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Thread: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    In our ongoing effort to reduce grind and improve the game we'd like to run an idea past you. Currently, when you fight some types of monsters you have a chance to loot Techniques and Formulas. This chance is fairly low because they are treated as rare loot.

    The situation this creates is one in which players have to grind in order to find specific formulas or techs for a tier. Or, they have to beg from other players to grind it for them.

    A potential solution we'd like to run past you is this:

    1) Create "Chests" that are tied to categories of Formulas/Techs. So, Tier4 Weapon Formula Chest, Tier2 Spell Formula Chest, Tier3 Spell Technique Chest, and so forth.

    2) Replace direct drops of Forms/Techs on mobs with these Chests.

    3) Chests would be tradeable.

    4) When you right-click on them they would be consumed and you would get a Formula/Technique of that type and tier.

    Anticipated Pros:
    - Adventurers would no longer end up with tons of worthless formulas or techniques that they simply pawn or delete.
    - Crafters wouldn't necessarily have to grind for specific formulas, they could purchase these Chests from other players and have a greater chance of getting the form/tech they are looking for. i.e. your odds are greater of getting that specific spell form you want if the "chest" only draws from spell formulas.
    - Less time would have to be spent by everyone grinding repeatedly.
    - Fewer stacks in your inventory/plots/vaults because you could have Chests instead of the forms/techs.

    Anticipated Cons:
    - If you are the player doing both adventure/crafting and looking for specific formulas you will still have the same odds as you do now of getting the one you want.
    - May be others here (beyond the work required by the dev team), but I can't think of them.

    We welcome your feedback, questions, and suggestions on this.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    (do not understand anything- but nvm- will find someone to explain to me)
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    (do not understand anything- but nvm- will find someone to explain to me)
    Sorry, was hoping I had made it clear enough.

    Basically we would replace formulas/techniques that drop directly as loot with "chests". These chests when you right-click use them would grant a formula or technique.

    The chests would be sorted according to type and tier. Tier 1 Weapon Forms, Tier 1 Spell Forms, Tier 1 Adventure Techs, and so forth.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Will the chests stack in inventory?
    Dragon Scroll; BLIGHT~Anam, Ahleah; CHAOS~Veruliyam, Ceruliyan, Jaguarundi, Spinel, Ssussurrouss, Chon; ORDER~Aucapoma, Susurrus

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    And where would you get those chests? As a drop?
    Perhaps it would be nice to have those chests too but not instead of the direct drops.

    I also think that the loot of named mobs are extremely disappointing. Before the loot revamp it was almost certain you got something nice for your effort. Nowadays you get nothing or a junk item. No use in killing them anymore.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    I'm not sure I would buy a chest from the consignor if I didn't know which form or technique was in it. That's as bad as the formulatron. I spend enough on forms as it is without wasting my money on a *chance* to get something I need. The present system works now. I see a form and if I don't have it I buy it. Why change that?

    CloudAngel

  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    I'm not inclined to think this is a good thing. You have some chance to get a chest or as it is now a form. As it is now, you know what you have. with a chest you have no idea until you open it, like the formulatron. The same people that pawn/delete will do the same thing to the chests. Encouraging folks to contribute to the guild, or sell on connies would be better. In any event having to open the chest is yet another step in the grind. Still, someone is gonna have to grind mobs to get the chests. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a gain here. Sorry.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Hrm. I'm undecided on this idea.

    On the one hand, it would save some stack when actually out on the field hunting for forms/techs. I do find myself having to go through my inventory every hour or so and having to clear out what I've found because I can't loot anything anymore. It might save stack in storage areas, but that's only assuming that people don't open the chests to see what's inside.

    This would also save a bunch of time when consigning all the chests that you know you aren't going to be opening, but I'm not sure I see unopened chests being worth as much as a normal form/tech due to the random chance element.

    On the other hand, this might make the process of finding a specific form/tech even more annoying. If a seeker keeps buying these chests off adventurers and not getting the one they want, they've now just spent a bunch of money for no reward. This, compared to today's system, where the seeker would get what they're after in one transaction (though it will take longer to find than a chest would), seems like a wash at best.

    I do not see this reducing the grind though. If you're hunting for a specific form/tech, then you're going to be doing the same amount of grinding as before. The only time saved would be in not having to clear out your inventory during long stretches. Buuut.. that time may be reused in opening the chests if they're like the old coin purses were.

    The worst thing about coin purses was the fact that you had to wait between opening each of them. Would opening a lot of chests at a time be similar to opening a lot of coin purses? If so, I'd probably rather stick with direct drops.

    And a question: will these effectively be the same chests that formulatrons and techatrons sell? If not, what's the difference?

    .:Malestryx:.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    In my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this game is the looting system -- with the fact that even if you click "loot all" you still have to click to close the loot box.

