Barriers to Entry - Thoughts from a New(again) Player

[Exadi]

As background my husband & myself did play Istaria some years ago & left due to getting married and having to coordinate an international move, new jobs, et cetera. Life's calmed down so we've come back to Istaria to have a poke around at things and there have been many changes, mostly good, but one in particular that I admit I find downright baffling. I really want to come back and enjoy the game and be part of the community. We made our characters on Order because I'd like to think there would be opportunity later to engage in the roleplaying aspect of the game which has always held considerable appeal.

I offer this as both feedback from a somewhat-new player's perspective as well as a query, i.e. "Am I just doing it wrong?". By somewhat-new I mean that I do have previous familiarity with Istaria's systems and a historic knowledge of geography.

Barriers to Entry

Spirit Isle & the associated quests on New Trismus are for the most part good at explaining the game's systems or reminding people how things work, giving a taste of each of the broad schools, etc. I have no real issues with any of that. However I will add that at the level the quests are received, some of them are just downright un-completable. I.e. Red Tusks completely obliterated my character in 2 hits and I had to grind out level 25 before I could finish the Valor questline, the one that awards the level 10 chestpiece. I know that part of the idea with an MMO is that you group together to do things but given the low population and the fact that through this entire process I saw two other people - both dragons and maxed in level chatting in town - there wasn't a lot of opportunity for this. While I'm not above asking for help, I do at least try to do things myself first but the absolute impossibleness of it was a bit daunting.

Fast forward three days, I've reached 25th level and -still- not done all of my new Trismus quests, having levelled up through a combination of killing things 10 levels lower than me, eating crystals, and turning in collectibles. Particularly, I reached 25th level (of Shaman, so essentially, all of the prerequisite classes as well) almost completely and exclusively by killing level 11 maggots and eating the crystals they drop. Most of the quests I'm given ask me to kill things that completely obliterate me. I've come to the conclusion that the major reason for my difficulty is because of one major factor: lack of availability of starter gear formulas.

Apparently the early tradeskill progression, that let you earn more crafting recipes by actually crafting, has been removed from the game. The formulatrons have been revamped and now offer a 'random' recipe for the extremely prohibitive cost of 5s a pop and you can't even choose what recipe you get. Considering that in levelling two tradeskills and two adventure classes to 30+ I've probably made a grand total of 150s this is pretty steep.

So, I have to rely on the consigner (checking daily for 2 weeks now, still not got the recipes) or farming whatever drops the recipes.

The chainmail formulas apparently don't drop anymore on NT, and the ghosts, which used to drop an assortment of crappy blighted gear, no longer do this, so to get the level 10 formulas we must go kill level 18ish sand pygmys near lower bridgeview. After about 10 hours spent killing (and being killed by) these while wearing my level 1 gear and casting my level 1 lightning bolt I'd accumulated quite a few formulas and techs, including 3 pieces of the level 10 chainmail armor set.

Once I was able to make the 'iron ringmail' armor set (based on a shop bought recipe)- my gaming experience improved considerably. But this doesn't address the spell issue, as in order to get even the basic, tier 1 beginner formula for spells like earthen crust, lightning storm, thunder - apparently I have to go kill level 25-30 mobs.

The expectation that a new player must level from 1-25ish (depending on armor use stat) while wearing the level 1 gear and using many of the basic, shop-bought spells, is a definite barrier to entry and I believe one that will certainly deter potential new players who just have absolutely no way to obtain new gear. Fortunately for my husband and I, I've levelled armorer had that not been the case I think we'd still be killing those maggots as they were the only thing we could effectively kill!

