Talk to the Team: Metals

[Yarsgo]

Thanks for putting this out there, Amon...

1. Maybe consider making the 2ndary metals copper/tin or iron (would keep us from setting aside an extra silo, too :) ) Another consideration might be taking nickel completely out of the game (this addresses jerko-s idea as well (which i personally like).

2. Bronze ore shouldn't be too confusing of a change - and might work easier in the minds of a noob, anyway (ref: knossos' above mentioned experience)

3. Ask me again in a month after I'm back into the swing of things here ;)

[LungTien Temeraire]

1. I second this idea. This will make these things a bit easier. I think craft levelling is long enough with single components' resources, and higher tier resources are slow enough to use even with equipment.

2. I second this too. New players might be confused with the related resources' names.

3. I don't know about that.

[Marynah]

I had gotten used to alloys but I do like it better without. Changing Steel to Nickel (or some other metal) in name would certainly work for that.

I feel sad that schools might be failing to teach about the Bronze Age, and thus answering 'What is bronze?' in the process. I guess I am thankful I am one of those that got an education from my time in school. I'm not in favor of dumbing something down like that, but I'm not going to get upset about it if it happens.

[Takora Drakan]

It might sound odd, but Horizons/Istaria made help to understand how metals are made, and even so I could pass some tests when we learned about the metals back in school. Because I knew you would need to smelt iron and nickel to get steel.

I loved the fact that Istaria kept "real" with the metals. In RL you also smelt copper and tin to get bronze, same with the cobalt, you smelt cobalt with nickel to get cobalt bars.

Boo me out all you want, I like when a game tries to keep real with the crafting, and so with also the metals. I know mithrill is not real and such, but in RL you also have to make alloys to make a durable metal, if you don't mix stuff together, you get a crumbling bar that does not hold long when crafted into something.

Just a few cent from a beta player, but I get now back to lurking.

[Guaran]

I don't see the harm in removing the metals used in anything that isn't really an alloy anyway, which is everything except bronze and steel. Since bronze bars are easier by default and a single ore, it is unaffected either way.

The "Pure" metals such as silver gold platinum and mithril should never have been changed into alloys (only mithril was changed, used to be pure). Adamantium I do not know if is a fictional alloy or pure metal. Stick with whatever its' fictional history says it is.

Steel can remain the dual resource it currently is.

I would NOT rename copper and tin ore. Instead, add some text to the ore which says "This ore can be smelted into Bronze bars." Bronze ore sounds, well, stupid.

[tjl]

For those of you wondering why they changed it. Officially it was about consistency and making metalworking "different" from the other crafts:

Our goal with this change was to bring a more streamlined and consistent progression of the ore working experience, from the single ore requirement of Bronze Bars to the introduction of the "alloys" beginning with Steel Bars at Tier 3. It has always been our intention with Istarian Metal, to have a different "feel" and experience than the other raw/processing resources found in Istaria. The biggest change with Mithril that you will notice is that now you get more experience per bar, with that change you will need to gather more ore per single bar. Please note that we will continue to monitor the effects of this change to the Metal Bar Formulae closely

Rumors were the change came in because metalworking at t5 was "too easy" compared to other materials. Mithril was not an alloy and there was a player town less than 600 yards away from the resource spawn.

Several craft classes could power level rapidly using mithril. (This was before the primary skill change) and sell those items to a nearby pawnbroker for silver. This was one of the reasons they added the pawnbroker caps (There were rumors of people making over 1g per day on mithril).

I certainly remember the uproar this caused in the crafting community. It was a controversial change to say the least. I think with the systems that are in place now, making metals non-alloy would be fine.

[Delite]

I've played several MMO's where more than 1 type of material was required to make a metal bar. Yes even for a bronze bar - sulfur and copper ore was needed; for iron copper and coal was needed. I don't think the ore name should be changed to bronze ore.

Because I'm not yet a high enough skill to really work with much besides steel, I won't really comment on the removal of a second material necessary to create metal bars.

[lightning claw]

Crafting is evil In fact and you can ask most old folks on chaos about this when i was a hachie i developed a rather odd allergy to sandstone spell shards getting back on to topic . any thing that makes adventuring more difficult and crafting less of a grind I openly welcome

renaming copper tin would it not be simpler to just call it copper ore ?

[Dhalin]

OMG OMG OMG YES YES YES YES.

Please remove the Alloys. Please. Please.

Wanna know what's the best way to level Blacksmithing?

Stone Tools.
What's the best way to level DLSH?
Anything that doesn't require Alloy.
What's the best way to level (insert craft here)? Anything that you can get around using Alloys for.

