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Thread: Talk to the Team: Cleric

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Cleric

    We've been getting lots of feedback and suggestions regarding the early game and so we've been taking a look at various aspects of it. One thing we were looking at was the early levels of Cleric and we found that Magic Crush seemed odd, Defend Other was pointless, and Protectorate may also be relatively useless. So, we wanted to run some ideas past everyone:


    • Turn Magic Crush into an actual ranged attack ability. A Cleric Power Shot that is masterable.
    • Turn Defend Other into Improved Defense. This would be a self or friendly target ability that would give you a buff that would boost your armor (reducing incoming damage) with a moderate duration.
    • Change Protectorate into an Ablative Damage Mitigation ability (it would absorb damage and would expire after a number of hits).


    Thoughts, comments. Any other ideas, feedback, suggestions regarding Cleric?
    Last edited by AmonGwareth; April 17th, 2013 at 01:37 PM. Reason: changed "melee" to "ranged" in Magic Crush line
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    The two defensive skill changes sound awesome.

    Not sure what exactly the difference with Magic Crush actually is, though.

    Also, a couple suggestions:

    Cleric... I don't know. Cleric and Healer look like they fill very similar roles. They are both packed with healing spells to the max, they both do ridiculously low DPS on their own (which means you're pretty much required to level 1-2 other schools if you're doing Cleric first). Sadly, Cleric is 1 of 2 Schools (right next to Healer) that gives decent Augmentation for you to get access to those important Stat Buffs, so it is Highly attractive to new players starting out.

    But its incredibly low DPS requires you to do at least one other school just to actually gain levels with it.

    My question is this:

    Do we really need two "Lots o' Heal, Nil DPS" schools?

    Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to give Cleric a DPS boost or two, and perhaps to balance it, maybe slightly reduce healing or survivability or something, I don't know. That way it wouldn't be such a pain to level Cleric (since new players are highly advised to do so due to it being one of the few Augmentation schools).

    Just seems kinda funny to have two schools that do nearly the same thing.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    The two defensive skill changes sound awesome.

    Not sure what exactly the difference with Magic Crush actually is, though.
    It makes a melee ability into a ranged or something. Its odd. Figured we'd just change it into a ranged (which btw I had a typo in that line, I put melee when I meant ranged).

    Also, a couple suggestions:

    Cleric... I don't know. Cleric and Healer look like they fill very similar roles. They are both packed with healing spells to the max, they both do ridiculously low DPS on their own (which means you're pretty much required to level 1-2 other schools if you're doing Cleric first). Sadly, Cleric is 1 of 2 Schools (right next to Healer) that gives decent Augmentation for you to get access to those important Stat Buffs, so it is Highly attractive to new players starting out.

    But its incredibly low DPS requires you to do at least one other school just to actually gain levels with it.

    My question is this:

    Do we really need two "Lots o' Heal, Nil DPS" schools?

    Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to give Cleric a DPS boost or two, and perhaps to balance it, maybe slightly reduce healing or survivability or something, I don't know. That way it wouldn't be such a pain to level Cleric (since new players are highly advised to do so due to it being one of the few Augmentation schools).

    Just seems kinda funny to have two schools that do nearly the same thing.
    They aren't the same though. Cleric is meant as a basic fighter/healer. You are introduced to healing but you still get some combat capabilities. Healer, however, is the choice you make if you are a serious about healing, at the expense of some combat capabilities.

    Thanks for replying! Keep 'em coming.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    I really love this topic cause the first class my ped was actually play was a Cleric, so let's see :)


    Magic Crush, tbh i'd leave this untouched. To me it seems it is working as intended and I used it a lot since it is the native's Cleric ranged attack. I used it to pull with, followed by a Dispirit.
    It is a melee attack with added range. As a melee attack it is based on 1hc skill (of which Clerics do get 9 skill points per level) and it takes weapon stats into consideration.
    If you turn it into a ranged attack on what skill it would be based and what stats would affect it?
    I'd really leave it as it is, but if there is room for improvement I would lower the recycle to 15s

    Defend Other is a skill that is shared with Knoc, Paladin, Spearman, Warrior and Healer. It is weaker in effect than Protectorate but it lasts longer. It gives 30% chance to intercept attacks for target with 15 minutes duration while Protectorate gives 85% for 30s only. I'd also say that both of them should stay as it is.
    Honestly I see no reason to turn it into Improved Defense. Clerics already have Gleaming Shield that does exactly the same effect - self casted AoE armor buff.
    What should really need to be done is to make Gleaming Shield to stack with dragon's True Grit. As it is now, Gleaming Shield is useless cause in a group everyone will have True Grit on them. It could also be improved by having it on better timers like 5 minutes recycle with 3-4 minutes duration or 10 minutes recycle with 8 minutes duration or 20 minutes recycle with 15 minutes duration.

    an Ablative Damage Mitigation ability would be really nice to have. It would be lovely to have it available to friends too as long it stacks with Druid/Ranger CoT or with Dragons Spiked Scales. Else self casted only would be great as well to help the cleric fulfill his destiny, Which is heal his friends and be the Last Man Standing in a fight.