Now, this has been going on for a few weeks now and while I love the game and am enjoying the nostalgia and such, I am a level 31 shaman, wearing a self-crafted set of lvl 21 Iron ringmail, using improved lightning bolt II as my basic attack (fortunately, this recipe did drop from the lvl 18-20 pygmies). I can barely handle forest skulks my level, even with a lot of healing, and regrowth 2 (shop recipe!) and level 2 gift/enhance buffs (shop recipe!) if I get two of them, I'm dead. I feel like I keep levelling up but my character isn't going to get any better until I can break through the gear barrier since the level 31 armor set is unavailable to me for the same reason that the level 11 set is, and most of my spell arsenal is the same thing I was casting as a level 8 druid.

Frustrated by how much damage I was taking by anything over about rating 22 (as in, can barely kill it without running for my life) I revisited the idea of looking for the level 11 armor recipes which would also make the iron (lvl 31) versions of them available. According to what I've read on forums and on other threads about this very same problem, I need to be fighting level 25-30 semi-intelligents to even get these to drop. Level 11 recipes. Level 25-30 mobs. Considering how much trouble I had with the rating 22 mobs, I considered this carefully, but finally my desire to really want to enjoy this game won so I set out to try and find a level 25 semi intelligent.

Using the map pack and variuos forums/wikis I tried to find something that would drop these recipes.
After running around achieving not much for a few hours, I asked in marketplace what I needed to be killing to get the beginner recipes that don't drop off of the lesser aradoth sand pygmies near lower bridgeview.

My responses were:
Go kill sand pygmies - which I said no, I have everything they drop, in triplicate, I had been killing them for days. I need the next things up.
"For T2 recipes go kill Gregory's...[gave me some coordinates]" - tried those, they are level 35-41 and wipe the floor with me. I said in chat that I was struggling due to only wearing lvl 20 gear as its the highest available to me as a level 31+ character, until I can get those recipes."

I then got berated for trying to be self sufficient, and told that I should ask someone to just make me some armor.
I was told "I don't need all the beginner recipes anyway" and basically to just deal with it.
Hello, I am a beginner..I need gear; therefore, I need the recipes for this gear.

I suppose I should say that part of the large appeal of Istaria to us is the crafting element. I WANT to be a crafter. I WANT to make armor for myself, my husband, our future alts, whatever. What I don't want, is to have to beg, mooch, etc. off of the community to make basic, I-just-got-out-of-spiritiisle levelled gear (level 11!) since the recipes dont drop until mobs that you'd really have to be level 35-40 to even think about, or already have the gear in question!

This used to not be an issue due to formulatrons (v1) allowing CRAFTERS to unlock crafting recipes by well, crafting. I cannot for the life of me understand why this was removed, because without the spell and armor recipes, its a hodgepodge struggle of half geared misery trying to do anything. My husband, who is playing a scout, is having the same difficulty and finally just went and ..you guessed it, farmed maggots to get to level 21 so he could put on iron and a decent weapon. He's been almost completely disillusioned by the game because he can't really kill anything, and while we'd both be happy to just sit and craft, we don't have a way anymore to get our recipes without doing some adventuring and the adventuring is painful without being able to craft level appropriate gear.

So it seems my choices at this point are:
a) wait till the stuff I need shows up on consigner or if I can find someone selling the formulas
b) get someone else to craft my gear; which defeats the purpose for me as we want to be crafters. I want to make different sets for different things and tech them up differently and etc.
c) reroll as a dragon for hopefully a reduced amount of frustration, or at the very least reroll as something that doesnt rely on spells for damage due to the long, long period between upgrades to to lack of recipe availability.
d) stand in town and beg for money to try the v2 formulatron ripoff machine
...
z) leave in a fit of rage

Now, I've posted this in rants for two reasons 1 because I feel that this is a serious, serious flaw in the early part of the game in that you can't do better than refurbished gear even if you're willing to put in the time and level armorer 20 levels higher than your character you still can't make them any actual armor. Same thing with levelling spellcraft beyond my adventurer level but still can't get spell formulas because can't make gear allowing me to actually kill the things that will drop them.

If a recipe is for an item usable by a level 11 character, I strongly feel that a level 11 character could be able to obtain said recipe and not need to wait until level 35 for it.