    Now you want to add another click into the system just to see what loot a player actually received?

    I've played other games where the loot was a "surprise" and players usually priced such items at ridiculous prices. Agree with Cloud's comment about the formulatron - this would be too much like that current system (which I don't like!).

    How would this reduce the grind? When I started as a newbie, when I killed a named mobster, such as Attor, I got at least 1 tech or form which made striving to kill the named worth the experience. Now named mobs drop refurbished gears and junk more often than not. No wonder not many new players stick it out :(
    Chaos: Delite, Delicat, Delectable, Delikit, Delish & Deetara~Blight: DeeDee

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    I'd have to throw my hat in the pile of people who say "What is this supposed to solve, again?"

    So basically, Amon said "reduce grind and improve the game", that they are considering putting these chests on the mob.

    I'm really not understanding how this would fix anything -- you're still going after a random chance (opening a chest vs hoping the right form/tech drops from the mob).

    Unless, of course, the chests are smart and that they will not give you a form/tech that you already know. Now, THAT... okay THAT might actually rock.

    Is that how they work? If not, then eh.... I'd have to ask "Why?" "What does this actually solve"?

    The only good thing I can see, is the stacking issues.

    Edit: Also, please do give Rare/Named Mobs their loot back. Please. I used to hunt rare/named mobs knowing they dropped something special that was worth the trouble. Now that I know that they don't, well, I won't be doing that anymore.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    the main goal was simply that if you were out hunting you wouldn't end up with 30 different forms/techs cluttering your inventory and that you might likely end up deleting or pawning.

    Instead, you'd have a smaller number of items that you could trade to others. If you didn't want to hunt for forms/techs, you could always trade/buy them from other players and have a far better chance of getting the form/tech you were looking for than if you went hunting for them. why? Because someone else had already taken one of the loot rolls out of the equation. So your individual odds would be better. If you are hunting AND looking for particular forms/techs your odds are much lower cause you've got two loot rolls (one to get the loot table for forms, one to get a particular form). Plus, when you roll from the entire formula table you are rolling against all potential forms. with the idea I posted you'd only be rolling against say weapon forms or spell techs. Much better chance of getting what you want.

    Anyway, was just an idea figured I'd run past folks.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    I like the idea, my inventory often gets clogged with far too many forms I can't use, having them in stackable chests of a specific type would at least reduce the amount of slots needed to store them in inventory. Obviously there's a minor problem of a lottery being involved if selling chests directly to other players, as they have to loot something from a specific loot table after buying it from another player, effectively, when they pop the chest open.

    I'd still say it's much better than all these random drops from mobs that clog inventory very quickly. Far too much stuff has to be deleted. People in a guild could simply haul all the chests with less stack space to guild storage, pop them open, then toss the techs/forms into libraries if people wanted to stock up on specific formulas for their guild.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    the main goal was simply that if you were out hunting you wouldn't end up with 30 different forms/techs cluttering your inventory and that you might likely end up deleting or pawning.
    From the little adventuring that I've done, seems like this would be more worthwhile if applied to hoard. That is what clutters up my inventory when I'm fighting, not forms and techs.
    Chaos: Delite, Delicat, Delectable, Delikit, Delish & Deetara~Blight: DeeDee

    While I do purr over milk, give me a huge mug of flavored coffee, I'll be ecstatic!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    I wasn't too sure on how this would be beneficial either, but after reading all these responses, I'm really liking the idea of having everything in one stack until you can get to a place to store individual techs and/or have time to delete it all.
    Many of my dragons have so much stuff in their inventory, I fear it's just become a permanent part of them. So many individual pieces of junk to go through, I usually just end up logging on another character to play.

    I can see a con in that trying to buy these from other players would turn into a formulatron issue, but for the single adventurer that doesn't go out in a party or buy from others, this is a very nice idea.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Adventuretrons? I fail to see how a few forms in our invetory is a clutter. I Fail to see how this would solve anything? No offense, but this would be alot of coding work for very little practical gain. Not as many stacks of items in your inventory helps me how? I still have to open the boxes. The formula will still be in my inventory at one point or another. I then still need to decide what to do with the formula. This seems like just another unneccesary step.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Maybe if you increased the drop rate, say if forms were a 5% drop, make the chests a 10% drop instead, to offset the "hurt" while trying to farm these things yourself.. well maybe.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    I think there's nothing about this proposal, under its current outline, that really convinces me that this would be a lot BETTER than the current system. It feels like it'd be substituting one nuisance (storage) for another (lots of clicking) while shuffling the lousy part of the current system (RNG) around without meaningfully addressing why players dislike it. It's not really much WORSE, but it's not really much better, either.

