Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: Antivirus Annoyances

Hybrid View

  1. #1

    Default Antivirus Annoyances

    Someone who works in the same building I do (but not for the same business as I) asked me to look at her son's laptop. She gave me this story about how he was watching a youtube video and IE (yeah I knew, let's all say it simultaneously: EEEEW) locked up on him and now he can't get on the internet at all.

    So I'm thinking "eh... okaaaay." I tell her "Sure, I'll take a look at it, see what I can do"

    Well, I get home, and I look at the laptop before hooking it up (I knew ahead of time it has a dead battery and requires the AC adapter) and first thing I see, is Windows Vista stickers (everyone simultaneously: DOUBLE EEEW).

    Well, I plug the thing in and go "meh this is gonna suck I bet" and I boot it up.

    First thing I notice, a completely black desktop with nothing but Recycle Bin showing. Um.... odd.

    I open the start menu, it is 100% empty.

    .........!?

    So I go to the Find box and type "explore" and then I get Windows Explorer that way, and... C: is empty. So I find Control Panel the same way, and show hidden files and folders.

    Every Single Thing on the Freaking Computer Is Hidden.

    I've NEVER seen anyone do this before. Why would you hide every freaking thing on the computer?

    I look through some of his folders, no adult material (seriously, the p-word is censored? Oi) or anything like that, dunno why he'd hide everything on the computer... this just baffles me.

    Okay, back to work. I notice a bunch of crap in the systray running and the computer is running quite sluggish so I do a ctrl+alt+del and ask it to run Task Manager. Task Manager pops up for a second or two and then disappears.

    ...um, okay.

    Let's try that again.

    BSOD. a stop x8E.

    Errrr.

    So I boot up in safe mode, go into msconfig... I see no less than 8 fishy programs so I uncheck everything I don't know what it is, and reboot the computer.

    Installed Firefox and then AVG Antivirus (just wanted an easy to get free one for now).

    Now, the meat of the rant: The first thing the stupid Antivirus wants to scan is a folder called "500,000 games"

    And it runs for 30+ minutes and I'm rolling my eyes going "uh, why not check the system folders FIRST!?" noooo it checks the least likely places to actually have viruses instead of trying to clean out the system folders first.

    And as I type this, it FINALLY got done with that stupid 500k games folder and... oh wow, 15 trojans/registry keys already... lol.

    That's what happens when you don't use an Antivirus.

    Hopefully I can clean this all out without doing a Recovery... I'll have to preach to her the value of Antivirus and Mozilla Firefox when I give her computer back.

    I'm worried about her HDD though. She had a program called SMART HDD which claims that there are problems with the HDD itself... but yet windows is booting fine other than that STOP error which I think could have been a virus. We'll see what happens once I get done with AVG and Malwarebytes.

    Anyways, I'm just bored and rambling on.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Every Single Thing on the Freaking Computer Is Hidden.
    And this was the part where I burst out laughing.

    I think you might be happier NOT knowing what the heck was going on to get the computer into such a state, jeez.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Quote Originally Posted by Thicklesip View Post
    And this was the part where I burst out laughing.

    I think you might be happier NOT knowing what the heck was going on to get the computer into such a state, jeez.
    Either a virus did that, or her son was really freaking paranoid. But then, considering the lack of any offensive or adult material I could see, I'm going to have to assume the latter. Esp since the computer had no Antivirus.

    UPDATE:

    Oooooh, yup, my instinct was right. That SMART HDD program was a fake, a trojan installer. Probably tells you a bunch of BS that stuff is bad and you "need" their full version to fix everything. *rolls eyes*

    I knew the HDD wasn't going bad when I completed a full virus scan and didn't get any STOP errors or anything else.

    If the HDD was REALLY going south, surely I would have gotten a STOP error having to do with the NTFS system or something after a full computer virus scan.

    Update2: Eew, a rootkit... lol this gets better and better.... Oi. Well, its a challenge! never had to try and remove one of these before.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Just do like I tend to do with every infected computer I ever come across. Copy the personal folder(s) to an external HDD and proceed to do a low lvl format of the entire disk.. then repartition and reinstall windows from scratch. It might not be the most friendly way to clean of crap, but it is quite effective.
    Elated that HZ is no longer in the hands of the Infidels.

    Now.. I may have to split my time between 2 games... CS:S and HZ...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    That's what happens when you don't use an Antivirus.
    That's what happens when you make poor and/or uninformed decisions on what you download, install, and run on your computer. Neither your antivirus nor your browser will stand much of a chance from stopping a virus caused by you downloading and running an exe (though the antivirus may catch on at some point afterwards). Which sort of leads me to the subject on browsers that I really don't agree with..