The only 2 crafts I know of that are impossible to skip alloys are Weaponsmith and Armorsmith. I've tried to PL Armorsmithing by using high-level ore, and it just drags out because of linked spawns (I hate hate hate hate mining Ore in Dralk, the ONLY place I know of where you can do unguarded cobalt in any quantity, has a linked field clear across the stupid continent/area) and other annoyances.

It is one of the reasons why it is nearly impossible to level metal-based crafts while you level your adventurer -- you usually need to PL it with another craft (usually Blacksmithing) unless you enjoy copious amounts of digging.

I've always seen it as a needless hassle and I would very much welcome its removal.

Let's look at it this way:

Do Tailors need to gather two different types of unspun cloth? No.
Do Stoneworkers need to gather two different types of slabs? No.
Do Woodworkers need to gather two different types of wood? No.
Do Leatherworkers need to gather two different types of Tannin? Not that I know of, you only need hides from easy-to-find mobs.
Do Essence Orbs require two different types of Essence? No.

So why does Metal follow a completely different rule?

Answer: Who knows.

Edit:

For the other two questions:

2). I don't see anything wrong with re-naming Copper & Tin to Bronze. It is less spammy, and gets rid of the confusion.

3). The whole Leatherworking thing, a part of me wonders if there's really a point to making us make not only the Tannin, but also grab skins (something you have to do at Tier 1 -and- Tier 6, still have to go and skin cows/deer/whatever), but then my experience with Leatherworking is fairly limited but it always seemed like a hassle to me.

[awdz]

Tannin actually requires [either sap or bark] and water to make it before using it with hide strips to make armor/backpacks out of it. If hide/leather armor were used half as frequently as metal, I'd be calling for crafting those to be changed, too. Due to the low use/demand for them, I don't think it worth the effort to change leatherworking now, though.

[Dhalin]

Tannin actually requires [either sap or bark] and water to make it before using it with hide strips to make armor/backpacks out of it. If hide/leather armor were used half as frequently as metal, I'd be calling for crafting those to be changed, too. Due to the low use/demand for them, I don't think it worth the effort to change leatherworking now, though.

Hmm.

I can kinda agree there I guess.

The metals though, were the main problem. Other than possibly leatherworking, all of the other crafts look pretty much balanced and in-line with everything else.

[Frith-Rae]

The overall goal is always to make the game more fun and less tedious. The overall process of creating items from ground to sword or from ground to House is already pretty tedious and complex and the alloy system only makes it more so. Removing the alloy metals allows for less tedium, more building and item creation, and more fun.

I totally agree. Which is why I totally agree with the idea of taking the alloy's back out of crafting. Things are complex enough!

If it is something new players are getting hung up on then I say change the Copper and Tin Ore to Bronze (or as someone else suggested, even just Copper Ore). I never really thought about it because I never made the connection =D. For me crafting is done by always checking the craft window for the right parts before I even leave the lair so I never really went "hey that's confusing.." lol.

As for Question 3 - I think I'm with C'gan as far as the only things that really frustrate me to make and that seem overly complicated are the flow/mael stones and such due to the high number of ingredients that go into each bar and then processing, etc.

Course there are lattices but I've just come to accept that they require 3 sets of gems even if I think that's a pointless pain/grind fest...

[Kesqui]

I'll also chime in on the side of "alloys introduce painful grind, getting rid of them would make my play time nicer."

Renaming the ore to bronze ore (or renaming the ore and the metal as a DB find-and-replace-all to Copper) would probably make it a little easier for newbies to understand, since the "what they need" has the same name as the "what they need to make".

Because I only play dragons, I think the only thing I'd say is that yes, the lairshaping construction blocks seem to take an awful lot of "doing" and an awful lot of materials. It's not horrific grind to do the two-ingredient ones, but you need so MANY ingredients to do the three-ingredient ones.

[Image]

Definitely I am for removing the 2nd alloy. Mainly for the amount of time it requires to gather large amounts of resources. Though I will again suggest that increasing the average of 7 per "dig" would be a much much better way to help all area of crafting and alleviate the incredible boredom that comes from hours/ days of digging. A minimum of tripling the average would help so much more. Please :P
That a lv 100 crafter often only gets 1, 2 resource at at time (mostly when digging low resources) if extremely frustrating. :) And when digging in guarded fields where you can be attacked every few mins the already long digging time can double quickly.
Image

[Dhalin]

Definitely I am for removing the 2nd alloy. Mainly for the amount of time it requires to gather large amounts of resources. Though I will again suggest that increasing the average of 7 per "dig" would be a much much better way to help all area of crafting and alleviate the incredible boredom that comes from hours/ days of digging. A minimum of tripling the average would help so much more. Please :P
That a lv 100 crafter often only gets 1, 2 resource at at time (mostly when digging low resources) if extremely frustrating. :) And when digging in guarded fields where you can be attacked every few mins the already long digging time can double quickly.
Image

I don't want to risk the thread getting locked, or anything, but I will voice my support in making "Out-dated" tiers a bit more "tight" in amount gathered. For example, if Tier 1 maxes out at 250 skill, make it so that 300 skill gathers, say, 7-15 instead of 1-15. That way you always get at least 7 per dig. It really is frustrating when you are a Lv100 crafter, and you go to NT and hit a Sandstone node and see 1, 8, 2, 9, 1, 12, 3, 5, 9, 3 ....

[AmonGwareth]

I don't want to risk the thread getting locked, or anything, but I will voice my support in making "Out-dated" tiers a bit more "tight" in amount gathered. For example, if Tier 1 maxes out at 250 skill, make it so that 300 skill gathers, say, 7-15 instead of 1-15. That way you always get at least 7 per dig. It really is frustrating when you are a Lv100 crafter, and you go to NT and hit a Sandstone node and see 1, 8, 2, 9, 1, 12, 3, 5, 9, 3 ....

Unfortunately this isn't possible given the way the database and data-structures are setup currently for resources/gathering. Otherwise I would totally implement this.

[neva]

1. We have considered removing the second metal from the creation of Cobalt, Mithril and Adamantium Bars? So, Cobalt and Mithril Bars would no longer require Nickel, and Adamantium would no longer require Mithril. What is your opinion on this?


I can't say much here really, as I have never gotten that far in crafting (bad me, bad).

2. How would you feel if Copper&Tin Ore was renamed to Bronze Ore?

I Personally knew what Copper & Tin was, and I understood that it made bronze. Over the years, it was also just understood by those who joined into the world by assistance of the older players.

Though, if I stop thinking about us older players (both in years and in age) and I think about the 10-17 year olds out there that may find this game and want to play. Well, a 11-14 year old may not know that tin & copper make bronze.
So yes, I think for the sake of the young ones (and maybe for the ones who don't pay attention in science), that probably changing tin & ore to Bronze ore would make their lives far easier in the game.

After all, its the first thing a Dragon has to go play with!

3. Are there any other core materials (other than food) that seem overly complex to you that you might change if given the chance?

I can't think of any off hand?
I know my friend who played a hatchling character gets frustrated that its hard to do laircrafting cause of all the running around that must be had in order to make materials, but-- beyond this..
uuuh.. I can't really think of anything.

[Image]

Unfortunately this isn't possible given the way the database and data-structures are setup currently for resources/gathering. Otherwise I would totally implement this.

Aww, thanks. Wish it could be like water goes up to 40+ at times. Different system?

[Khalon]

1. Yes, please eliminate alloys! I say this in spite of having gotten my biped only about 2/3 done cranking through craft schools on mithril bars hehe.
2. Yes, I'm totally in favor of anything that reduces frustration for new/young players. This amazing game needs as many players staying as we can manage :). Somehow Lightningclaw's idea of calling both the ore & product "copper" rather than "bronze" sounds better than the alternative. I guess the idea of "bronze ore" just sounds a little too silly :P.
3. Leatherworking is a minor annoyance. I also agree that the demand for leather goods is low enough that it probably doesn't merit developer time at the moment.

Many thanks Amon for all that you & the rest of the team do!

[Chasing]

*goes even more off topic :P*

To chime in on the the theme of lairshaping resources.

I found T1 and T2 the worst tiers to complete as the resources are spread out and in difficult to reach positions sometimes. Ironically from T3 upwards they are much easier to gather.

For example

• A community lair in parsinia that you can only reach by flying).
• Excluding NT, the gems in kion volcano are miles away from a town so you have to drag your disc a long way as a hatchie.
• No viridian crystals or crystalshaper on NT (I remember crystals being on NT during beta of lairs). Also there is that community lair in NT that is empty, would be useful to redesign it to give new players a taste of what lairs are really like.
• No community crystalshaper on genevia island
• ?Are there dim wisps on genevia island? Can't remember
• Only one good spot for silver by the silver golems
• No close location for T2 gems and T2 Azulyte for making lattices (with a community machine)
• No pale wisps near to Slate Crest, Slate Hills or Snowfall (although there is AI)

Additionally if I remember correctly, the lairshaper school gets more xp than a biped craft school per created/placed end product to compensate for the additional amount of subcomponents needed to create the final pieces.