    If I may steal a moment to daydream of ridiculous things: say we put in the system you outlined, and then also put in a new vendor. This new vendor would have every single tech/form that could come out of these new chests. (Make it multiple vendors split up by tier or type if you like.) However, said vendor would use those same chests as currency to buy their goods, at a steep trade. Say you want the Tooth and Claw III. You could loot Adventure Technique 3 chests til the cows come home and open them to try to get a copy. But you'd also have the option to go to this vendor and pay him 25 unopened Adventure Technique 3 chests for this one technique. (Or, you know, whatever price judged to be "high enough that you don't buy everything one by one, low enough that coughing up that many loot rolls would be worth it in case of RNG failure.")

    I think this would neatly solve the current (and proposed) system's failure, namely the lack of insurance that your efforts will get you what you want. Random drop systems work well when you can use most of the dozens/hundreds of possible drops. They even work ok when you can still use a bunch of them. It's once you get down to needing a select few that they stop being anything resembling fun-- and I think that's what could use addressing.

    I don't know if this would be technically possible. I don't know whether this would play nice with the devs' idea of How Things Should Go. But the notion of this chest drop system combined with a backup vendor to help smooth out the ravages of RNG appeals to me.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    THIS Thickle!!!

    and all my votes to your suggestion
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    In our ongoing effort to reduce grind and improve the game we'd like to run an idea past you. Currently, when you fight some types of monsters you have a chance to loot Techniques and Formulas. This chance is fairly low because they are treated as rare loot.

    The situation this creates is one in which players have to grind in order to find specific formulas or techs for a tier. Or, they have to beg from other players to grind it for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    the main goal was simply that if you were out hunting you wouldn't end up with 30 different forms/techs cluttering your inventory and that you might likely end up deleting or pawning.
    Erm, all this is is moving the problem from one way of working to another way of working. ppl will just clutter up their inventories when they open the chests. If someone is looking for a specific form/tech, they will open every relevant chest to see if its the one they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thicklesip View Post
    I think there's nothing about this proposal, under its current outline, that really convinces me that this would be a lot BETTER than the current system. It feels like it'd be substituting one nuisance (storage) for another (lots of clicking) while shuffling the lousy part of the current system (RNG) around without meaningfully addressing why players dislike it. It's not really much WORSE, but it's not really much better, either.
    A slight reduction in the RNG but doesn't really address the actual problem. So in this case I agree with Thicklesip's comments.


    This is how I see the issue 'reduce grind and improve the game' when looking at loot

    • Form/Techniques have been restricted to Semi Intelligents and Undead. The amount of semi intelligent mobs is not consistent across all tiers (Tier 1 being the worst).
    • We also have a situation now where the easy to kill semi intelligent is being predominately hunted (Nah'guk ogres/pygmies last night on chaos had about 6 people trying to hunt them for t5 forms/techs)
    • Mobs on New Trismus do not drop any forms/techs (except for the 2 named ones). New players spend the bulk of their intial time in game on NT. They don't leave at lvl 10 adv despite the quest system being geared to push them to kion.
    • Form/Tech drops have been restricted to upper range of each tier. This instantly makes it incredibly difficult for players outside that range to be able to kill these mobs. Can't kill the mob, can't loot forms/techs = frustration. Players do not hunt in groups as there are just not enough of the playerbase pool available to group hunt.
    • Undead mobs are rarely hunted as they are too difficult to kill.

    I don't see the issue as the amount of forms/techs cluttering up inventories, I see the problem as form/tech drops have been restricted too much and therefore very difficult for players to obtain now and the loot vs reward is more loot vs frustration.
    Chasing
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Formulas/Techs and Loot

    Quote Originally Posted by Thicklesip View Post
    If I may steal a moment to daydream of ridiculous things: say we put in the system you outlined, and then also put in a new vendor. This new vendor would have every single tech/form that could come out of these new chests. (Make it multiple vendors split up by tier or type if you like.) However, said vendor would use those same chests as currency to buy their goods, at a steep trade. Say you want the Tooth and Claw III. You could loot Adventure Technique 3 chests til the cows come home and open them to try to get a copy. But you'd also have the option to go to this vendor and pay him 25 unopened Adventure Technique 3 chests for this one technique. (Or, you know, whatever price judged to be "high enough that you don't buy everything one by one, low enough that coughing up that many loot rolls would be worth it in case of RNG failure.")
    I seem to remember a system that was like this being removed from the game... (Lore tokens anyone.... I still have 2000 and a small number of IBMs as well). Going back to a system like that would represent a small to large step backwards in the devs minds. I am not adverse to the idea but I am not sure that it is what is in mind. What I would like to see with this idea is not the removal of the techs and forms from the loot tables but the addition of said "chests"/"books" to the loot tables so that both drop (as other have said). Another thing (if both dropped) would be to have the chests check your scribed forms/techs before giving you your RNG drop. I can only dream.

    And I sign what Chasing has to say as well.
    SoG? Where? :-P

    Alas gone are the days when this was easy to do.

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