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Thread: Talk to the Team: Shields (Implemented)

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Shields (Implemented)

    This thread is about some potential changes we’re considering to Shields. We’d like to ask for player feedback and thoughts regarding the current state of shields as well as the proposed changes.

    Reason for the considered changes: Small and Medium shields are far less used than Large shields as they offer little benefit beyond aesthetics. Medium Round shields are used a little more, but still offer a penalty in terms of loss of Block and Armor compared to their Larger cousins. Revamping shields to create a reason for players to use them offers more choice for players as well as flexibility to play-style.

    What are the changes:

    • For starters the first change is to better standardize the armor values. They weren't consistent across types and tiers so by making them consistent and raising them slightly the armor values of shields are better.
    • The second change, and the one with the greater impact, is the adjusting of the Block values of the Shields. This change gives Smaller shields a greater block value when compared to Larger shields. The idea behind this being that you can more quickly move a smaller shield into position to block an incoming attack and it makes Smaller shields attractive when compared to Larger if Blocking attacks is your goal, but you will sacrifice significant armor to do so. As before, the Fine variety of Shields offers greater benefits than the standard variety.

      Here is a brief rundown of some selected shields across Tiers and types:


    Shield Armor New Armor Block New Block
    T1 Small 6 6 0 9
    T1 Fine Small 12 12 0 14
    T3 Medium 54 49 5 7
    T3 Fine Medium 69 82 5 12
    T5 Large 150 124 10 5
    T5 Fine Large 174 200 10 10


    FAQ:
    Q: Why don’t you have Smaller shields parry instead of block?
    A: This is indeed a good suggestion and is what smaller shields were traditionally used for, but unfortunately this would create a much larger headache in the game with where techniques could be applied as well as mixing the accepted game convention of Weapons Parry while Shields Block.

    Q: How do Round shields fit into this change?
    A: Round shields are considered to be Medium Shields for Armor and Block values.



  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Looks good so far.

    I've always felt that there was zero reason to use anything other than a (Fine)Large shield if my school allowed it. Basically it was "stick the biggest shield on you were permitted to use" and that was that.

    Under the new system, looks like you've a little choice now which is nice. More Armor or More Block?

    This is the way FFXI used to do it; you blocked more often with a smaller shield, but blocked less damage per block than you did with a big shield. I don't know if Istaria's engine allows that, so we'll just have to settle for the Block vs Armor model you proposed above.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Can we get the armor/block comparisons for an entire tier? You gave us t1 small shields, t5 large. Give us the proposed values for everything t5 (t5 small, t5 fine small, t5 medium/round t5 fine mendium/round, t5 large, t5 fine large), then we can comment on the ideas.

    I think a small parry bonus to the small wouldn't be that bad. Just like say +12 or the small, +6 on the medium, none on the large.
    Thinking on the parry is that the lighter shield allows character to be more agile and evasive.

    Ooh, nice alternate idea: Evasion bonus and/or penalties. More likely a bonus, or the large shield becomes worthless in effort to make the small more desired.

    small +10% evasion, medium +5% evasion, large no bonus to evasion. But really, the parry attribute makes more sense.
    Last edited by Guaran; June 18th, 2013 at 03:42 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Can we get the armor/block comparisons for an entire tier? You gave us t1 small shields, t5 large. Give us the proposed values for everything t5 (t5 small, t5 fine small, t5 medium/round t5 fine mendium/round, t5 large, t5 fine large), then we can comment on the ideas.

    I think a small parry bonus to the small wouldn't be that bad. Just like say +12 or the small, +6 on the medium, none on the large.
    Thinking on the parry is that the lighter shield allows character to be more agile and evasive.

    Ooh, nice alternate idea: Evasion bonus and/or penalties. More likely a bonus, or the large shield becomes worthless in effort to make the small more desired.

    small +10% evasion, medium +5% evasion, large no bonus to evasion. But really, the parry attribute makes more sense.
    I considered evasion, but it didn't make sense to me. Shields don't improve your evasion. They might hinder it, but we nixed the idea of having a penalty. As I said about Parry, it breaks the convention that the game builds as well as potentially creating issues with techniques so that is why it wasn't added.