I'm concerned because even if I did decide to mooch/beg and/or ask people to make me gear with the specific techs I want etc. and I actually found someone willing to do this, I'm going to be in the same position later on as I presume there are going to be more missing recipes requiring me to be 20 levels higher than I need to be to USE it to get the recipe drop?

Can someone advise me if I've just missed something huge or is this actually my only option for being able to craft these?

[AmonGwareth]

Exadi, first let me thank you for taking the time to type up and post your thoughts and feedback regarding the new player experience in Istaria. We appreciate it as its always good to get viewpoints and constructive criticism on all of the game's systems.

I did have a few things I wanted to respond to and ask about.

1. On New Trismus did you check the Quartermaster and Spell Vendor for both armor and spells you could purchase? Did you try the consigner, usually NT is one of the most stocked?

2. Once you reached Kion did you look at the crafting trainers for formulas? Many trainers sell basic formulas related to their school that will let you get started.

3. Do you have any other schools to support your Shaman? Spirit Isle and NT are not designed for anything but the basic four schools, hence why you cannot join anything else there.

4. Red Tusks is available at level 7. Do you remember what school you were a member of when you attempted the quest? We can evaluate the monster's difficulty with regards to that.

5. Understood on the Valor quest. It can be difficult and at times finding other people can also be difficult. We'll take it under advisement.

6. Regarding equipment. This is a long-standing complaint and one we're continuing to investigate solutions to. One thing we're currently working on is making some un-teched equipment available to vendors to sell.

One note and I am not disparaging anyone on Order, but it is the less-populated server. You might have found more people on Chaos.

[AmonGwareth]

One additional note, I may have missed some of your points. Please don't be discouraged by that, and please know that we're happy to discuss any or all points further. We want everyone to enjoy the game and we're all in this together so please voice your opinions and feedback.

[Azath]

Yeah, the formulae & gear updating is one of the hardest things to do.
It's a cycle of: need gear, need forms to crfat gear, can't hunt for forms because you don't have gear..need gear...lol
(though, i kinda like this aspect. As much as it can be nice to do things on your own, i personally don't mind if you -do- need a full set of armour and you can't make it just because you don't have the forms...i'm usually happy to supply both formulae or gear if i can! And i know order especially has many people like me, who understand new players get stuck in said cycle of pain...and thus are often willing to help. We're a nice bunch and this is exaclty why i don't really mind the system currently: It forces you to meet the community. And that's kinda one of the best aspects of istaria; the community )

I gotta agree some of the NT quests are tough.
Valor quest i beleive is intended to make you team up with others..though as you raised, the community is small and it's hard to find people around your level...there are older players still willing to help though!
Red tusks is very much a quest that needs a higher level. My hatchies take until lv9 to solo it (mind, they're also -my- hatchies, the point being i always have their gear etc. up to spec because i've crafted it myself. newer players will not be as prepared) and my peds take around lv11 depending on class, again alone.

I'll give some simple advice for leveling; The community is very nice. As much as you like to do things alone first/as much as possible (by the looks of it) the system for gear does not allow you...accept it for now, and know that there are many crafters out there willing to help!

[Exadi]

Hi Amon thank you for taking the time to respond to what, in retrospect, was probably more ranty than I intended.

1. I picked up spells & armor from the respective 'new player' vendors yes; this was alright for levels 1-10. I think the difficulty here is that the "problem" set of armor is the level 11 set, as the level 1 set only offers a slight upgrade to what the quartermasters offer. I wasn't able to get all of the spells I needed from the dragon in NT, but the Imperial Spell Vendor in Sslanis (That I remembered from before!) had the rest of the gaps, after my suicide dash to get there.