    The whole browser war with telling people which one they should use is completely detrimental to a user's -actual- safety, in my opinion. When most people say "IE sucks, Firefox is -much- safer!" they usually say it because that's what other people are saying, they don't actually have any understanding over exactly why it might be safer so it very well could be false or to nowhere near the extent that they're hyping it. The people that listen to this advice will likely not research it and simply assume the browser will keep them safe and thus relinquish responsibilty to their browser (and antivirus), unaware that their computer's security starts with them being able to make well informed decisions over what links they click or what they download. A great antivirus, browser, and firewall isn't going to do much to stop a password phishing scam, for example.
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

  6. #6

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    In latest browser security tests IE9 scores highest. Also it's a good thing that it is automatically updated with system updates. Of course firefox has a good autoupdate now, too.
    That said: The browser security tests don't say sooo much. In fact they clearly state that all the browsers are quite similar, when it comes to security. The browser you are using should be chosen from personal preferences.

    System updates and updates of your browser are critical, though. It's not that system updates makes your system secure in any case. But if you don't do system and browser updates ASAP you are vulnerable and everyone knows how to use that vulnerability to really hurt you.

    Of course Akrion is 100% right, that safety is an user issue and can only be helped by software, never solved.
    I wanna be ancient. Why is there no ARoP for Saris?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrion View Post
    That's what happens when you make poor and/or uninformed decisions on what you download, install, and run on your computer. Neither your antivirus nor your browser will stand much of a chance from stopping a virus caused by you downloading and running an exe (though the antivirus may catch on at some point afterwards).
    Dunno what antivirus you've been using, but mine (AVG) alerts me if something has a virus as soon as I download it (but before I run it).

    Very first thing it does is it scans the whole file before I can even run it. If there was a virus/trojan/malware/adware in that, it'd warn me before I even have a chance to execute the file.

    Not to mention, downloading a file is not the only way you can get viruses -- scripts on webpages are another popular source of infections. Even popular/trusted sites get hacked now-and-then; there was a couple days where a popular gaming forum site (ZAM.com) was hacked into, and scripts were loaded on their webpages to try and steal FFXI and WoW accounts from the users that frequented there. The virus was quickly discovered and gotten rid of in a few hours, and they had multiple "Seriously guys, get Firefox and AdBlock/NoScript, you'll be a lot safer against these kinds of attacks".

    Me? I didn't get hit with the virus because my AdBlock/NoScript blocked it.

    This leads me to....

    The whole browser war with telling people which one they should use is completely detrimental to a user's -actual- safety, in my opinion. When most people say "IE sucks, Firefox is -much- safer!" they usually say it because that's what other people are saying, they don't actually have any understanding over exactly why it might be safer so it very well could be false or to nowhere near the extent that they're hyping it. The people that listen to this advice will likely not research it and simply assume the browser will keep them safe and thus relinquish responsibilty to their browser (and antivirus), unaware that their computer's security starts with them being able to make well informed decisions over what links they click or what they download. A great antivirus, browser, and firewall isn't going to do much to stop a password phishing scam, for example.
    Some of the reasons why people love Firefox...

    1). AdBlock/NoScript: These have got to be two of the most powerful tools for keeping you safe online. Last I checked (IE7-8), IE doesn't have anything like this. Or at least, I've never seen it. *shrug* But then I stopped using IE a long time ago.

    2). Its installers/updaters are a lot faster/more stable. I remember last time my computer wanted to auto-install IE9. It took 5x longer for IE9 to download and install than installing Firefox straight out-of-the-box from scratch. Downloading and installing Firefox takes ~3min even on an older laptop. Downloading and installing IE9 takes much longer than that.

    3). Last I checked (IE7-8), IE uses up a lot more system resources than Firefox.

    And yes, when I tell people about IE vs Firefox, I tend to list these reasons. I also make it clear that they have to keep IE on their computer, as Windowsupdate.com requires it for some stupid reason. There are a few other websites that -require- it, but that's the only essential one I've ever come across.

    In latest browser security tests IE9 scores highest. Also it's a good thing that it is automatically updated with system updates. Of course firefox has a good autoupdate now, too.
    Is that with or without AdBlock/NoScript? Does IE allow plugins like that now too and/or have a similar function? If the answer is no, then IE isn't anywhere near Firefox in terms of security.

