ship's crew from the bridge to the engine room all have a much better understanding of the priorities and capabilities of the vessel if only through the insight gained by being "behind the curtain".
User-centric design focuses on the ultimate goals of the user, not "what seems like a good idea at the moment". This ensures the ship makes it to port on time and does not hit sandbars or rocks, even though several tourists would like to go closer to shore as we pass a beach so they can get in some surfing. Additionally, funds generated by the guests' patronage will first go to the crew's wages and ship maintenance before it goes to purchasing new shuffleboards...or anything else for that matter.

Tired of the analogies? I sure hope not; they're my bread & butter.

I'm surprised, given that which I've read, that Istaria still exists. It feels a bit like a player-run server. I'd be curious how much finagling with operating costs (such as reduction of servers which I'm sure is why many servers were closed) were used to keep the system running. I also question how much has been pure benevolence from many employees. (Countless unpaid hours and charitable donations to the company coffers) Given my experiences in the world of business regarding technology I can only attempt to postulate how Mr. Rick Simmons and his team were able to attempt to revive this product after reclaiming it from those who were clearly leeching it to death.

But one thing must be made very clear if the game is to progress:
A company can only operate within the bounds of its generated profit.

In English? Venture capitalists aside: the amount of changes to the game, and the speed at which they are implemented, will be dependent upon the profits generated by the game. Ok, sorry. That wasn't nearly as boiled down as it should have been; let me try that again.

Istaria makes more money = Istaria gets much better, much faster

That's better.

So, provided the present company isn't interested in simply watching the game languish, as the previous owners did, who simply would have pocketed any additional cash generated, Istaria generating additional funds, channeled back into the company would permit the hiring of additional developers to get more of these suggestions people make implemented faster. These improvements generate additional player base, which, in turn produce additional funds, or at the very least someone else with whom you could converse in the game.

Will changing nothing kill the game? At this point I believe it's been proven that the number of subscribers presently in the game (what few there appear to be, relatively speaking) is sufficient to provide operating costs for at least maintaining the hardware required to run the servers. I don't doubt that reductions in subscriptions would simply cause part-time employees to dwindle. There is, of course, a breaking point, but the steadfast wallets of the 'veteran players' are as much to blame for the game being alive to this day as the steadfast resolve and dedicated efforts of the employees working on this game today.

But clearly more is desired. I read it in all the posts of these forums. Requests of serious fixes for serious problems, and smaller issues that would be a lower priority. The less revenue generated, the longer these will take to be implemented.

Returning to the cruise ship analogy: The previous owners put the ship in dry-dock and fired most of the crew. It's no surprise so many people left; a cruise ship is intended to cruise. The skeleton crew cleaned the bathrooms and the captain pocketed the profit.
Virtrium had some sweeping changes four years ago. Bringing back servers, changing billing, ticket systems: The ship was back in the water and new paint being applied. While new guests have gotten on-board, the funds generated are still only enough to maintain the hull and hire a minimal crew to keep things operational and sand out what rough patches they can. The funds required for replacing the shuffleboard or swimming pool are going to come in at a trickle. This won't happen for a long while, and quite frankly, when tourists have their pick of cruise ships these days, they're going to go to the one with the new shuffleboard, the swimming pool and the rock wall, even if it costs more.

This ends tape one. To continue, please eject the tape, turn it over, break it in half, and insert tape two for further torture.

So now that I've made my argument as to why Istaria should generate additional revenue (provided it goes back into development) while simultaneously creating dissent against me from anyone who plays this game freely or has oodles of free time, I'll explain the real purpose of this post.

Istaria doesn't need to be told to generate revenue. I don't know what their game plan is, or if they've already decided they just like the game, and plan on charging just enough to keep a small crew working on slow changes and anyone without tons of free time can look elsewhere. Nostalgia is a powerful motivator.
That said, it should be apparent at this point that the fact that this is in the suggestion forum is a joke in itself. (And might wind up getting moved to 'General')

I'm really interested in hearing how you all would suggest Istaria generate more money.

Pretend you're Virtrium. If you don't have grand plans for Istaria, or ambition of any sort, pretend you do for a bit. We're not here to talk about the status quo; most people here clearly want more things changed faster, and if they're not interested in paying for it, we need to find ways to generate cash to do so. That said, since none of us are interested in paying double what we pay now for subscriptions, some alternative suggestions are in order.

We also need to maintain...well, the idea of an economy. The groundwork is there, even if the economy itself doesn't exist, so keep this in mind when making suggestions.

I'll go first.

I'm going to shoot down real world 'fluff' for the moment. Yes, this is cute, but requires manufacturing costs that will result in little profit due to such a small player-base with divergent preferences regarding the purchase of such things. The overhead would probably result in a net loss unless someone "knows a guy". Or...has...someone with a lot of free time on their hands and feels like getting paid slave wages to make unique game-based plushes. Maybe in China.

That aside, this opens a very broad discussion on appealing to other demographics, specifically different "player archetypes". I could wrack my brain considering every different individual, personality type and socioeconomic possibility and attempt to pander scenarios to each, but I suspect everyone who has read this far will weigh in with their own viewpoint and achieve a bit of the same goal.