2. Yes, no issues with the basic shop formulas, as I said the problem seems to be the drop-only formulas. I'm ok with there being drop-only formulas, but level 11 chainmail should drop off of a level 1-10 monster, so you can make it and put the armor on. I'd even be alright with it dropping off of a 10-19 monster, seeing as it would be nearly obsolete by the time you could kill those (and kill enough of them to actually get a specific recipe, ie hundreds) - at least you could still use it for the level 30 set. Being over level 30 and still not being able to kill the monsters that drop the lvl 11 armor recipe just feels broken. This would probably not be as big a deal at higher levels but playing at level 25 in the lvl 1 gear/spells you started with is a bit scary.

3. In order to unlock Shaman I've got mage to 10, cleric to 10, spiritist to 17 or so, and druid to 20 in addition to getting Shaman to 31 now. I've also gotten warrior to level 2 and a couple of other bits to unlock a few low lvl masterables, parry etc. in an attempt to survive better. It wasnt until I'd gotten my Shaman into the lvl 21+ gear set that I was able to actually finish the last NT quests.

4. I first tried it as a mage, which went laughably with the splatty splat. I had similar experience with the wolf quest so ignored them for a time then came back once I was lvl 20+ and roflstomped them all. My husband struggled similarly with some of the NT quests as a scout, but again this is just wearing the basic quartermaster gear. In most games, if something is too hard, you level up and get better gear the frustration here is that because you can't really get "good" gear until level 21 the only improvement you get for each lvl up is the small eva/hp increase in order to increase survivability (or the power increase to increase damage, since similarly you can't upgrade spells.). I know there is a 'refurbished level 10 set' available in Sslanis but considering Sslanis is unavailable to portal to and one must dash through lvl 20 nuking-you-in-2-shots skeletons to even get there this is of limited assistance.

5. I'm okay with the Valor quest being difficult. Its the end-all-do-all quest for the zone. I just think the reward could be better considering what lvl you have to be to actually do it, unless you're lucky enough to find a small group of new players all doing it at the same time.

6. The formulatrons were great for this, as you couldn't 'buy' the recipes and it still encouraged a bit of trade/swapping/consignering and it allowed crafters a way to get craft formulas rather than relying on adventuring/killing things. Thats what we initially loved about Istaria was that we could, if we chose, simply drive those cargo disks back and forth full of shinies all day long and fill in the recipe gaps with the lore tokens. I like that Istaria closely integrates the adventuring and the crafting, its immersive and realistic. I just think there need to be additional ways to unlock the in-between tier formulas and that that way should have something to do with crafting, rather than one's ability to aoe-farm packs of ogres for a mindnumbing amount of hours. Perhaps instead of having all of the formulas drop from mobs with a massive loot table have them drop a currency item that can then be used to purchase what you need somewhere. Same currency could be earned from repeatable crafting quests - so you'd still have to earn it, but you could prioritise what you need for your progression and you could choose how you went about doing it rather than....*logs into game* its Ogre time!

I think a much more reasonable system would be to allow the basic armor for all tiers to be crafted; if you want invisible pieces and such, those should be drop only and rare - no issues with that. No issue with the tech formulas and components also having a monster drop component since these are intuitive and you know where you go and what you have to kill and the loot tables are a more reasonable size, ie you'll get either a beetle mandible or a beetle shell or a beetle eye.

Most of all, I am not suggesting in any way that you "make istaria more like other games" - I don't think it should be 'easy', I just think that when confronted with a problem such as "this monster is too difficult for me" that you actually have some steps you can take to improve your character in order to try it again, rather than having no choice but to get another player to help you with it or level up until you're so much absurdly higher than it that your default evasion gain per level makes it unable to hit you, which has pretty much been my entire levelup strategy this far, but killing things that much lower level than you is, as you imagine, slow.

Right now I'm in the same predicament at level 31 as I was at level 11 - I can start to wear better stuff, but I have no way of actually getting it because I never got the beginner recipes because they dont drop off of beginner monsters - needs to be top of the tier, lvl 25-29 mobs, against which I've got no chance. From 11-25, I circumvented this problem by farming the dim miner's cog & other crystals that can be eaten for XP until I could equip the lvl 21 gear. For the level 31 gear, I've got the adventure level, and I'll have the armor use from my tradeskills, but no way to actually get the gear (or spells).

I have no problem grinding mobs as much as necessary to get stuff I need; my issue is more that I can't get the equipment necessary to *sruvive* dropping the mobs that drop the recipes that I need to get the equipment ...if you see what I mean. Which is why a currency system for formulas might solve the issue with the least disruption. Since no mobs on NT drop formulas at all anymore (except for the nameds and then only rarely) early crafting is severely hampered.

I know part of this as that I am on the less populated server but after the sheer number of hours I've spent trying to farm formulas as well as levelling up all of the crafts I need I despair at starting over on chaos just to have a more stocked consigner. I have found one or two pieces on the consigner in NT and I've run around unlocking portal pads to check more places. I just feel that you shouldn't have to do this, you should be able to farm mobs for the recipes you need for your level rather than it being a complete impossibility. Alternatively there needs to be another method to obtain said formulas.

[AmonGwareth]

Some feedback first, then the to-dos.

but level 11 chainmail should drop off of a level 1-10 monster

I respectfully disagree with this. That would actually make it too easy as you'd have level 11 equipment the moment you hit level 11. You wouldn't need to work on improving your equipment from level 11 to 20.

I'd even be alright with it dropping off of a 10-19 monster

Some do drop from level 10-19 monsters, just not all monsters. Keep in mind, however, that Beginner formulas offer you both T1 and T2 equipment so there must be a reason to hunt at T2. That is why only some formulas are available by loot at 11-20 and others are 31-40.

Regarding your #6 (formulatrons) this is unfortunately a difficult balance to strike. Keep in mind that the game originally swung heavily in favor of crafters and there was little for adventurers to do. We've attempted to swing it back to a more middle point where Adventurers and Crafters need each other (to acquire formulas, to make equipment, to gather resources, etc). Formulatrons and Techatrons are a way to avoid the adventurer portion to an extent, by purchasing formulas and techniques at random. This operates the same way that lore tokens did, but with a better chance at each type and requiring coin instead of tokens.

Sounds like there are a few improvements to be made.

1) Add a Spell Vendor to Kion offering spells for levels 10-17. Update the Spell Vendor in Sslanis to offer spells level 15-22.

2) Lower the difficulty of Red Tusks so it can be completed at the level offered.

3) Consider what to do with the Valor quest series. Don't have a solution here, just a to-do.

4) Make regular equipment available in Kion (level 10) and Sslanis (level 15).

5) Look at ways that crafters could either earn something to use at the formulatron/techatron. Some players have requested the return of resource parcels, others of the grindy crafting tasks. We're still unsure about what we want to do for this.

[Scoffer]

Husband here!

Anzha has covered most of my biggest concerns but one thing that I've found the most frustrating with this is that crafting becomes more of a gap filler. I've always been drawn to Istaria (or indeed, any game) because of its crafting system more than its adventuring and while crafting is a huge part of Istaria it almost comes across as being less important due to the way the recipes are distributed.

To try and break this down a little this is what I can see happening with two different chain of events
1) Adventure to level 11 with gear you have
2) cant make next step up gear because dont have the recipes
3) Kill the smallest thing you can kill for 20 xp a time as anything bigger you don't have the gear for
4) come back at level 30 so you can get the level 11 recipes
5) now in your shiny level 20 gear (at level 30) repeat step 2....

The alternative is slightly easier from a leveling point of view but takes away the crafting element
1) Buy, beg, steal, borrow the gear for level 30 so you can farm recipes to make the level 11 gear
2) make level 11 gear, deconstruct just to level up your crafts
3) next tear repeat step 1.

