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Thread: Talk to the Team: Metals

  1. #41

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    Quote Originally Posted by Takora Drakan View Post
    It might sound odd, but Horizons/Istaria made help to understand how metals are made, and even so I could pass some tests when we learned about the metals back in school. Because I knew you would need to smelt iron and nickel to get steel.

    I loved the fact that Istaria kept "real" with the metals. In RL you also smelt copper and tin to get bronze, same with the cobalt, you smelt cobalt with nickel to get cobalt bars.

    Boo me out all you want, I like when a game tries to keep real with the crafting, and so with also the metals. I know mithrill is not real and such, but in RL you also have to make alloys to make a durable metal, if you don't mix stuff together, you get a crumbling bar that does not hold long when crafted into something.

    Just a few cent from a beta player, but I get now back to lurking.

    While I would love to see the the 2nd resource needed for alloys removed, I kinda feel the same way about how its necessary to need more than one type of metal to create a newer, stronger alloy. Instead of needing to physically gather the two different metals tho, I wonder if they can be 'combined' all into one node, kinda like how Copper and Tin nodes are. The alloys like cobalt and steel could be renamed to something similar to how Copper & Tin nodes are, for example, Cobalt and Nickle Ore (to replace Cobalt nodes) , or Nickle and Iron Ore (to replace Nickle nodes). In the description of the ore it could be noted what type of alloy that ore is used to create, perhaps craft trainers provide a little direction as well. Could keep separate Iron Ore nodes so regular Iron bars can be made. I think that Copper and Tin should be left as is, I know (for dragons anyway..) on Skalkaar the Craft trainer tells you to go gather Copper and Tin Ore and tells you to craft the ore into Bronze bars, most who read and pay attention to the tutorials don't seem to have many problems with needing Copper and Tin to make Bronze bars.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    I see several people are in favor of the renaming of the ore to "bronze". But really, how confusing can this be? Open the beginner metal bar formula, you see bronze bars, you select that and the item creation window opens, specifially telling you what the ingredients are.

    It's not at all difficult to learn, doesn't make crafting any easier.

    The removal of the alloyed metals extra ingredient, this does make crafting easier and will have a real impact.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    I also agree with removing the alloys. It would make crafting metals more fun for me :)

  4. #44

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    Additionally if I remember correctly, the lairshaper school gets more xp than a biped craft school per created/placed end product to compensate for the additional amount of subcomponents needed to create the final pieces.
    XP gain doesn't mean anything when you're Level 100 and trying to build stuff, or, you're doing (again) hallways (something bipeds don't have to do).

    They reduced the amount of end products needed for hallways, but it still takes a couple hours to pound out a hallway. *shrugs* But either way, once you're Lv100 and re-doing your lair to the best it can be, you're still feeling the pain of the huge resource hogs that you're working with.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Wanted to run a couple questions by you all, get your feedback. Please keep on-topic and to the specific questions.

    1. We have considered removing the second metal from the creation of Cobalt, Mithril and Adamantium Bars? So, Cobalt and Mithril Bars would no longer require Nickel, and Adamantium would no longer require Mithril. What is your opinion on this?

    2. How would you feel if Copper&Tin Ore was renamed to Bronze Ore?

    3. Are there any other core materials (other than food) that seem overly complex to you that you might change if given the chance?
    If l am allowed to speak (although not so experienced and free-to-player):

    1. Double feeling. Thinking selflishly - yes, yes, remove all double elements so that power-levelling would be super-power levelling! Thinking about game - more negative than positive. If metal bar requires 2 components, it may mean (althought I do not know what developer had in mind) that it is a difficult and high-technological metal to make. Yes, it makes some running when trying to make mithrill or cobalt bars - but wait a second, we have all the double ores needed when making these metals (not sure about higher tiers as I did not try to mine them)

    2. Sorry, I am accustomed to Copper and Tin. I would dislike "bronze vein".

    3. No idea as I tried metalworkinf (blacksmith/weaponsmith) only

  6. #46

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    1. Double feeling. Thinking selflishly - yes, yes, remove all double elements so that power-levelling would be super-power levelling! Thinking about game - more negative than positive. If metal bar requires 2 components, it may mean (althought I do not know what developer had in mind) that it is a difficult and high-technological metal to make. Yes, it makes some running when trying to make mithrill or cobalt bars - but wait a second, we have all the double ores needed when making these metals (not sure about higher tiers as I did not try to mine them)
    You've stated that you are a "not so experienced" player who has not tried to mine the "higher tiers".