    Block values are consistent across all Tiers. They are 9/7/5 for the Small/Medium/Large and 14/12/10 for the Fine Small/Medium/Large. Armor values in T5 are currently 96/123/150 and 114/144/174. They'll adjust to 86/105/124 and 124/162/200.

    So, the regular large shield loses block, while all others gain more or stay the same. Non-Fine shields tend to lose a bit of armor while Fine shields gain. The idea behind that armor change was to make it so that a Non-Fine Large was equal to a Fine Small in terms of armor. And it creates a wider gap between non-Fine Large and Fine Large.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  5. #5

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    I honestly can't believe what I am reading. Personally I would argue that the larger shield SIGNIFICANTLY increases block (after all that's why Romans and Spartans use them). However the trade off being a penalty to evasion. If you really want an example of how such a large shield could be used look up the show Deadliest Warrior and look for the Spartan battle it really strikes home how a shield should be used to its fullest.

    I understand you want to make the otherworldly more desirable but please don't do it by making large shields useless. Or if you do can we possibly get a rebate on certain quest kits?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    I honestly can't believe what I am reading. Personally I would argue that the larger shield SIGNIFICANTLY increases block (after all that's why Romans and Spartans use them). However the trade off being a penalty to evasion. If you really want an example of how such a large shield could be used look up the show Deadliest Warrior and look for the Spartan battle it really strikes home how a shield should be used to its fullest.

    I understand you want to make the otherworldly more desirable but please don't do it by making large shields useless. Or if you do can we possibly get a rebate on certain quest kits?
    Correct, large shields should block better, but then in reality you don't have an armor value that reduces the damage you take from a sword in the stomach. :)

    Giving larger shields higher block was considered, however to give Large shields both high armor and high block would leave them in the same situation they currently are. i.e. the only shield that anyone uses. Small shields traditional would be used to parry (as was pointed out to me on Chaos one day several weeks ago and read about in research later), but as I stated adding Parry to shields would create additional problems (where can techs be applied, parry is described as something with weapons in the game, etc).

    The original idea was that you'd have a penalty for using larger shields, but after discussion we decided that having a penalty when using a shield wasn't a good thing for the game so we nixed that idea and went with higher block on smaller shields. In a way, it isn't so bad. Larger shields will still give decent protection as Fine Large remains the same as before with its block value, but gains additional armor (which helps reduce the damage you take). Smaller shields will simply help you avoid attacks better than their larger variety.

    Hope this helps explain our thought processes a bit more. Sometimes reality has to take a back-seat to game design and in this case we had to also take into account existing conventions and techniques already in the game
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    I would think lighter shields such as bucklers were made for riposte, parrying, evasion and larger ones for pure mitigation, coverage, and blockage. You don't evade with a tower shield, you block, steadfast. You deflect with a buckler, or forearm guard in a similar fashion.

    Don't think there should be any penalty to either, just the bonuses they give. Also would make sense if a weapon delay was attributed to each: lighter shields decreased weapon delay whereas larger shields increased it. Now I'm out of scope with some Dark Souls influence hah.

    Not entirely sure the order in combat, but I imagine evasion rolls before your block checks. Would make sense for a lighter armored figure to evade and take the full damage blow should it land and a heavily armored figure to take the blow and mitigate the damage dealt. Then again, if you were 278 with max base statistics, you could tech yourself any way you want regardless of shield. I suppose a base percentage modifier could be thrown on shields by class as well.

    Whoa, too much going on. Perhaps just simply adding an incentive to smaller shields is good!
    rip

  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Looks great , my question is what about Tower Shield and the other named shield and KNOC's shield will they be affected ?
    OK the old sig was too long , this one is better.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by MarshDog View Post
    Looks great , my question is what about Tower Shield and the other named shield and KNOC's shield will they be affected ?
    The Ceremonial Tower Shield and Reklar's Tower Shield are both epics and classified as Tier 6 Fine Large. The Swarm Tyrant (wasn't sure if anyone still had that) is classed as a Tier 3 Fine Medium. KNOC shields, I had forgotten about those. Thank you for the reminder.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    A little background info:

    Block and evasion have the same effect -- damage avoidance. This is when you completely avoid taking damage, as opposed to damage mitigation, where you take damage, but a smaller amount. Armor is damage mitigation.

    The proposed values allow you to choose between preferring mitigation over avoidance, avoidance over mitigation, or a bit of both.