It gets to the point that because you cant make your own gear, why try to make it? If you are forced into a situation where you are needing to buy better equipment so that you can craft the lower level gear (which you have now outgrown) it becomes almost a situation where you are only making the gear for any alts or other new players who can follow your own process.

While its great that the community is willing to help out new players by either crafting items, giving recipes or even killing things for you it only addresses the issue, not the underlying problem of becoming self sufficient.

As Anzha previously said, we have come back to istaria for the 3rd time (maybe 4th?) and it does seem a lot harder to progress this time around due to the fact that trying to become self sufficient actually harms your progress.

*Please note, levels are just for demonstration purposes and not the actual level*

[Exadi]

Fair enough - too easy to get the whole armor set at level 11, I can see your point.
But still not having the (lvl 11) armor set at 30+, I think is pushing it.

Its the top-half-of-the-tier restriction that I think is the issue; if the lvl 20-25 intelligent mobs around britsugo dropped formulas or even some of the lvl 20-21 on lesser aradoth dropped [that level] of formulas at least you could hope to get them (the lvl 11 formulas...) before level 30!

Although I really do feel that your ability to craft different things should have more to do with your [crafting] level and be less tied to your adventurer level. Its a bit silly if I'm a level 50 (or even 100) armorer and I can't make level 11 chainmail nor can I ever learn how to make level 11 chainmail without also being a level 35-40 adventuring class.

While I do agree with your point that adventurers need something to do - making anything other than basic armor already requires specific mob hunting for components and there's always the potential to make some stuff rare drop only - just making "half" of an armor set, all of which requires the same level to wear, drop off of mobs 20+ levels higher, doesn't really make sense =/

[AmonGwareth]

I do understand your concerns, though I believe some of them are due not to the nature of the game but the fact that you are intent upon being entirely solo and self-sufficient. Which the game is not designed to be.

I believe my #4 would address some of your concerns about equipment. Basic equipment (un-teched) available at various levels would reduce the need to have formulas immediately available.

making anything other than basic armor already requires specific mob hunting for components

Only if you are intent upon adding techniques to every piece of equipment. If you are just looking for the un-teched armor, spells, etc then you need not hunt for components.

Ultimately the only way I can see it working to make all formulas available within each tier would be to make them so that they did not contain two tiers. Otherwise you run into a situation where you have nothing to hunt for at all at level 20-40.

I appreciate all of the feedback you've given us so far. Keep it coming!

Would love to hear other players feedback and opinions on this discussion.

[Azath]

I do understand your concerns, though I believe some of them are due not to the nature of the game but the fact that you are intent upon being entirely solo and self-sufficient. Which the game is not designed to be.
..........
Ultimately the only way I can see it working to make all formulas available within each tier would be to make them so that they did not contain two tiers. Otherwise you run into a situation where you have nothing to hunt for at all at level 20-40.

First point you gave - the cycle of craft (craft what you no longer need, can't get teh formulae to crfat what you do)
It's supposed to be a community based game i've found...perhaps that why i constantly hear people say this is the best community thye've seen? The community has to be nice for people to succeed (also works as a sly filter for bad people. all people enter the cycle of craft, need gear. if they're rude and a bad player they're unlikely to get it...thus...driving them away...and istaria keeps it's good community! :P)...what's the point in it being a "multiplayer" game if you play solo? Almost never ran into a time where i couldn't get what i needed!


I would hate to have 1 teir per formula...means to craft each teir you gotta grind for hours more on end getting that one formula you couldn't in all new teirs. (e.g. hunt t1, get t1 only, hunt t2, get t1 and t2...hunt t3, don't get t4...) i think it would create more of a problem than to begin with. Instead of getting only half a set, you could potentially mean soemone misses a whole set (loot tables would grow more, decreasing drop rate of everyhting even further...)
There's not really a good solution to it, people just have to accept that this game is not meant for solo playing.
Only good solution i can think of is exaclty the same as formulatrons currently...

[Dracillion]

...It's supposed to be a community based game i've found...

^this

Everything in this game besides NPCs are player derived. Without peoples work, there'd be nothing.

Also, multiclassing is not something easily performed without some dedication. In order to be successful at a prestige school, you WILL need its inherited schools on par to perform level to level. Leveling MAGE and WAR to 20 and BTLM to 100 is worthless. Your skills will be subpar and you will not be able to take T5 (lvl 80-100) or T6 (lvl 101+) content. You will be gimp. Some combos/builds are easier than others to roll out. WAR/CLRC is a popular beginning combo for new players as it makes them self sufficient in adventuring. Being self sufficient you can then branch out into crafting as you'll be able to farm mobs of equivalent level easily. It is common to see new biped players rush their favorite school to 100 only to be stuck and unable to progress.

I guarantee if you play WAR/CLRC back to back with one another, you will get both to 100 in no time and be able to farm your forms. Since you two play together, one can be Warrior while the other Cleric, then after 10 levels, switch around, Warrior becomes Cleric and Cleric becomes Warrior. In the end you will have gained two very solid, easily equipped characters capable of hunting all mobs necessary for your crafting forms along the way.

[AmonGwareth]

Some observations (after doing some research in the data).

Red Tusks was setup to spawn with a level range (8 to 10) and got 150% damage increase. So that would definitely cause issues. Next update it will be down to just level 8 with no damage increase.

Syrani in Kion sells some spells and Ssardask in Sslanis sells more including some Improved versions. So in terms of spells (unteched) it appears those are fine.

Jurixx in Sslanis sells upper end refurb gear (which isn't that great for the location). Amonsu in Kion is supposed to sell gear, but has no inventory. Thats definitely a bug. So, I'll look into them further and determine what they should be offering.

[Darkwing_Duck]

I know the feeling. I had to level my dragon on Chaos to level 100/100 to get anywhere. plus I`ve been hunting for a specific claw form that loot drop only now for at least a year with no luck. I tried asking in Market place, and other public chat channels, but got nowhere. unfortunately Chaos, though much higher population, lacks the willingness of the community to help. So I Will continue hunting for this mega rare formula.
Even though order`s population is much smaller, I`ve found they are much more willing to talk to you, give you advice, even make you a set of armor, or sell you their spare forms. I try to keep the consigner in NT stocked with forms when I get them, so if you are ever looking for a specific form, please feel free to poke me, and I`ll see if I have any on stock, or in one of my plot/lair storage. I often store many beginner, JM, and expert forms in my plots or lairs in case someone`s looking for a rare form
I can totaly understand how you want to be self sufficiant. Being able to make your own gear, and spells IS a plus.

[Yildar]

If you're leveling plate wearers, don't forget that you can always "downgrade to chainmail for a piece or two, you may be able to upgrade that way. And if you need something, don't hesitate to ask in the Marketplace channel - if you want to be self-sufficient, get the mats and then ask. I've been amazed at what people are willing to do to help out other players - and how many are willing to have their plots wide open including the silos. That really makes crafting a lot easier!

Yildar, battlemage on Order

[Exadi]

Thanks all for all your feedback and suggestions so far.

I realize that "solo play" and "self sufficiency" aren't possible here, however the current system makes levelling any craft (at least as a biped) pretty useless in terms of outfitting yourself with equipment and/or spells since you'll never be able to have your crafting able to support your adventuring.

Its chicken and the egg; you need adventuring first to get recipes to craft gear, but you need gear first to survive adventuring. So your only option is to go and buy gear from someone else; therefore making the actual crafting of gear pointless since you've already got the gear. If everyone did this, then nobody would level crafts at all.

I merely wanted to point out what I perceive to be a flaw and a deterrent for people coming in to the game is that there is a serious barrier to character progression unless you want to ask people for things. I don't like to feel like a beggar or mooch so I'm hesitant to sit there on a chat channel saying "can someone make me...." every time it comes up.