I am the casual gamer. I work 50+ hours a week, and when I come home I have responsibilities that take more of my time. I once did nothing but play video games, but now I can hardly enjoy them. I do not have time to grind...because I do not have time. That said, since most can agree that grinding isn't fun, I'm simply not going to do it. I understand that grinding is designed to obtain reasonable revenue from individuals with a time-based subscription plan. (If I charge you monthly, I want it to take longer for you to hit end-game because it's in my best interests) However, if I can go out and spend $50 on a game that's fun, and doesn't involve grinding I'm going to do that rather than spend what, to me, seems like $10 a month to work...which isn't want I want to do with my free time.
I've a fair amount of disposable income. I play a few other free-to-play games, and they've gotten hundreds of dollars out of me in very short periods of time, when many other 'grinding/subscription'-based MMOs got a year at most. I can assure you that I am a rising demographic, as all those of us who played games when we were young have grown up, gotten jobs, and have this disposable income. This is why the games that permit buying "elements" of the game have become so popular. World of Warcraft shows both sides of this coin, as you can buy gold/characters as much as you can grind them up yourselves, so obviously people exist out there who find either side of this appealing.
Before anyone starts raging, I'm not suggesting giving players the ability to purchase craftable objects. I wouldn't even start with fluff, such as shoulder pets. It requires too much coding on the parts of the developers. I'd start with simple concepts that are easy to implement, and both highly desirable and consumable. Going back to appealing to the casual gamer, as I don't have the time to dedicate to the game that others do, XP boosters would be something I'd wish to pay for. A flat application against an account of an XP multiplier would be the easiest element to implement. Some games call this a 'booster' pack. Regardless, this would be an example of a consumable, non-permanent bonus to players willing to spend money to make up for their lack of time, who still want to have fun playing the game.

Short of this...the only other way I could enjoy this game would be paying someone to grind my crafting up for me, so it's better Istaria gets my money than some online company. At least that way I could learn and enjoy the game.

I've now spent the time I intended to play a bit today typing this up on the forums, so I'll stop now to listen to the suggestions of others. I thank you for your time, and dearly hope for some creative ideas behind generating additional revenue for Istaria to promote growth. Remember, it doesn't necessarily need be an option you'd pursue, but rather an option that you wouldn't mind being possible to others.

Thank you very much.

[Midomiko]

Not going to tl;dr you, though you have quite a lengthy way of making your point. I will address a few things that I can, speaking as someone who played from shortly after launch til several months past the server mergers, and came back recently after an extended break. (If you want further "references", I have been gaming online since UO as well, from before the Tram/Fel split, and have played EQ, SWG, EQ2, GW, WoW, AoC, VG, Aion, RoM, Ryzom, DDO, and quite a few other games I am sure I am forgetting).

While having a "pay for X bonus" option works for some games, I cannot see such a thing working very well here in Istaria. Even a "pay for experience" option, while "safe" on the surface risks cheapening the effort and time put in by those players who have been here for a while, whether it be years or months. One thing that makes Istaria (and its predecessor Horizons) stand out is that the world itself changes in the hands of the players, we can see this both in player plots built up and in world projects out there in the wilds that players earned their exp helping build. Not sure if you remember it, but nearly every large structure you see outside cities on the mainland was built by players - the Dalimond Bridge, many many workstations near distant fields, the Lava Tunnel, all those spinning magical devices in the eastern settlements (which were part of another world event if I recall correctly), even such things as the lampposts and archways in tiny settlements around the world were built up by players. Players who had fun playing the game, working on various projects (world or home-made plots) with others, and generally just enjoying it as it went, rather than stressing about being caught up with or ahead of anyone else.

The community is the core of this game, it always has been, and even coming back after many years away, I got to see it holds true (within a day of returning, I had several people donate level appropriate tools and help get restarted many of which I had not met before or only faintly remembered). While I know many people would like to see further income for VI, and an expansion of game content/events/etc., I really do not see adding something to create a situation of "well Jimbob is paying more so he gets special treatment/items/whatever" being conducive to maintaining that community.

I cannot say that I can see a "solution" to generating more money for VI, beyond taking the initiative on our own and helping spread the word that this game is here, and it has the best community among all MMOs on the market (and lets you play dragons, own land, and literally change the world).

[FoxFlame]

I apologize for being extensive in my original post, but I tend to pontificate at length to ensure people comprehend completely and save the time of both miscommunication and people 'nit-picking' some trivial aspect of a point I was trying to make. It's why I typically also give warnings and 'shortcuts' as I did. *grin*

Even a "pay for experience" option, while "safe" on the surface risks cheapening the effort and time put in by those players who have been here for a while, whether it be years or months.

Quite literally cheapening it, as they wouldn't have been paying in real-world currency to boost XP, but rather paying in time. The old adage "Time is Money" is as old as it is due to it's accuracy.
How is it any less 'cheap' to hire someone online to level my character for me?

I respect that a great many veteran players view this game as their home, and do not want to see their efforts made light of in changes to the game for new players. However I wonder if it can be considered selfish to demand all newcomers go through the same tribulations at the expense of the game. (Literally) Of course without purchasing items from Istaria such as those suggested it should take just as long to level. While there are exceptions to every rule, many people who are time-rich tend to be younger individuals who are more interested in what is popular, most graphically intensive or what they're school friends are playing. (E.g. WoW) The older gamers simply don't have as much time to invest into grinding style games. If they want to play anyway, they pay for a character to play with friends who did grind. (And this is where you have high level characters controlled by people who have no idea what they're doing...usually screwing up the game for others)

So what solution then is there for casual gamers, other than an opportunity for Istaria to make additional revenue? (Apart from, obviously, other 'casual gamer friendly' MMOs)

And, not to focus entirely on that solution, what other options exist to provide Istaria additional revenue?
I'd prefer my subscriptions go to more than just paying to keep the servers running, as I imagine we all would.