    Of course Akrion is 100% right, that safety is an user issue and can only be helped by software, never solved.
    Considering that this computer is meant for a teenage kid, having an antivirus and a browser set up properly by someone more knowledgeable means that the kid is less likely to come across a virus, especially when he downloads something and a big red "DON'T DO THIS" comes up on the screen as soon as he downloads it.

    Now, obviously he could choose to ignore the AV warnings, but surely after this little episode, he will learn first-hand about viruses and stuff. I'll talk to his mother and tell her what happened to the computer (nasty virus infection, etc, etc) and politely tell her that she should teach her son about not downloading random crap from the internet.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Now, obviously he could choose to ignore the AV warnings, but surely after this little episode....
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    HAHAHAHAHAHA
    hahahahahahaha
    hoooo....
    Your optimism is enviable!

    More seriously, if they CAN learn, this is the point where mom and kid probably will. But do not underestimate the number of people out there who maintain a perpetual state of when confronted with computers! It's not always who you think it is.

    I do say that if you give them a lecture on the importance of safe browsing habits, you're probably best served by discussing both technical recommendations (your love of Firefox+AdBlock+NoScript is not misplaced!) and smart habits. Because when you cross the street it's safer to use the crosswalk... but it's still on you to look both ways and make sure there's no oncoming traffic before you cross.

    AND: it was very nice of you to agree to play freebie tech support for these people! And I for one have been entertained reading about it. My most interesting computer troubles are easily fixed and not very interesting, so I have to live vicariously if I want to experience computer meltdowns.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    I'd say to be careful about NoScript... we as old farts might not mind some websites being crippled by removing scripts... but if this boy is anything like the boys I know, then the moment his browser installation will even remotely touch facebook or youtube or whatever new fancy stuff is emerging, NoScript is gone down the gutter, and most probably all the other "security stuff" with it...

    That's the biggest issue about security: If it is so "secure", that using it the secure way makes no sense to the user, they will find a way to disable all the security things you thought of and go completely unsecured. Better be a bit lax in the first place and keep the users happy.
    I wanna be ancient. Why is there no ARoP for Saris?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Dunno what antivirus you've been using, but mine (AVG) alerts me if something has a virus as soon as I download it (but before I run it).

    Very first thing it does is it scans the whole file before I can even run it. If there was a virus/trojan/malware/adware in that, it'd warn me before I even have a chance to execute the file.
    It will only really be capable of alerting you by either A) Already knowing about the virus and finding a match of the source code, it's "signiture", within the exe to a signiture of the known virus it has stored in its database (it can't really determine what the code does without it already being known). Or B) watching the exe for suspicious activity while it runs, which is what can cause false results.

    If the virus is either new, not well known, or well encrypted (thus altering its signiture) your antivirus will most likely fail to catch the virus before you execute the file, meaning that it will move onto B and hopefully catch the virus before it manages to dig its roots in. Unless the virus is blatantly obvious it will probably manage to do something before the antivirus steps in.

    Don't assume your antivirus can catch every virus before you run it, because it most definitely can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Not to mention, downloading a file is not the only way you can get viruses -- scripts on webpages are another popular source of infections. Even popular/trusted sites get hacked now-and-then; there was a couple days where a popular gaming forum site (ZAM.com) was hacked into, and scripts were loaded on their webpages to try and steal FFXI and WoW accounts from the users that frequented there. The virus was quickly discovered and gotten rid of in a few hours, and they had multiple "Seriously guys, get Firefox and AdBlock/NoScript, you'll be a lot safer against these kinds of attacks".

    Me? I didn't get hit with the virus because my AdBlock/NoScript blocked it.
    Or Google Chrome with its sandboxing features that Firefox, at least as of ~6 months ago, doesn't have. Every time I hear about Firefox and its security the only thing I usually hear about it is NoScript which says to me that either Firefox is only a secure browser because of 1 plugin or that, again, almost nobody truly understands why Firefox might or might not be more secure than other browsers and are just repeating what they've heard elsewhere. Noscript won't do much to prevent clickjacking, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    This leads me to....

    Some of the reasons why people love Firefox...

    1). AdBlock/NoScript: These have got to be two of the most powerful tools for keeping you safe online. Last I checked (IE7-8), IE doesn't have anything like this. Or at least, I've never seen it. *shrug* But then I stopped using IE a long time ago.
    I'd argue that Chrome's sandboxing is more meaningfully powerful than Firefox's Noscript.