    Add a Resurrect ability, similar to the casted Res V, with a recycle of 30s. It would help the Cleric to keep his group in a fighting condition especially when he's the only healer for the group.
    It could be non masterable, but available since lower levels.
    Last edited by Northwind; April 17th, 2013 at 02:49 PM.
    Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
    Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN

  5. #5

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwind View Post
    I really love this topic cause the first class my ped was actually play was a Cleric, so let's see :)


    Magic Crush, tbh i'd leave this untouched. To me it seems it is working as intended and I used it a lot since it is the native's Cleric ranged attack. I used it to pull with, followed by a Dispirit.
    It is a melee attack with added range. As a melee attack it is based on 1hc skill (of which Clerics do get 9 skill points per level) and it takes weapon stats into consideration.
    If you turn it into a ranged attack on what skill it would be based and what stats would affect it?
    I'd really leave it as it is, but if there is room for improvement I would lower the recycle to 15s

    Defend Other is a skill that is shared with Knoc, Paladin, Spearman, Warrior and Healer. It is weaker in effect than Protectorate but it lasts longer. It gives 30% chance to intercept attacks for target with 15 minutes duration while Protectorate gives 85% for 30s only. I'd also say that both of them should stay as it is.
    Honestly I see no reason to turn it into Improved Defense. Clerics already have Gleaming Shield that does exactly the same effect - self casted AoE armor buff.
    What should really need to be done is to make Gleaming Shield to stack with dragon's True Grit. As it is now, Gleaming Shield is useless cause in a group everyone will have True Grit on them. It could also be improved by having it on better timers like 5 minutes recycle with 3-4 minutes duration or 10 minutes recycle with 8 minutes duration or 20 minutes recycle with 15 minutes duration.

    an Ablative Damage Mitigation ability would be really nice to have. It would be lovely to have it available to friends too as long it stacks with Druid/Ranger CoT or with Dragons Spiked Scales. Else self casted only would be great as well to help the cleric fulfill his destiny, Which is heal his friends and be the Last Man Standing in a fight.

    Add a Resurrect ability, similar to the casted Res V, with a recycle of 30s. It would help the Cleric to keep his group in a fighting condition especially when he's the only healer for the group.
    It could be non masterable, but available since lower levels.
    Good points all the way around, especially in regards to the Defend Other that is also given to other schools. Care needs to be taken when modifying it to see how this change affects the other schools that also get it, there may be unintended consequences. I've played with clerics before who used these abilities and they were useful.

    Magic Crush - increase the damage it does, and maybe give it an improved chance to hit, lower the recycle. Perhaps give it a small aoe effect as well? That would make it interesting and something we might actually use :) Put on the pony list some new graphics effect for it, a big spell effect that crashes straight down onto the target.

    Definitely agree about the Gleaming Shield stacking with True Grit or other armor buffs. The lack of things being stackable is a major detriment to many abilities, food effects, spell effects. There's waay too many conflicts. Strength buffs from chocolate spider should stack with Enhance Strength, Promote Vitality, etc. Same thing for True Grit and both Gleaming Shield, and Concentrated Blood (Bloodmage ability). All Food should stack with All Spells should stack with All abilities (But a stronger food effect could overwrite a weaker food effect, a stronger spell effect could overwrite a weaker spell effect, but all of those should not conflict with any ability effects. And tech effects on spells need to be separated out as well(see blight spell suggestions)). They need to be in separate "cans". This alone will fix Gleaming Shield imho.

    Not sure about a resurrect ability, there's already a line of spells for this, and it's one of the things the separates Healer from Cleric. Only part of your suggestion I'm not on board with.

    I'm glad the dev's are taking a look at various schools, trying to find ways to improve them. (Fix Shaman's blight spells! :) )

  6. #6

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Note that this "Gleaming Shield" ability you're talking about isn't something clerics get until level 30.

    Not exactly the "early levels", folks. So please try to keep your suggestions on topic. We can look at the school overall another time, perhaps, but for now we're focused on the first 10 levels, give or take.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Erm, sorry - mea culpa. Due to understandable excitement, I somehow missed the "early levels" from the opening post.