As for 'spreading the word'...I can't say I can think of anyone I know who would have the free time to play a game such as this who isn't already playing a more popular 'grinding-style' game. I'd recommend it as a free game perhaps, but the real draw for most to Istaria is the ability to play as a dragon. Those who live with me have seen me playing it and stopped because they saw I was a dragon, but have already expressed, as frankly as one friend to another, that "This isn't anything new", "Not worth $10 a month", and "boring". One was incredibly surprised I was even considering a subscription. This was disheartening enough to prompt this very topic, as I really do enjoy the game but from a business standpoint do not see myself playing very long.

Oh...and a bake-sale was just suggested from the peanut gallery...

[Midomiko]

I respect that a great many veteran players view this game as their home, and do not want to see their efforts made light of in changes to the game for new players. However I wonder if it can be considered selfish to demand all newcomers go through the same tribulations at the expense of the game.

Let me toss something else past you then, that might be worth considering before you slap around the idea that it would be "selfish" to not want to see veterans alienated by such a concept: ever played Star Wars Galaxies? That game became the poster child for the MMO industry of what happens when a game company chooses to ignore their existing playerbase in the name of forcing a more "casual-friendly" play environment to attempt to draw in more customers. In the process of making changes that did make the game easier for new players to jump in, they managed to literally drive off 80%+ of their existing playerbase. It also turns out that the "droves of new players" expected to show up after the changes failed to appear, or quit playing within months because of the barren wasteland left behind by all the vets leaving the game.

Making any kind of more drastic change in the hopes of drawing in newer untapped potential players is a major gamble, with the stakes of putting one's existing customers in a position where they may not like the changes being made. Having already seen what happens when players leave in large quantities, as we did before the server merges, any company should recognize the difference between a calculated risk and a major gamble.

As for 'spreading the word'...I can't say I can think of anyone I know who would have the free time to play a game such as this who isn't already playing a more popular 'grinding-style' game.

Spreading the word doesn't just include folks you see physically. It was mentioned elsewhere on this forum that folks are just not seeing this advertised at all, or mentioned in more than a few places. There is nothing stopping anyone from dropping the Istaria name in conversation on any of the many gaming forums out there. (And before that gets turned around on me, I do just that on a couple different boards now that I am back here fulltime).

All that said, there is no truly easy solution to get more funds into development of new content. Various things have been suggested before, and I am certain will be offered up again in the future.

[FoxFlame]

Mm, that's fair. I'm wondering if it's considered a "niche" to serve an established player-base and not expect growth. Sort of like a 'retirement' cruise ship?

As you mention, a great many left during the server mergers/closes, and can only imagine said 'great many' left as they didn't have as much invested in the game as those with 100/100 character(s). When you've dedicated that kind of time, it makes more fiscal sense to stay...but I question how many new players join, and stick around these days. It doesn't make as much sense for them, as they've more options, and that was the angle I'm playing at. It's a bit like being the tourist agency for a boom town that's gone bust. It's great for those who are already established here and have learned/surpassed/just-deal-with the issues because they've been there for years. But someone who's looking for a new place to live isn't as likely to settle down in a past-prime boom town when there's newer, more attractive frontiers to the West. I hear so many say "Veteran players" and "dedicated players" and what not. Then you mention the massive construction projects of days past...
...I just don't see those happening again without a gamble. The veteran players have their world here...but without change...this world is dying. New players have little reason to play here. I'm one of them, and would love to, but I'm looking for that reason, and a way to help the company grow so my subscription wouldn't just keep the life support running.
Maybe I was never supposed to get on board; crafting in general lends itself to those with more free time then most. Maybe I've just shown up too late. That 'ghost' cruise ship set sail long ago, many abandoned ship, and only those who stuck with it are still on board.

I guess I'd have to see the subscription numbers (which, I never will) but it's been how many years since Virtrium LLC took the reigns? Going on four now? A great many good changes were made, but there are still far more empty plots than I ever recall.

So is it better to let the ghost ship plod along slowly and hope it doesn't eventually sink, or attempt to tweak your game in such a manner as to improve it? I can see an argument made for either side of this question. I'd be curious to know how fatalistic Mr. Rick Simmons is.

Maybe vanity pets wouldn't be so hard to create. Spawning a critter with nothing but follow mode on, scaled down? Charge extra for the ability to rename them? I imagine little items like that might be interesting to those who've achieved 'end game' and could drive revenue a bit. These have been suggested before I believe, and are available in other games, but I'm judging my suggestions based upon ease of development.
Warehouse leases: Extending the vault past that which is purchasable with in game currency? (for a set period of time)
Super/Multiple Cargo Discs: Temporary, along the same line of the leases. Very few things from an item mall should be permanent, but that's just my belief on the subject.
Hired Gnome resource gatherers: I particularly like this one: Hire gnomes (NPCs in-game) buy purchasing tokens from Istaria's item mall and after a period of time they return an amount of resources to you in some manner. The details could be worked out later, but you get the idea. Would cut back on grinding, and none of it actually need be seen, so less coding, texture design on the dev's part.
Consumable sprinting tokens (speed increase) or etc. would start to play impact into the game mechanics, which I'm trying to avoid, as that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Any other suggestions on easy ones?

[Ettanin]

I am against anything that gives advantages to people with much money. Anything that obviously gives an advantage, be it required time enshortener, xp boost, items, etc. it's a no no to me.

If Istaria EVER opens up any sort of Itemshop or other form of doping with Dollars, i'll leave, and so will other players, too.

It's, simply put, unfair. In fact, Dollardoping-focused games are even more expensive than subscription-based games in the endgame phase. No, thank you.

And, no, Istaria is made to be played in the long term. It's no WoW where you start raiding after four to six weeks.
The world of Istaria itself is static and rather not prone to change. Don't worry, you have all the time of the world, Istaria won't be gone that easily.