    One quick and simple example of why Firefox and Chrome can seem generally more secure than IE is that Microsoft is just a much bigger, juicier target for hackers. "I hacked through a few hundred Chrome browsers" doesn't quite have the same impact as "I hacked through ten thousand IE browsers". So while Firefox and Chrome are most likely statistically more secure than IE, it might not as much be from better programming than one might think. Unless you could look through the source code of the browsers, the only way you could truly tell is from what might happen if Firefox or Chrome became the default browser for Windows.

    Another example related to the previous would be that most users of Windows use IE (as it's the default browser), and like your coworkers son, most users don't often take the security measures that they should, thus further skewing statistics against what IE's true security might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    2). Its installers/updaters are a lot faster/more stable. I remember last time my computer wanted to auto-install IE9. It took 5x longer for IE9 to download and install than installing Firefox straight out-of-the-box from scratch. Downloading and installing Firefox takes ~3min even on an older laptop. Downloading and installing IE9 takes much longer than that.
    I don't have much to really say for or against this, other than that it seems based from personal experiences and opinion and that any factual checking of whether or not that's actually true is nonexistant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    3). Last I checked (IE7-8), IE uses up a lot more system resources than Firefox.
    And Opera uses far less than IE, Firefox and Chrome. System resource usage just doesn't seem that significant for people, which makes it sound more like a pro slapped onto *insert Browser here* to make it look better than the others. x3 With my own experience, Raptress uses Firefox and I use IE9, and I'd say they both use up about the same.

    On the note of resource usage, I find it amusing that a lot of people seem to think that something is better simply because it uses fewer resources without ever stopping to think about what it is those extra resources might be getting used for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    And yes, when I tell people about IE vs Firefox, I tend to list these reasons. I also make it clear that they have to keep IE on their computer, as Windowsupdate.com requires it for some stupid reason. There are a few other websites that -require- it, but that's the only essential one I've ever come across.
    Every browser has websites and/or web related functions that don't work or that another browser handles better. x3 It's not very specific to IE or Firefox.
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrion View Post
    With my own experience, Raptress uses Firefox and I use IE9, and I'd say they both use up about the same.
    In my experience, IE and FF consumed about the same amount of system resources. The main reason I had FF was NoScript, but not because of safety really. It was more just for blocking Flash-based ads that would slow the system to a crawl. Now that I have a faster computer (and now that FF has done a few things with the browser I'm not fond of), I just haven't bothered installing FF again.

    Honestly, I think it's a little unfair to say that FF is safer and then list an addon as the reason. NoScript is a bit of a pain to work around sometimes too, so if it's installed on that kid's computer, I'd expect the "allow scripts globally" button getting clicked almost immediately. Which...leaves you back at square one.

    Aside from that, this Smart HDD program definitely sounds like something the user was tricked into downloading themselves. Probably there was some kind of scary ad showing false threats that fooled them. I doubt anything about browser security would have stopped the user from downloading that malware.

    FF may have been a legitimately better browser years ago when it came out, sure, but I think that the playing field has probably changed by now. Browser choice these days is more an area of preference, in my opinion.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  12. #12

    Default Re: Antivirus Annoyances

    Really - all of htis goes back to the intelligence of the user.

    Your browser can't stop you, the AV won't stop it, spyware/malaway detectors won't stop it all.

    Its about what YOU do as the user.

    I've used nothing but IE for 20 yeras and I've had less than 3 viruses in those 20 years. The last one I had was about 8 years ago and it wasn't a virus, it was malaware. And NOTHING I had stopped it - not AVG or spybot or whatever.

    I actually didn't do it - my husband was an idiot and clicked on a poker website to learn how to play poker for a game he was going to. Malaware on the computer, nothing could remove it I had to reformat the whole frickin thing. Needless to say I chewed him out and he knows not to touch my system. =D

    And the overall point being - it had nothign to do with any damage-preventers on my computer. It had to do with the person clicking the mouse.

    And *that* is what that kid and his mom needs to know. Education. I don't click on ANYTHING ANYWHERE that isn't a trusted site. And 90% of sites aren't trusted. I NEVER click on ads or anythign else on ANY site ANYWHERE.

    But IE? IE is not at fault. Nothing is better than anythign else if the user is ignorant on what they are clicking.

    Does it HELP? OH of course. Get them the AV and spy/malaware checks (the good ones lol) of course. But it won't stop it from happening again if they continue to not educate themselves on what they are doing.
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •