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Thread: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    This time around it is our intention to both simplify and standardize plot prices so that the cost of buying a plot is predictable to the average player.

    We aren't prepared right now to share that formula with you, as it is still being tweaked a bit, but in general the price of all plots would be much lower than what it was with the last revamp. This means plots would be cheaper to purchase, which we think is a good thing.

    The price of your plot would depend much more heavily on the size of the plot and the tier of nearby resources than on proximity to portals.

    In addition, we are considering including guild plots in this repricing and wanted to get your feedback before we did so. As you know, right now when you purchase a guild plot, it costs a great deal "up front" to do so, but then the plots within the community are all just 1 silver. Were we to include guild sub-plots in this repriced structure, the cost of the plot would vary based on the size of the plot. All sub-lots in a community would be considered T1 for the purposes of repricing, so they still would remain inexpensive to purchase, just not the 1 silver which they currently are. Master plot prices would also change, but again, most would be lower than they are presently.

    While we have our reasons for doing so, we'd like to get your thoughts and feedback on this proposal. As always, this is at this stage just a proposed project and no promises are being made or implied, and insert all the usual disclaimers about keeping the thread on topic.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    hhmm.. expensive plots has been the only money sink left ingame..
    and the exsisting pricing of guildplots was fine in my eyes- for several reasons.

    On the other hand- it will not ruin or save our economy if you make new prices.

    I am kinda unemotional concerning this issue.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    hhmm.. expensive plots has been the only money sink left ingame..
    and the exsisting pricing of guildplots was fine in my eyes- for several reasons.

    On the other hand- it will not ruin or save our economy if you make new prices.

    I am kinda unemotional concerning this issue.
    I agree with this.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Can't see any reason why not to.

    I don't think there will be a big upsurge in plot purchasing however. All the largest, easy to reach plots (next to resources etc) are already taken [on chaos].

    The repricing will just uplift the cost of already owned plots.

    If you want to incentivise it, create some new plots above 60x60 close to resource fields and/or portals

    Guild master plots are a null point. Again the large guild communities are already owned.
    Chasing
    Chaos Shard
    Scarlet Dawn


  5. #5

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Re-pricing of plots is a good idea as there are very strange discrepancies out there, such as a 138*52 for 1g680s and a 137*51 next to it for 4g and a bit.

    However with the re-pricing, it is my view that people who worked for finding their money, should not loose out in the re-pricing. If by lowering the prices, a compensation for those that paid more (than the new price) could be found then that would be appreciated. Not every player has endless amount of money and is often still in the process of levelling and buying their vault, forms, etc from trainers or other places.

    I fully understand and would agree with looking at resources as a benchmark, but portals should still play a role as there are a lot of plots (especially guild plots) which are on –what I call- plot islands and no resources nearby. However, I believe it is not just the pricing of plots that prevents them being built, but the size of them as well. The 40*50ish (even next to resources) and slightly above plot are all empty and surely it isn`t just the cost of them that would be the problem? Whilst i am not sure what the ideal size is , it would be worth knowing what the community thinks and ideal medium plot size is for people to live and work on.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    The pricing structure seems to be fine for the largest plots, but as Gimthen pointed out, the smaller plots are severely over-priced.

    Most of the players have been in the game for years, and have plenty of money to spend on plots. If they want a plot to build on, money isn't constraining them. The only thing holding them back is finding a plot that they like, and size is the main factor. (And perhaps the real-world cost of an account that enables plot purchasing.)

    The rest of the players are constrained by money. It's clear from the buying patterns that people don't consider the smaller plots to be worth the money. In order to be attractive to newer players, the smaller plots have to be *much* less expensive. If this is your goal for the repricing, I'm all for it!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Quote Originally Posted by Chasing View Post
    Can't see any reason why not to.

    I don't think there will be a big upsurge in plot purchasing however. All the largest, easy to reach plots (next to resources etc) are already taken [on chaos].

    The repricing will just uplift the cost of already owned plots.

    If you want to incentivise it, create some new plots above 60x60 close to resource fields and/or portals

    Guild master plots are a null point. Again the large guild communities are already owned.
    im with him on this. But if your looking for somthing to do then lower the prices i guess I for done dont think its will help or hert.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    While I'm not proposing anything in particular, I feel some observations from my experience could provide some additional points to consider (mostly provided for the players discussing here, rather than directed at Velea).

    As a bit of background, I'm largely to blame for the pricing you see on the shards now. (So, now you know where to send your hate mail. :p) The intent was to create a distribution of plot prices that somewhat mimicked the distribution of player coin -- "a plot for everyone", so to speak.

    To do this, the plot pricing algorithm incorporated the plot size, distance to landing pads and teleport gates, and where the gates went. Gates that went to racial cities imparted a higher value than the ones that went to guild communities, for example.

    In creating a plot distribution that varied in price as much as player coin, that algorithm was mostly successful, but, as the plot ownership on Chaos and Order shows, there's still something wrong. (As a data point, only about 1/4 - 1/3 of the plots on Chaos are owned.) I think this was largely due to some bad assumptions. As such, a bit of a postmortem is in order.

    Bad assumption: a player with a lot of coin will buy an expensive plot. Turns out that a player with a lot of coin will buy whatever plot they want to, leaving those without a lot of coin to choose between super-expensive plots in reasonably connected areas and super-cheap plots way out in nowhere land.

    Bad assumption: Teleporter connectivity is the deciding factor in choosing one plot over another. Not always. Sometimes the aesthetics of the location, plot size, proximity to resources, or proximity to popular adventuring areas take priority. It all depends on the player's preference and those preferences are not predictable for the purpose of pricing a plot.

    Bad assumption: Players will want plots to have plots -- who wouldn't want a plot?! Given the abundance of vacant, cheap plots (about 400 costing less than 700s and more than 1s on Chaos), apparently a lot of people. Regardless of the reason behind deciding not to own a plot (there was a discussion on this... somewhere), broadening the incentives to own a plot requires some, if not more attention than deciding what each plot should cost. The in-game cost of a plot is just a small factor in the overall consideration in plot ownership. (e.g. the opportunity cost of buying and developing one plot over another is considerably higher)

    Bad assumption: Most players have a lot of coin. I can't go into detail, but suffice it to say, my gut feeling (used to tweak the pricing algorithm) and the actual numbers were off by an order or so of magnitude. Sorry for not doing my homework. :p

    Bad assumption: Buying a plot has to be a significant financial impact for everyone. Given a vast spread of coin distribution, current game mechanics, and current expectations, there's no way to apply a fair amount of financial "hurt" to every player when they buy a plot. Some will not notice a difference. Others will spend most of their coin.

    Bad assumption: plot purchases should be a giant coin sink. Buying a plot is a one-time deal, and my initial thought, like many others, was "well, let's make this count then", and take as big a bite out of the player's wallet as reasonably possible. Further thought, however, suggests that a one-time cost when facing a continuous supply of coin makes that one-time cost a pretty lame coin sink. We might be better off with other coin sinks, and instead, look to the plot purchase price as a proof of commitment, rather than tool to moderate the economy.
    You can get anything you want in life -- just make a lot of noise and bite the right people.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    You want plots to be a money sink? Consider taxes. 1% of the plot price per month property tax. 1s per month per silo. 2s per month per shop. 1s per month per tier for a house. 1% of the hire price per month for pawns, vault keepers, consigners. Give the people a reason to get uot there and raise some cash. It works in the real world.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimthen View Post
    However with the re-pricing, it is my view that people who worked for finding their money, should not loose out in the re-pricing. If by lowering the prices, a compensation for those that paid more (than the new price) could be found then that would be appreciated. Not every player has endless amount of money and is often still in the process of levelling and buying their vault, forms, etc from trainers or other places.
    Agreed
    I've spoke about this a few times.
    My biggest problem is this... Given that a price change did indeed go live, i would ultimately get burned harder then anyone else. I have 30+ gold invested in two plots. Any change in prices would be a unjustified and ultimately, a devastating blow to me; and also, be disappointing to those that lost anything at all. This coin has taken real life time to earn!!

    What if I wanted to sell my plot?

    "Purchased 18.2g... Repriced at 4-8g.." I go to sell the plot back to the community and to my surprise, wtf?!?! I just lost a 12+gold?! No thanks! This wont be tolerated at any level. If reprices happen, compensation must take place equal to that of the original pricing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rrolf View Post
    You want lots to be a money sink? Consider taxes. 1% of the plot price per month property tax. 1s per month per silo. 2s per month per shop. 1s per month per tier for a house. 1% of the hire price per month for pawns, vault keepers, consigners. Give the people a reason to get uot there and raise some cash. It works in the real world.
    No Thanks. Sounds cool, but worst idea ever... This wouldnt' go well with most, and absolutely wouldn't go well with me, brings a sour taste to my mouth.
    Last edited by Finkledbody; April 17th, 2012 at 04:18 AM.

    Just a little drunk dwarven bi-ped wreaking havoc in chaos.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Geez. I hope that doesn't happen. A tax of the sort you describe really sucks for occasional players, who can't get enough play in per month to make up for the taxes. That also sucks for anyone using the plot, as they may lose access to it.

    In a way, this tax sounds a bit like hoard decay. Think about how bad that was. :p

    A good money sink will only incur costs during gameplay, reward the player for using it, and of course, leave the player with an 'out' if they can't afford to use the sink.
    You can get anything you want in life -- just make a lot of noise and bite the right people.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Finkle- you want money back??

    I really do not understand your grief about that.
    You had that gold once- you can earn it again- its not that its lost:
    You have 2 wonderful plots for that.

    Who will give you money back in rl, if you invest in a project that proves to be
    not worth a coin?
    Its was your decision and personal risk to do so.
    And in your case it was worth it!

    So I thought you are kidding, when I heard you whining bout the gold.
    You cant be serious, that if there is a plot repricing in the future- say in 6 months-that devs had to think about how to pay gold back to players who bought a plot months ago.
    I still think you are kidding?
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    I'm with LOVWYRM here.

    Edit: not to mention that lowering the prices mite provide an incentive for newcomers to buy plots at lower adventure levels.
    we all know that golds are easy to get if you are 100 and the adventurous type, but at lower levels it's really hard to get money.
    Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwind View Post
    we all know that golds are easy to get if you are 100 and the adventurous type, but at lower levels it's really hard to get money.
    Hence any lowering of prices must be done very carefully. Not everyone is lvl 100 or adventurous.

    look to the plot purchase price as a proof of commitment, rather than tool to moderate the economy.
    I think thats a perfect description of why people start with Plot purchase/building. But whilst I would support any "levelling" of plot prices, causing 'hurt' to players who have committed should be -where ever possible- be prevented.


    So I thought you are kidding, when I heard you whining bout the gold.
    You cant be serious, that if there is a plot repricing in the future- say in 6 months-that devs had to think about how to pay gold back to players who bought a plot months ago.
    If prices would go down, some will go up (thinks especially of 1 plot under 1g which is around 100*100ish). Would it be correct for such people to profit when -probably a majority- others will loose out who worked their socks of to find the large amount of money in the first place and see it now all disspearing?

    Don`t get me wrong, I am not talking about changes less than a gold (even though for me that's a lot of money), but loosing several gold when you don`t have yet one of the larger plots and still hope to upgrade to it would be very painful. After all, most of us start on a small plot and upgrade when we have more money and see a plot free we like, with the ultimate dream of owning a large, beautiful and perfect located plot.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    Finkle- you want money back??

    I really do not understand your grief about that.
    You had that gold once- you can earn it again- its not that its lost:
    You have 2 wonderful plots for that.

    Who will give you money back in rl, if you invest in a project that proves to be
    not worth a coin?
    Its was your decision and personal risk to do so.
    And in your case it was worth it!

    So I thought you are kidding, when I heard you whining bout the gold.
    You cant be serious, that if there is a plot repricing in the future- say in 6 months-that devs had to think about how to pay gold back to players who bought a plot months ago.
    I still think you are kidding?
    I absolutely support price changes! I do believe places like Parsinia should have plot prices at 50s-100s per plot. Move t1 resources closer to the plots, make it easier, quicker to build these simple structures so new toons can get a proper feeling of satisfaction as they dedicate there time to this game.

    However, regardless of my ability to gain back coin isn't the point..

    The fact is, I play this game to have fun.. I played to earn that coin that took time. Real time. Real time I'm not getting back. I used this HARD EARNED COIN to puchase great plots. But I also KNEW I was going to get the loot back when I decided to move. I move from plot to plot constantly; I rebuild plots over and over again coming up with new designs and new ideas. That's what I'm in this game for. Thats what I enjoy it :)

    But If I even took even a 1 gold blow, It would infuriate me to no end.. I am not kidding here. There is no justifed reason to do this to anyone in game.. I'm not talking about just me, but ultimately, I would get hit the hardest. This is not Okay! In any way shape or form and I wont tolerate it.

    But please, I do agree that plot prices do need to be looked into and I truly support making this great feature more available to the masses!

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    Who will give you money back in rl, if you invest in a project that proves to be
    not worth a coin?
    Its was your decision and personal risk to do so.
    And in your case it was worth it!
    Edit: This is not real life, this is a game that I pay a hefty sum to enjoy.. No one should pay to play, then get burned. I don't role-play, I build plots :)
    Last edited by Finkledbody; April 17th, 2012 at 04:14 PM.

    Just a little drunk dwarven bi-ped wreaking havoc in chaos.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    I would definitely suggest consideration for some form of 'legacy' flag on the plot which would allow the owner to resell their plot for what it was originally worth pre-revamp (after which it'll take on its new revamped price). While losing 1g from a slight drop in a plot's cost would be annoying, losing over 20g from the Brandon's Shelf plots would touch just a bit past annoying I think.
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Why again are we talking about this lol. ok realy im sure no matter what you do or if you do nothing someone will be made so what can you do to make the least people made make then cheaper or do nothing as of rite now there isnt a plot open that a lvl 100 anything can come up with the coin in one day to buy. ill assume you know this so the only other reson i can come up with is your trying to make LOW lvl people able to buy them. If this is the case make the plot dirt cheap i mean realy who cares? im sure fink does but there small plot and no ones gonna buy them if there 1g ever. so in ending if you do anything. If thay dont have bread let them eat cake.......

  18. #18

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrolf View Post
    You want plots to be a money sink? Consider taxes. 1% of the plot price per month property tax. 1s per month per silo. 2s per month per shop. 1s per month per tier for a house. 1% of the hire price per month for pawns, vault keepers, consigners. Give the people a reason to get uot there and raise some cash. It works in the real world.

    \
    No taxes! I don't play a game to pay taxes. I get taxed enough in real life, let alone in a game.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrion View Post
    I would definitely suggest consideration for some form of 'legacy' flag on the plot which would allow the owner to resell their plot for what it was originally worth pre-revamp (after which it'll take on its new revamped price). While losing 1g from a slight drop in a plot's cost would be annoying, losing over 20g from the Brandon's Shelf plots would touch just a bit past annoying I think.
    This.

    Some players bought plots back when they first came in game, paying several gold (or several dozen gold) to do so. Like Finkle, anyone who chooses to move in game now (Or who's plot gets reclaimed or whatever) is refunded their original cost to help encourage future plot buying.

    It WOULD be a punishment to such players to have invested 4-5-10 gold into a plot at one point in the past, move, and only get 1-2 gold (or less) back since that is the "current" pricing model.

    Such a loss of expense (not everyone is rich in the game, in fact I argue a vast majority are NOT as supported by the recent post about how plots were priced originally) does NOT encourage future plot buying.

    Not to mention those who lost plots due to account lapses (since you have all of a month before it gets reclaimed) who would return to buy new plots only to find they don't have the gold it takes to buy another plot since their "refund" was half or less of their original purchase price.

    I agree with lowering plot prices as a whole; most people in game are not vastly wealthy.

    But I don't agree with people who have already paid out getting punished on a future refund because they didn't "cash in" before the change went.

    I mean if you do that - then basically everyoen who has a plot now needs to MAKE SURE they get their refund BEFORE the reduction goes in. Wait for the reduction to happen, and then rebuy their plot back for LESS in order to ensure they get dealt with fairly. That's..not a good mechanic?
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

    A few months ago, I was considering buying a plot on Order. I went around looking at all the non-Guild plots, to see if there were good ones that I could afford, having a mid-level character without a ton of money.

    Almost all the owned plots were the very largest ones. Of the exceptions, only a couple were not near resources or right next to a portal. The smallest ones were unowned, except for those right near resources (Nuthala).

    It's pretty clear that people trade up to larger plots as soon as they can, unless there's something special about the plot. It's also clear that there aren't many small plots that otherwise offer something special.

    Ideally, if the plots were properly priced, we'd have people occupying a mix of all the different plots. Instead, the population is concentrated in the larger plots.

    I do not understand why the larger plots need repricing down at all -- there's clearly demand for them. It is only the smaller plots that are overpriced in the current situation. The largest plots are, if anything, under-priced. Note that I am assuming there is actually a population of players other than myself that do not own a plot. At the least, new players don't own plots, and if we can encourage people who try Istaria to stay and settle by making it easier for them to buy and build on a small plot, we should!

    I think any repricing method should leave the bulk of currently owned plots at their current price. It should concentrate on making the unwanted types of plots more attractive, especially the smallest ones near lower-level newb towns. In addition, the devs should consider moving some resource spawns nearer to existing small plots, especially at the lower tiers, in order to make the plots more desirable.

    In looking at this, consider also that plot repricing affects the financial health of the Istaria team: plot ownership is a revenue stream for the company, something that we want to encourage so that the game stays alive and well.

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