I really don't understand why so many players in that decade are in a hurry.

In short: Dollardoping features ARE evil.
Also note that Dollardoping supported games do not have improved support or stable servers. The contrast is the case. With more being Pay2Win, the support as well as server stability becomes neglected and enworsens, because it's not predictable whether the customer will still play without paying or not.
Dollardoping enworsens game experience.

There's only one way to generate more money in a fair way: Bring your friends into Istaria and motivate them to subscribe!

[Ettanin]

Addition:
The dedicated player may take 1 year to reach 100/100, while the casual one may take 10 years. So what? Istaria survived 10 years, it'll survive additional 10.

[LOVWYRM]

I do not want to interrupt that discussion,

but we discussed that before here on the forum.

The mayority of players vote against such a model.

We all want to have the same chances to play /live in Istaria.
In times of economic crisis all over the world, its not our kind of style to leave friends behind, only because they have a low budget.

If you want to support the game: Spread the word and pay for several subs
(e.g. if you like to have more than one plot/lair).

[Steelclaw]

Before going on, I'd like to point out that I can not, and am not speaking on behalf of the development team. Someone else will have to do that, if they choose to. Nonetheless, I personally feel that this discussion has some merit.

Extra money is always a nice thing -- but amassing a giant surplus of cash is not always the goal. Yes, additional staff and more resources can be hired with the extra money, and that's good too -- but that's not the goal either. These are just ways to get to a goal.

Consider a hypothetical situation where some revenue gimmick results in a massive infusion of cash, Virtrium has hired a staff of 100, and they're all ready to go and do... what? Get more money? Already did that. Hire more staff? Already did that too. Make changes? What changes? All of them? Some of them? Make a new game? They'd need a goal first.

What is that goal? It's a vision, and I'm not sure what that vision is. Everyone you ask, from individual players to developers, will have their own ideas about what Istaria is and what it should be -- and those ideas will vary greatly. One thing I am sure of though: the more overlap between those visions, the happier everyone will be.

Before talking about ways to change the game to increase revenue, an understanding of this vision (or at least that of the developers' version) is required. Some approaches to increasing revenue may counterproductive. As an example, the proposal to introduce mechanics to directly advance your character (more on this later) in exchange for money appears to be counterproductive if the vision involves creating a stable player base with low turn-over.

Now, getting an official response may be difficult and a straightforward, non-political one even harder. (Hint: don't press the matter -- it builds bad karma.) So for the time being, it's probably best to leave anything involving game mechanics out of the revenue discussion.

That being said, you do bring up an interesting point about grind, which sounds like a problem, and the idea of using it to generate revenue, a solution (Or is it the other way around, a solution in search of a problem?).

I do not have time to grind...because I do not have time. That said, since most can agree that grinding isn't fun, I'm simply not going to do it.

To me, this sounds like you're more interested in getting to the end-game rather than the content in the middle; or the content in the middle has too much grind and not enough meat to be interesting. If you've got some feedback about portions that feel particularly tedious, I'm sure the design team would like to hear it. If you're more interested in getting higher levels to have higher levels... please reconsider your goals. You'll find that Istaria has plenty to offer on the road to the end-game, both with solo adventuring, and especially making friends as you grow (which in turn may help you grow...).

In any case, the devs do read these threads even if they don't or can't respond, so please continue the discussion. Though try to include more about your vision of Istaria -- particularly where you want to see it going, who you want to play with -- what your expectations are. In the long run, information about where you want to be will be more beneficial than how you want to get there. (Note, however, that you're not guaranteed to end up where you wanted to go. )

[FoxFlame]

What is that goal? It's a vision, and I'm not sure what that vision is.

Exactly, and none of us do, and perhaps we shouldn't. With as many threats to leave as I see on these forums from people who feel "I'm the only thing keeping this server running with my subscription! It's mine!" it might be best. If I were Virtrium I wouldn't share my vision either for fear of losing what few subscriptions I still have.
The other side of that same coin is that anyone who's stuck it out this long and put up with as much nonsense as Istaria has gone through, a lot of these are idle threats, and people (even those playing dragons) tend to be far more bark than bite. America especially is a nation of people far better off than the rest of the world who will bark and complain about disservices done, but in the end will turn the other cheek, if it's done correctly. The saying goes "Drop a frog into a pot of boiling water and he'll hop right out; place him in warm water and turn the heat up slowly--he'll boil in his skin." This happens frequently in politics. Scandals for distractions not withstanding.

But it's as I've said in my first post: User-centric design. We're here to discuss many options, and perhaps some of them aren't best for the game, (or seem counter-productive, as you said) for a variety of reasons. That's for the captain (and crew) of Virtirium to decide. He has all the information and can make a better informed decision, even if it seems odd to us.

To me, this sounds like you're more interested in getting to the end-game rather than the content in the middle; or the content in the middle has too much grind and not enough meat to be interesting.

Quite the contrary.
Without going into it at length again, I'm not a WoW player. I couldn't stand the game. I play a game only if I can enjoy it. I'm not some thirteen year old only looking to get to...actually I'm speaking out of turn on this subject as I really don't know the point of getting to the end of the game in WoW. On that note, I'm really not sure the point of getting to the end of any MMO, which tends to be when there's little reason to play anymore in most games. But I really can't knock Blizzard's business plan. They could fund several other games with the profits they're pulling in. (And do, I'm sure) [/end tangent]
I have no desire to work 10+ hour days only to come home and be paying a monthly subscription to stare at a field of rocks, click on one, and hit a key, and continue this for...hours. That's work. That's not fun, nor does it require any thought. If I play a game these days, it must be cooperative and engaging. Something that mindless and I'd look for a way to write a program to do it for me, or hire someone to perform the task. That way I can actually have fun when I play the game after getting home, where I were to sit down with friends and, as a weyr of dragons engage targets in battle where the tactics used make or break the fight! I rather enjoy the crafting too...so I suppose it's just the resource grinding that feels most like punishment.

Regarding LOVWYRM's comment of the majority of players being against such a model [that would leave friends behind]: As an outsider looking in on this game it appears most have already left this game behind, which is what worries me. Please feel free to suggest options that would not (in your opinion) do this. I'm trying to find revenue generating bonuses that do not effect game mechanics in such a manner as to out-level people in certain arenas. If someone can have more than one cargo disc, they're still playing the game, and are not leaving anyone behind.

Again, "Spreading the word" and motivating people is a very hard sell. The only thing that I see Istaria has going for it right now is the fact that you can play as a dragon, and the crafting system. The game's graphics engine is far past its prime and anyone interested in paying 10 or *looks up how much WoW costs* 15 dollars a month has far more attractive options. I personally know of several games that are free to play, have a very strong community such as this one, and...I'm sorry to say, a lot more going for them. I'd be a horrible friend if I were to "spread the word" about this one while neglecting to mention those.

If "Spreading the word" were enough to keep this game populated enough to perform major construction projects or populate the plots, you wouldn't have to spread it. The player base would already be large enough that this entire conversation wouldn't be happening in the first place. I know it's not fun to hear, and I'm sorry to have to say it, but unless you've already years invested in this game there's little point in starting a new subscription here.

As for my ideas being touted as "evil": It is said that money is the root of all evil, so while there may be some credence to that, I don't understand the following argument:

Dollardoping supported games do not have improved support or stable servers. The contrast is the case. With more being Pay2Win, the support as well as server stability becomes neglected and enworsens, because it's not predictable whether the customer will still play without paying or not.

Isn't declining server stability and support exactly what happened to this game before Virtirium took it over? The idea that a profitable game would be neglected doesn't make sense from a business standpoint: If it makes you money, it's a focus. Neglecting your customer...well, there's a saying: "If you don't take care of the customer, someone else will." I believe (and I may be wrong) the statement was intended to imply that additional funds from this business model would promote new content in the manner of additional items to purchase, to increase revenue, rather than being reinvested towards maintenance and server stability. *muses* Personally, if I were Rick Simmons, I'd find that insulting. It attacks both his ethics and intelligence. Granted, new content would be nice, even if it were a purchasable upgrade, but, as my original analogy stated: patching and painting the hull of the cruise ship is going to happen before we add a rock wall. No, additional revenue is not going to take away from system stability. If anything, it might fund the implementation of a fix that stops my client from crashing to the desktop once an hour or so.

I'll have to spawn a new thread in general regarding this mentality, and share some stories there, so as not to get this thread any further off-topic. This one is designed to discuss revenue increasing options for Viritrium; not to argue them.

But rather than harping on how "evil" such a suggestion is, or "unfair" (as though some of the players would be declined the right to purchase premium content?) perhaps generating suggestions instead that you do not view as "unfair" or "evil" would be more constructive.

[Midomiko]

I have no desire to work 10+ hour days only to come home and be paying a monthly subscription to stare at a field of rocks, click on one, and hit a key, and continue this for...hours. That's work. That's not fun, nor does it require any thought. If I play a game these days, it must be cooperative and engaging.

So join the public channels (very easy to do, just click on the little chat bubble at the bottom right of your chat window then find the most populated ones - typically Marketplace and New Player Assistance), and find yourself some new friends to cooperate and engage with. Yes, that sounds like a sarcastic and cynical response, but it's exactly what will get you more feeling like it's a game and less a work simulator. In any MMO, it is always more fun to do stuff with someone else (or at least chatting away while you do something), than to put your nose to the grindstone and wail away how awful it is that the game as it is does not suit how you want it to be.

Something that mindless and I'd look for a way to write a program to do it for me, or hire someone to perform the task.

This statement is making me tread dangerously close to launching personal attacks. Players who bot or support the RTM industry are what is wrong with all online gaming today, they create far more problems than they solve in the name of their selfish need to "get ahead" or "lead the endgame". Most games' TOS and/or EULA specifically prohibit scripts and bots on a bannable level, and likewise prohibit account sharing on such a level (not to mention the majority of those who let someone else level them have just opened their account to being stripped of what little they have or being used as a mule to offload items stolen from other accounts). Denial or "Oh I never knew that!" is the usual response to this, but the fact of the matter is that it DOES happen and IS true. I have personally watched such things destroy ingame economies, and cause players to lose their accounts/characters/money outright in multiple games, including the very one you name in your first post - UO - remember how the market took a huge dump on keeps and castles, and for that matter player housing in general? That was almost exclusively because of people encouraging botting, gold selling, and other similar things, and also paved the way for ebay to ban all sales of MMO related accounts/items at the behest of multiple game developers.

If someone can have more than one cargo disc, they're still playing the game, and are not leaving anyone behind.

On a smaller note, allowing people to buy access to a second cargo disk DOES grant an ingame advantage, and actually quite a huge one when you look at the ingame economy regarding plot construction. Allowing such a thing would guarantee that any player who preferred the play of building up other people's plots to make their silver would be at a massive disadvantage by not purchasing such an account enhancement.

[Raptress]

I believe that players in the past have said that they were willing to pay real dollars for in-game "fluff" items, but were almost entirely against the availability of items that gave players willing to pay real dollars an in-game advantage over those who paid only a subscription.

I'm very reluctant myself to see such things as experience boosters be put into the game, and there are a good number of things that I would never want to see made purchasable for real dollars (like weapons/gear).

Games with a Free to Play/Pay to Win model have always struck me as having the sort of community that values nothing other than being better than everyone else, and that model seems a poor fit for the community that we have here in Istaria that often gets touted almost as a feature of the game itself. I'm not saying you're suggesting this model, but I see adding experience boosters as a step in that direction.

I also see that you talk about paying real money for gold and character gear and/or levels in World of Warcraft as if that's a part of acceptable game play, which it is not; it is something that people get banned from the game for rather than being one of the sides of WoW's coin. I probably would not have mentioned that particular practice, especially not in such a lax manner, if I were posting a similar topic.

But you're not asking for my opinion on that nor even on your suggestions, but rather my own, to which I say: I would still not mind and might even partake of "fluff" items that were bought with real money. When I say "fluff," I mean in-game items such as shoulder-pets or masks or maybe even special plot structures, etc., items that are very strictly non-functional in nature and there only to look pretty.

Again though, I am fairly sure that this came up in the past, and since then I have seen no mention of it by the devs. It could be that they have decided they don't actually want to have a business model that involves players paying for anything outside of account services. Pure conjecture on my part, of course.

Other than fluff items though, I cannot think of anything suitable. I had a thought about donations that go towards specific non-essential game improvements, e.g., more character creation options or something, but I can see that backfiring.

[Teto Frum]

Maybe it is just my circle of friends ingame but to our group I think what keeps most us here is each other not the game. Istaria, on Order at least has become as much a community as a game, several guilds far out weigh the game in holding players. If you find a place in a good group of people you seem to stay longer in Istaria.

The game play has been sped up dramatically since VI took over trying to both attract and get people staying longer. BUT it is an old school design before the instant gratification crowd had jumped over from console gaming and will always seem a real grind to those types.

The game has very little out of game support and these days zero to be honest and that is weird to people who joined the MMO world later as loot replaced exploring as a MMOs foundation.

There will always be class divide in any MMO the only question is do you create it by playtime like Istaria, the most popular to get in the highest raids most often like WOW or by bringing real life money into the equation like numerous Pay to Win models. I don't favour the Pay to Win model in any way though sry.

Only marketing has the possibility of a capital injection for HZ, the question is do enough even stay long term to justify the original marketing outlay. Ive my doubts that Istaria could hold much of a population surge with the current state of the game and it's available support.

[FoxFlame]

Mido, let's try to keep this thread on topic and keep the discussion about revenue generation, the ways by which to do this, and how they might effect the game. I'm just as guilty of this, so I'm stopping myself here. As it's not supposed to be about, "Well you should do this if you're bored" I'll try to get the free time to create a separate thread in...another forum, whichever is most appropriate for discussing the differences between this game and others; the good and the bad, etc. I'll respond on the "grinding is boring" part of our discussion in the aforementioned thread, and why UO's economy failed due to any 'gold-sink' mechanism, among other things. But please do try to avoid personal attacks. I'm not sure if they're against any forum TOS, but I feel we'd be more constructive if the conversation remained as mature and objective as possible.

Raptress, I'm starting to wonder the same, regarding your statements about the dev's plans. Given all the negative response I've seen thus far regarding "pay for anything" it may indeed be true that the dev's have given up on the concept of making Istaria profitable, and simply a 'labor of love', if only part-time for them. Sort of swabbing the decks but never adding the rock wall. If that's the case, it's a chicken and the egg scenario as to why it came about: Did they decide they don't want to make Istaria competitive, or did the opinions of the player base, regarding business model bring them to that conclusion. As you said, it's all conjecture, but interesting from a psychological point of view. If the latter is the case, at least they're far more benevolent than the previous owners.

I'm not sure how difficult it would be (without intricate knowledge of the game engine) to implement shoulder pets or the sort. I suppose it would depend on the editors they're using. I wonder if there's a dedicated artist for textures and modeling, or if someone (more likely) has that role, among others. If so, he or she is probably being tasked with higher priorities such as client stability and game fixes. I read somewhere that Mr. Simmons originally wanted art development tasked out to a separate group entirely, but I doubt they've the subscriptions or revenue in general to support such endeavorers these days.

Mido, how would having two cargo discs be different than multi-clienting with a follow command? (Apart from being more convenient) I'd be curious if Istaria tracks by IP, and how hard it would be to proxy that way for additional accounts. (Since they're free to create and miners gather resources fastest anyway) I guess what I'm saying is that things like this already exist in different ways, so why not make it more convenient?

[Raptress]

Given all the negative response I've seen thus far regarding "pay for anything" it may indeed be true that the dev's have given up on the concept of making Istaria profitable, and simply a 'labor of love', if only part-time for them.

That isn't what I said. x3 I said that it could be that the devs don't want Istaria to have content that's only unlocked by paying extra money on top of a subscription. That doesn't mean that they don't want Istaria to be profitable; I have no doubts that VI would much rather have the game make money.

I was looking at it more from a design standpoint: having content only accessible via paying extra money vs. having all content available via your subscription type.

I'm not sure how difficult it would be (without intricate knowledge of the game engine) to implement shoulder pets or the sort.

Shoulder-pets already exist, as do masks and plot structures. There are, in fact, a good number of (as far as I am aware) unused assets for shoulder-pets in the game's files. Something like a double cargo disk, however, I can see being far more difficult to add to the game.

[C`gan]

Personally, being one of the longest remaining long-time players of Istaria (December 26, 2003), I feel it necessary to jump in here.

I play Istaria BECAUSE of building. It's how I relax. I'm not a great hunter or a speed leveler. I've only started multiclassing in adventuring (*SHOCKING GASP heard round the world*). My level 100 classes are fitter, carpenter, mason, and weaver. Tagath's a 100/100/63 dragon. It's only been in the last 6ish months that I've started hitting 100s. So, with those qualifications in mind, here's what I care to offer.

In order for Istaria to generate revenue, they need subscribers. Now, whether those subscribers choose the non-plot recurring 9.95 or the plot monthly recurring 14.95, it doesn't matter. Each subscription adds that much more a month to the coffers. The additional monthly income from the add-on recurrings (character slots/consigner stacks) is a supplemental income to the subscriptions. Extras such as the cafepress store (Yes, Istaria does have one up and running) add additional supplemental income for the team. However, the main financial support for this game remains subscriptions. I believe wholeheartedly that the simple plan of more subscriptions = more profit is true for Istaria. So, to that end, I find it more helpful to get the word out that Istaria is still here, is still growing and changing, and that people who've been gone for a while may want to come back and see the changes.

As for myself, I have two recurring subscriptions. In the near future, I do intend to add a third. It's not because I'm out of character slots, nor do I really need an extra plot or lair. For me, it's the right thing to do to keep Istaria running for more people to enjoy as I do.

[Midomiko]

Mido, let's try to keep this thread on topic and keep the discussion about revenue generation, the ways by which to do this, and how they might effect the game. I'm just as guilty of this, so I'm stopping myself here

Apologies if I come across passionately about that, but I have personally had to clean up messes in more than one game where a guildmate decided it was ok to use a third party to either acquire gold or powerlevel them while they were at work that ended up with said player's characters stripped of everything of value, high level characters deleted out of spite, and guild vaults/storage robbed of everything of value. Consequences such as that rarely factor into the initial decision to use such outside resources because they are "more convenient" than actually playing the game how it was designed. These kinds of choices affect far more than just the person making them.

Mido, how would having two cargo discs be different than multi-clienting with a follow command? (Apart from being more convenient) I'd be curious if Istaria tracks by IP, and how hard it would be to proxy that way for additional accounts. (Since they're free to create and miners gather resources fastest anyway) I guess what I'm saying is that things like this already exist in different ways, so why not make it more convenient?

A problem with multiple discs compared to simply dual-clienting? Ok, I'll bite. Running two clients with one simply following as a packmule is not nearly as simple as it sounds, especially with multi-step processing involved, such as with all plot construction materials. Using a packmule would require operating out of one disc to harvest then process twice before passing it over to the alt, rinsing and repeating many times over as that second disc is only available for storage of the final product - because you cannot access said disc on the main for direct processing/production without using the trade window repeatedly in smaller transactions. Using two discs at once would permit one to cut out not only the many trades involved in passing completed resources to the alt, but the multiple trades passing those back at the plot structure for application. Not only that, but being able to use two discs at once would permit one massive harvesting round to be converted in the first processing trip (smelting, making bricks, etc) rather than making several additional trips to fill up the first disc on an alt, and simply drop one disc once it is full and continue working out of the second til it fills as well without needing to travel to a portal. This has moved far beyond the realm of convenience - to where one would be able to cut off anywhere from 25-40% of the time invested into construction of any structure. While that may not sound like a big deal when dealing with a 2-3k disc size, it is massive when you look at the 12k capacity T5 disc, doubling to 24k plus backpack capacity.

[Lachesis]

Another evil doer here

Other games I've played have had many great shop items that haven't imbalanced game play at all but have been mainly cosmetic and allowed the player to personalise their character or their housing:

Pets that just run about with you.
Outfits that have no stats - stats that have been crafted/obtained during game play can be added to these outfits, or you can just wear them around town.
Changing your characters face, body type, hair colour or scales.
Housing items that don't provide any extra benefit but add a personal touch to your plot/lair.
Extra rented vault space.
Mounts that are rented for 30 days or 7 days, they don't even have to increase speed they just look different and give your feet a rest from all the running. Or they could also be available in the game for silver.

The idea of making the cash shop items also available in the game via different means works well as players are never forced to part with cash to acquire them.

I agree with the original poster that gathering resources in Istaria is a grind, (and I've noticed that sometimes the chat channels are completely silent for hours on end). I see nothing wrong with boosters, it's something that I'm unlikely to buy because I have the time to grind but I have no problem with people who don't have the time buying them so they can use their limited gaming time to do something less tedious. I've never understood people who use terms like 'work' or 'earned' to describe game play, I play games to have fun and personally I don't think it should feel like work.

Something I've seen in other games that I wouldn't want to see is the 'lucky box' cash shop item, where there is a random item contained in the 'box' that you buy. Players then have to repeatedly buy boxes until they get the item they want or... stop gambling their money. I always felt cheated by these kinds of items and think that in the end they do more harm than good.

Obviously I'm not in favour of items that imbalance the game play to be available in a cash shop. Gear with stats should only be available through adventuring or (ideally) crafting.

In so far as a game vision, I'd love to be a part of changing the world of Istaria. Coming together collectively and building towns, cities and bridges sounds absolutely wonderful. Unfortunately because not enough people play this game to allow that kind of large-scale construction the nearest I feel I'll ever get to that is if I help someone build a small piece of a plot, which is nice but not the same thing at all. At the moment peoples main achievable goal seems to be to level to 100/100 which sadly, in reality, isn't that different from the goal of a theme park style mmo (ding).

[Lord Shinobai]

I believe that players in the past have said that they were willing to pay real dollars for in-game "fluff" items, but were almost entirely against the availability of items that gave players willing to pay real dollars an in-game advantage over those who paid only a subscription.

I'm very reluctant myself to see such things as experience boosters be put into the game, and there are a good number of things that I would never want to see made purchasable for real dollars (like weapons/gear).

I've been wanting to weigh in but hesitant due to the fact ever time I started writing a response, there just seemed to be too many ways I wanted to go with my response that I got overwhelmed. Above pretty much sums up a couple key points to my feelings on this though.

Shoulder-pets already exist, as do masks and plot structures. There are, in fact, a good number of (as far as I am aware) unused assets for shoulder-pets in the game's files

This is a good basis to start adding the "fluff" that people who play WILL pay for.

Right now, I would say that over half of the income that is generated by the player base is that of additional subscriptions, not of invidiual entities. I know far too many in game who have at least 2 concurrent logins, if not more. The point I'm trying to bring up here, and one that is already known, is the fact that although the population is currently low the players who pay to play are very dedicated and willing to pay extra to enchance that experience. Whether their motives are additional concurrent logins, or the additional plot slots, there is plenty of proof that a market exists well enough to warrent at least the exploration into a system that offers 'fluff' for cash.

Heck, a "Talk to the Team" into this idea at the bare minimum, I would imagine, give enough feedback to not only explore whether it was worth the time and effort to implement and sustain such a market, but provide a lot of feedback from those said players who are payed subscription(s).

There is so much that can be added that gives no advantage in combat, experience game, etc but offers rich enhancement to individuals gameplay, catering to the things that have kept people interested in the game. Some of the recent additions to plots could have been part of this market, and this touches just one, albiet a large one, of the "sub-markets" within a "Pay for Fluff" market. (Plots, from herein, include lairs, so that I might be less redundant with any points I make)

Both through talking and experience, a lot of people who pay for additional plot(s) do so so that they might have a plot, or plots, where they can just do whatever they want and make it look nice, play with the different "fluff" structures and such whereas their "main" plot was focused with maximizing the space to add just that, more space (inventory, storage, vault, etc). No, i'm not saying that all "fluff" should be made to be paid for, but it should come to no surprise to anyone that the willingness to pay for additional structures and such to make their plot more "unique" would definitely be there. Some might reply, saying "well if they're willing to do these things for free, as they come now, why change that?". Well that goes back to the whole point of the topic, as I see it anyways.

[Going slightly off tangent] I would like to hope (as eluded/stated by others throughout this thread) that additional money would mean an overall improvement to various aspects of the game *from where it is now*. In the end, all we can do is hope that increased revenue would be spent towards the game, into the company, and not pure "profit".

We must realize that this would be in varying forms of changes, both long term and short. We would also have to realize that, in hoping, not everything is open for all to know when/how money is being spent as well as what VI's plans are. [/tangent]

Increasing revenue will give the resources for additional man hours, additional employees, additional assets that can both help to correct current issues that *everyone* knows about and wants fixed, as well as improving various aspects of new content that is added/released (speed, quality, quantity)

*realizes this is why I had a hard time to begin with in forming a response as I peer at the length of this reply*

In the end, my overall point is that I see what I think the OP is trying to get at and maybe more:

-The need for additional revenue
-The market, as well as both existing and possible structures, that exist
to implement a method for obtaining said addition;
-And, the desire that is already there (and, as I said, somewhat proven)
to make it successful.

[FoxFlame]

First: I feel compelled to say I'm very impressed with the overall quality of posts in this thread. Given the state of the Internet today (where I frequently weep for the English language) I'm frequently awed by much of the community's response here.

I'm only on a break at work, so I'll have to comment further on that later.

A problem with multiple discs compared to simply dual-clienting? Ok, I'll bite.
...
This has moved far beyond the realm of convenience - to where one would be able to cut off anywhere from 25-40% of the time invested into construction of any structure. While that may not sound like a big deal when dealing with a 2-3k disc size, it is massive when you look at the 12k capacity T5 disc, doubling to 24k plus backpack capacity.

Everything just described, and much of what I neglected to list, sounds very inconvenient. From my (limited) experience, it is. Without delving into "pay to play versus pay to 'work' at a game" (which I'll save for that other thread) I suppose I'd have to ask, "Why is this a bad thing?" Would it make a difference if, with the secondary disc, (which need not be the same size a T5; magnitude could be adjusted) it somehow caused a decrease in the ultimate completion time of the structure, such as a timer? If it's how fast the structure goes up, it could just be that "If you used any resources from a double-disc there will be a calculated timer to delay the final usage of the structure". At least during that time the user, who has generated additional revenue for the game, can be either offline getting responsbilites accomplished, rather than still running back and forth, or trading with a mule.

It might just be that I don't see it as bad because...I don't know anyone who enjoys anything you just described. (E.g. Grinding, hauling, etc) I'd likely have more misgivings if it were anything combat related. To my knowledge, the only reason grinding exists at all is because it's easier to create content that is simply the same thing forever, and exists as hurdles within any subscription based game to generate additional revenue by making it take longer for the user to accomplish a task. If a manner could be implemented to simply continue to contribute the revenue that would have been generated over that period of time by the user in a 'lump sum' by the purchase of the item that would reduce that period of time, at the cost of making the structure take longer to be 'built'...I can't see the issue. It's a bit like the fact that you have to have created your character at least 100 days ago to be an ancient. That way someone with infinite time on their hands can't grind their way up to that status in less than that time. (Personally I feel 100 days is too short, but that's me)