    Then my suggestions are:
    Magic Crush should stay as it is, but it's recycle timer improved to 15s. This way the Cleric would get a slight bonus to its very low DPS.
    Defend Other and Protectorate, while totally useless for the solo Cleric, are quite valuable for the grouped Cleric. As a lowbie paper dressed caster, I would surely love to group with a Cleric that can protect me with Protectorate more than with any other class.
    Adding an Ablative Damage Mitigation ability would be great.
    Add a short to medium duration root ability as an escape measure in case sh.t hits the fan and the lowbie Cleric need a quick way out?
    Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
    Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN

  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Could be that both abilities (Defend Other and Protectorate) should be moved to a later level and the gaps filled with something else that is useful to a low level player solo'ing. Afterall, you get 8 direct use abilities by level 10 and 3 of them (Defend Other, Counterspell Other, and Protectorate) (37.5% of your total direct use abilities) are useful only in grouped situations.

    Compare that to the other three base schools:
    Warrior: 6 abilities (only 1 of which is used primarily in a group, 16.7%)
    Mage: 9 abilities (1 used in a group, 11.1%)
    Scout: 5 abilities not counting Sense Friends/Enemies (0 used in a group)
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    I see your point, but none of the classes mentioned are actually support classes like the cleric is.
    They are designed to deliver the damage so it is normal that their abilities are not really group oriented.
    Maybe that's why the Cleric is the only class that get Defend Other at lvl 3 while the rest gets it at lvl 8.
    That's how I see the cleric, could be wrong tho.

    How about Moving Defend Other to lvl 11? - Just for Cleric, rest of the classes still get it at 8.
    Then move Protectorate at lvl 3 and give access to Cleric to Power Strike at lvl 7
    That and reducing Magic Crush recycle to 15s will certainly improve clerics ability to solo

    Edit: More over, it is not really needed to give Clerics access to Power Strike up to X. You can stop at Power Strike V or even lower.
    Last edited by Northwind; April 17th, 2013 at 06:29 PM.
    Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
    Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    I don't think cleric needs resurrect ability either, since they can use the normal spell resurrect that already has a 30 second timer. but I do still see issues with heal timers. even with the new numbers listed, they aren't as they should be.

    A healer should never run out of heals during a fight. I know this is not "every other game out there", but most have only 2 -15 second timers for lower end heals. then the things like heals that also add extra health for limited amounts of time have longer timers. some things up to 2 minutes. how about adding heal over time heals to the list. so when you are trying to heal up to 9 ppl or so, you aren't completely out of heals. though I am not referring to something like 30 points every 10 seconds for 30 seconds. things like those are pointless and mostly useless in my opinion. but something like raising group heals 60% of casters health to all party members.

    a spell that heals xx amount instant and xx% overtime after for 10 seconds or so.

    a heal that restores say up to 1500 HP and raises the targets health by 20% for 15 seconds. toss in a 4% chance to crit heal in the process.

    maybe add a divine shield that absorbs 80% incoming damage for 20 seconds.
    a lot of these can be set to gain the skills at certain lvls only. restricted to Healer class ( not Masterable )

    how about maybe adding a divine strike attack spell (repeater)
    and a silence spell, for stopping mobs from casting (yes, I've mentioned this before, but see no feedback on it)

    not to sound rude at all here, but a healer in this game actually sucks, compared to most. I have never seen a game, except this one, where a healer can actually run out of usable heals while healing a party. leaving some ppl to die, cause there's nothing you can do. unless there's a 2nd healer in the group, or a supporting class. when fighting this like Reklar or the queen, you shouldn't need 2 healers. though that's not to say we haven't done it. as with a good group, most have some other type of heal they can use on themselves. but a healer running totally out of heals?

    Yes, we do have some good healers that know how and when to limit what they use. But not all can work this way
    just some quick thoughts
    Last edited by Malicore; April 17th, 2013 at 07:48 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    [QUOTE=Dhalin;289399]
    Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to give Cleric a DPS boost or two, and perhaps to balance it, maybe slightly reduce healing or survivability or something, I don't know. That way it wouldn't be such a pain to level Cleric (since new players are highly advised to do so due to it being one of the few Augmentation schools).
    TheRock- Please don't remove anything cleric has now. I think cleric is a great class and I dearly enjoy how I can use the skills of that class. If you are going to do anything with cleric please only improve and not take away just to balance. If you don't know about cleric or healer then please don't suggest a balance. Some suggestions here sound good. Some of us have spent years learning cleric and don't want to lose any abilities we have grown accustomed to. Thank you

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    “Cleric is meant as a basic fighter/healer”

    A Cleric’s skills and stats support this notion, but their abilities seem lacking in the ‘fighter’ category. I don’t think they need any boosting in the healing direction as they already have access to all the healing spells and relatively high focus. (If you’re hoping to keep an entire group alive during an Epic hunt, I think you might just have your expectations set way too high. I don’t believe a single healer should be capable of doing so, but that’s just my opinion.) It does seem odd they don’t get any Heal-over-time ability though, since Druid, Ranger, Guardian and Healer all get some HoT ability.

    Magic Crush could certainly do with beefing up. I’m not sure how making it a ranged ability would make any difference, though. If we’re just focusing on the lower levels, if I may suggest, swapping Evasive Style for Power Style or Melee Flurry. Smash could certainly also do with a bump. An argument could be made to swap Smash for Stone Hammer, or simply include Stone Hammer like Guardian.

    Employ Shield could certainly do with a looksee. +20 block on self for 1min with a 5min recycle seems completely useless. I’m of the opinion anything with a 5 minute timer should be a great ability, one providing something significant… +20 block for 1min on self doesn’t seem to fit that description at all.

    If I may venture outside of those first 20 levels for moment, Cleric could really help do with a higher MultiStrike. I think it only gets MultiStrike 1 (lvl 28), correct me if I am wrong. So perhaps MultiStrike 2 could be slipped in somewhere between 50 and 60? Or maybe give Cleric Wrack (also from Guardian), since you don’t get Critical Strike of any kind.

    Just my 2 cents ;)
    Happy huntings, see yas in Istaria :)
    --- iuvenilis --- [Officer of The Alliance]
    Demonslaying since July 2004

  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    A Cleric’s skills and stats support this notion, but their abilities seem lacking in the ‘fighter’ category.
    This was basically the point I was trying to make, in much fewer words.

    Great Healer, but the DPS output... is very lacking. You are pretty much forced to level another school (Spiritist, Druid, etc) for offensive magic just so you can do some actual DPS.

    Being the best armored tank in the world isn't going to win you any fights if it takes you forever to kill something.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    sorry bout that. I, for some reason, thought I was in talk to the team: healers

  15. #15

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by hallucin8 View Post
    ...Employ Shield could certainly do with a looksee. +20 block on self for 1min with a 5min recycle seems completely useless. I’m of the opinion anything with a 5 minute timer should be a great ability, one providing something significant… +20 block for 1min on self doesn’t seem to fit that description at all....
    Perhaps Employ Shield could be changed to be a % increase in block ability, so that it scales up as the player levels? Or add higher versions like Employ Shield II, III, IV, etc that give additional block, so that some lower versions can be mastered but not the higher ones?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post

    • Turn Magic Crush into an actual ranged attack ability. A Cleric Power Shot that is masterable.


    What if it were to do life damage as well? I hope that might be a welcome change.
    --- iuvenilis --- [Officer of The Alliance]
    Demonslaying since July 2004

  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Perhaps Employ Shield could be changed to be a % increase in block ability, so that it scales up as the player levels? Or add higher versions like Employ Shield II, III, IV, etc that give additional block, so that some lower versions can be mastered but not the higher ones?
    This is an issue with all of the style/defensive buff abilities, particularly against T6 enemies. Getting an additional +100 armor, or +60 to block mean about nothing when you're already at 1800+ armor and enemies are hitting for hundreds of damage a swing. Changing all of them to percentages would be a nice boon and would scale well as you level.
    Ssilmath Torshak, Paladin of the Lost, Shaman of the Damned, Master Armorsmith

    My other "crack would be cheaper" hobby
    http://ssilmath.deviantart.com/

  18. #18

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    In an effort to improve the game for Healers and Clerics, the following changes have been made:

    • Lowered the recycle rate of Mystic Blaze to 30 seconds from 60. Added an Improved Mystic Blaze spell.
    • Added a full range of "Spell: Life Range" techniques to the loot tables.

    • Changes to Healer abilities:
    • Lowered Superior Resurrect recycle to 5 minutes (down from 15).
    • Raised the recycle on Resurrect to 1 minute (from 30 seconds).
    Clerics kinda get the short end of the stick here and limiting their resurrect potential is not exactly an improvement

    OK, the Resurrect spell recycle got upped from 30s to 60s. It should be ok for general mystic classes, but is far from ok for the healing classes.
    Healers have access to superior resurrect on 5 minutes cooldown, but Clerics? They don't get a ress ability and have to rely on a 60s recycle resurrect spell.

    Resurrect spell should get back to 30s recycle or Clerics (maybe healers too) should get a common resurrect ability as a compensation - if similar to Resurrect V is too much to ask, then Resurrect IV or even III on 30s recycle should be better than nothing
    Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
    Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN

  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    Speaking as a new player (rather than an existing player starting a new character), most of us aren't going to be grouping with anyone; we don't know a soul, and there's seldom anyone of our level in-game at any rate. While I haven't created a biped character yet, just from the descriptions I'd not see the use of anything geared towards my being in a group of other players, particularly at the low levels we're talking about here. In those first 10 levels or so, when the truly new player really has NO idea of what's going on, just staying alive is the prime focus :-)

  20. #20

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Cleric

    My first thought about Magic Crush was, why is Mystic Blaze not an ability for pulling and the castable spell itself a repeater?

    As for Defend Other and Protectorate, I never found them useful as cleric. I much prefer to buff my companions so that they survive getting hit.

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