    I'm not sure you're quite understanding what exactly is meant by this, so I'll attempt an explanation.

    We're not talking about something like Copper & Tin Ore being smelted into Bronze Bars.

    We're talking about, say, Steel.

    To make a Steel Bar, you have to go out and collect (if you have maximum efficiency!) 2 Nickel Ore and 1 Iron Ore to make 1 Steel Bar.

    To make a Cobalt Bar, you have to go out and collect 2 Cobalt Ore, and 1 Nickel Ore to make 1 Cobalt Bar. Again, this is at 100% maximum efficiency.

    For Mithril, you have to.. yes... 2 Mithril Ore + 1 Cobalt Ore = 1 Mithril Bar. Or was that Platinum instead of cobalt? I forget.

    So that means it takes, at best, 3 Ore for 1 bar, and the one ore doesn't stack with the other which means that Tarbash/Normal Dragon Cargo Disk of yours will not work, at least not as well. With Copper&Tin/Iron Ore, you can go out and get a Tarbash/Dragon Disk + Full Inventory and go back to the smelter and smelt. Not with Steel, Cobalt, or Mithril, though! You have to do the math, you have to gather X amount of Nickel/Cobalt/Mithril and then gather one-half that of Iron/Nickel/Cobalt (or Plat). But, wait. You have to also calculate how much room you can hold, try to figure out the logistics, etc etc etc. You got, say 3000 inventory + 12000 disk? Hmm, that's... 15000 max capacity, each ore takes 10, so that's 1500 ore, um... that's 1000 of 1, 500 of the other... meh, all of that, you're only going to get 500 bars. Meanwhile, if you were doing stone, you'd get 750 bricks out of 1500 slabs.

    It takes twice as much time to do, as working any other material. Stone? You can make Obsidian Stone Bricks by gathering, yes, Obsidian Stone Slabs. You can go out and get a Tarbash full of Marble anytime you want, and make anything made of Marble right then and there.

    But Metal? No, no, no. You have to run circles around doing previous-tier junk, take up 30% more room for the same amount of bars you produce (they could have at least made it so that you make 2 bars per batch instead of 1 to compensate).

    It is a HUGE time-waster, and that's why a lot of people want it gone already.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    Well, I do understand that the question goes about, say, Nickel in making Steel and Cobalt. At the moment I write, my character mines Cobalt ore (Motherloads are good...) and later will run for Nickel.
    Yes, I have to run for second ore (at current level - Nickel). Yes, I had to calculate how many of each ore can I harvest. In my opinion, it may represent:
    a) real situation in real life;
    b) complexity of metalworking.
    I am not sure about fantasy metals like mithrill, adamantium (only dealt with Mithrill so far. And yes, Mithrill requires Platinium).
    I find it justified that since Stell I have to run for second metal just because working with metal (in reality) is always difficult. No complaints about second ingredients.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    1. I think it's a good idea. Again, as Dhalin said, it's a huge time-waster. I have tried it myself, and Lord the result is super slow.

    2. Please no. Bronze ore just sounds silly. Besides, every 13 year old should know that bronze is acquired from copper and tin smelt together. Not only that, from game experience they might even use this information in school tests or whatsoever (E.g. kids in a chemistry class are given a test how bronze is made, and one writes that from bronze vein, not from copper and tin.). But usually that would happen just to dummies, lol. Just leave it as it is. I don't think it have caused any harm yet. Just keep everything real. That's what most people love in games (least me).

    3. Don't know really...

    Four years of playing and ongoing.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    1.
    The only plus to having that second metal requirement was that metal bars gave a lot of experience. That doesn't matter so much when you're no longer able to level.

    Speaking as a primary dragon player, metal is by far the most time-consuming resource to deal with, and I certainly wouldn't be complaining if the secondary metal was removed from the equation.

    2.
    I would rather not see copper and tin ore renamed to bronze ore. I am one of those that was young enough to learn something from that when I started playing Istaria, and I always found that fact rather neat.

    I'm not sure exactly how item naming works, but if it is just as easy to rename all bronze items to copper items (ex: Copper Short Sword), then I would rather see that.

    I suspect it's not that easy though, so I'd rather see copper and tin ore go unchanged in that case.

    3.
    I cannot think of any other core materials that are in a similar situation to metal. Essence work is oftentimes irritating, but that's less because of complexity, and more because of the fact that rich and motherlode wisps do not really exist.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  10. #50

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    I'll voice my support in turning all "Bronze" items into "Copper" items and calling it "Copper Ore".

    Lots of other games have you start with Copper weapons and armor from what I've seen, and the in-game artwork is already good, the items are close enough as far as color goes.

    Actually, if you ask me, some of the plate armor looks more like it is made of Copper than Bronze anyways.

    So renaming everything Bronze to Copper and then changing the Ore to similar would actually make a lot more sense, but yet, it'd take a bit more work. Instead of just renaming the Ore, you'd have to rename the Ore and -everything- made from it.

    Essence work is oftentimes irritating, but that's less because of complexity, and more because of the fact that rich and motherlode wisps do not really exist.
    I don't understand why we couldn't have Rich/Motherlode Residue, to be honest. Actually, I'd like to see less wisps and more Residue piles, I hate trying to gather from wisps, they keep wanting to float away from you while you're trying to harvest, blah blah. The only UPside to wisps, is that you can tab-target them (assuming you have tab bound to 'cycle nearest enemy' that is).

  11. #51

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    1. I would love it if the 2nd component of metals were axed.

    2. I don't really like the idea of renaming it. I'm not sure for bipeds at least for new dragons it's impossible to miss what you are supposed to mine for bronze bars. -.-

  12. #52

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    1. I would do a tap-dance on the grave of alloy metals. All the hassle of gemwork-- three different stacks clogging up your cargo disk for the price of one!-- with the extra insult of requiring you to go to last tier's fields to find what you want. Who thought that sounded fun?!

    2. The two "best" naming conventions from where I sit are either keeping everything as it is now for consistency (which favors the existing playerbase and laziness) or else renaming all the ores and bars to the same thing, taking care that none of them are real-life dual-metal alloys (which favors newbies and people who never had Metalsmithing 101 in school). It's probably the most irrelevant question, though, since in the end we just flip open the formula and go from there.

    3. Khalon already caught it, but: having dabbled in tailoring for a bit, leather and hides mystify me. I harvest a thing... and then sometimes I need to go harvest other things for a subcombine, THEN take a harvest and first subcombine and process, THEN I get my final item... unless I need more of that first subcombine? ...what? Flowstones and maelstones don't get that bad! Gah!


    I deeply respect the fun added of trying to follow real-world conventions-- I've learned some fun tidbits in my day from video games! But there's a difference between a nod to the real world that scarcely touches gameplay, and tying your gameplay in knots to refer to a world that is canonically irrelevant.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    Great idea, please get rid of the alloys! Not only is it extra work, it
    requires arithmetic and Cixi can't do that very well.

    Cixi, gnome extraordinaire
    Order shard

    Free Rachival NOW!

  14. #54

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    I would have to say I agree with Valornyx. As for renameing Copper and Tin, While it would be a Dumbing down, I don't see any harm in it. but be ready for the people that do know metals yelling. "That's not right, there is no such thing as bronze Ore" hehe......
    Eligus - Spearwoman - Order
    Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    The best scenario would have been dual smelt never instituted. But now that I am done craft levelling. And almost done with my plots, it doesnt really matter if it is changed. But hey Im all for an easy button. Would definetely make crafting metal more enjoyable. More bearable would probably be a more appropriate term. Grodec
    Experienced hunter and Grandmaster craftsman. Blight only

  16. #56

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Metals

    I appreciate all of your feedback on this.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

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