    As far as evasion/dodge vs shield/block stats go, unless your evasion and dodge stats are much higher than your shield and block stats, there's not much difference between having a shield boost one set or the other. A block and a dodge are independent rolls. (Well, you won't get a roll for a dodge if you already blocked the attack. :p)
    You can get anything you want in life -- just make a lot of noise and bite the right people.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Looks great , my question is what about Tower Shield and the other named shield and KNOC's shield will they be affected ?


    Spent some time digging into KNoCs (I wasn't all that familiar with them). Having reviewed their existing armor/block values against the proposed, any would actually hurt almost every shield. In addition, armor and block value changes don't address other concerns that players have voiced in the past about how the KNoC items are less useful than the crafted techniqued variety.

    So, for now, I think I'll likely leave the Shields of Creation as is without any changes.
    Last edited by AmonGwareth; June 30th, 2013 at 11:50 AM.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Thank you amon.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    If you want desription/lore based then perhaps give large shield a bonus against ranged non spell type attacks

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    and if you do not know the difference between a highest level knoc shield and a currently fine medium shield her is the details of both as they currently stand
    Knoc shield according to the wiki is equal to in armor wise to a large shield with a currently +5 higher block bonus
    to me this should not be changed becasue a knoc shield gives you the ability to be teched or socketed

  15. #15

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by starlight View Post
    and if you do not know the difference between a highest level knoc shield and a currently fine medium shield her is the details of both as they currently stand
    Knoc shield according to the wiki is equal to in armor wise to a large shield with a currently +5 higher block bonus
    to me this should not be changed becasue a knoc shield gives you the ability to be teched or socketed
    Right... as I said, for now I'll leave them alone as I don't have a plan for them. However, I do think that at some point in the future they should be addressed because I have seen complaints before about how they do not allow sockets or techs and this puts players at a disadvantage compared to crafted weapons/shields. So I think we'll work on formulating a plan to address that at a point in the future, but just not right now.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    since this thread also refers to shields. I suggest that the ceremonial shield and the reklar shield stats not be changed. reason is they the only two "epic" type shields and should not be changed to match bonuses of the everyday crafted an teched shields

  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    i agree with starlight please do not Alter the ceremonial shield or reklar shields these are the only 2 epic shields in the game and putting techs on them makes them the same as crafted shields . why hunt reklar or do the imperial outpost quest for a crafted shield .. to me this makes no sense and to include an epic shield as a t5 shield is also wrong .. as per Lovwyrms suggesrion on blight discussion i agree that the ceremonial scale should aslo be alter as it is from the same quest line

  18. #18

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Concerning Reklars tower shield and ceremonial, is the 254 armor the t6 large in the new scheme? As others have mentioned a t5 that can take sockets becomes better, just stick +65 armor crystal in... soo, to counter that, and since these are "epic", shouldn't the armor be 319? (65+254).

    Or, stick with the new armor value and add some sockets...

    You mentioned possibly trading it in for one that can be teched, will Ceremonial retain its hidden buffs? (Procs of mystical ward of istaria and the melee ward, which can land on group members). Those are what really make that shield worth using in spite of the evasion penalty.

    Reklars tower shield really needs a boost ... perhaps give it 3 tech slots, or give it 2 slots (for drag on armor sockets) and just up the block to the new value+t5 block technique amount? (Since there's no way to drag to apply the block tech). Since this shield is crafted, would it be able to be teched during creation?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    And the other thing to ask is if the option is going to be there for trading in the Ceremonial shield, does that mean those of us who have the shield already will be able to keep it as is now without the new changes? (i.e grandfathered) that point has never really been made clear.

    And its quite a big deal because if the values to block and armor specifically are put onto the ceremonial shields we have now, then it penalizes us for having an older ceremonial shield (block 10, armor 254, no added techs, no ethereal armor boost, evasion penalty) rather than trading it in for the proposed ceremonial shield (block 10, armor 254, two techniques, etheral armor boost, no evasion penalty) that has all the additions to counter what is being lost.

    So is the option to trade in the ceremonial shield going to mean the old shields are going to be grandfathered as is, or are the changes to block and armor going to be applied to them also?


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    "

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Shields

    Nice point Guaran, i completely forgot about the Ceremonial's buffs.
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