I think ultimately I will be forced to play, not the class combo that I want, but some other combo ie the WAR/CLRC suggestion just so that I can get enough adventuring levels to outfit and progress my chosen class. While I don't mind this so much per se, I certainly see it as being a deterrent for someone trying out the game.

It also seems that there is little point in trying to progress my crafting unless I want to level something that isn't tied in to or dependent upon my adventuring progression, which is disappointing.

Reasons to level crafting:

Outfitting oneself with equipment -
currently not really possible/reliable, and working as intended

Being a "crafter", selling/marketing crafted gear -
currently not really possible due to a very limited market especially for someone starting at the beginning. Crafted items sell for very little money compared to equivalent level monster loot. No way for crafters to get recipes except buying other players but the limited playerbase makes finding something specific difficult (ie case study - checking consigner for 3 weeks a couple of times a day and not seen any of a dozen or so formulas I've been looking for, for armorer and spellcrafter).

Learning crafts in order to outfit players newer than yourself or alts
This seems to be the only way to go now, as the items you can make for the most part wont be useful for you but could be for someone else, thus creating a cycle of dependence through the community.


I am not saying that there is anything wrong with this, however, it is definitely a barrier to getting involved in the game. I think crafting is such an important part of the world, since everything past beginner items must be made by players, yet there is very little reason to craft for your own progression.

[Cilok]

One thing that everyone seems to be forgetting, especially with respect to armor, is that half of the armor forms are available for sale through the NPC trainers in various racial cities. So for metal armor you have platemail, scalemail, ringmail, and chainmail. I forget which, but 2 of those types of forms are accessible through the NPC trainers (blacksmith and/or armorer, again my main being a dragon means I don't know the exact details). So, unless an adv class can only use the 2 types of armor that are drop-only forms, then you have guaranteed access to some forms, provided that you can get the money to purchase them.

[Dacurly]

I have one thing to say to everything I have read above -- Join a Good Guild -- The hole game will be different.

[terrox]

exadi . I beg to differ . my biped Terrox Krull played 1.5 years solo and not in any chat rooms . He enjoyed the challenges and was extremely happy when he was able to overcome some of these road blocks .he still enjoys being solo and self sufficent. if he is on when you are or my dragon Alt ( ghaur ) and yes It was him that sent you tpo Gregory's henchmen an I do appologies for that . I should have looked up you specs first .

[Azath]

...there is a serious barrier to character progression unless you want to ask people for things. I don't like to feel like a beggar or mooch...
...I think ultimately I will be forced to play, not the class combo that I want, but some other combo ie the WAR/CLRC suggestion...
...yet there is very little reason to craft for your own progression.

The bottom point is what made me want to raise craft in the first place...I wanted new alts, but, didn't want to have to ask for armour for all of them each time. Then, i also wanted to help. I wanted to raise craft precisely for helping others
And raising crafting as biped, it's not just about getting gear...they have 19 craft schools, over half of them are skills not learnt from teh base 3 and very few are for making gear!
Although i can kinda see how a new player doesn't think about this.

About the adventuring thing. There are 29 biped adventure classes. Unless you're a crafter primarily you're likely to be getting the majority in time! Warrior/Cleric are two neccesities any way you look at it. These are the first two schools one should level, since every single school (even mage classes form armour use) rely on them. Then there's 27 more classes to try out after...hehe.
Though again, i see a point in how this may not appeal to new players. It's a kind of, "survive the pain and get great reward" thing, and that like with all people, leveling the first class or two relies on getting from others.

On begging/asking others. I know certainly the community of order knows very well about how new players need things to get through these barriers...thus, one reason why we're generally happy to help.

...And if you need something, don't hesitate to ask in the Marketplace channel - if you want to be self-sufficient, get the mats and then ask...

This is closest to self sufficient one can get...and, i've also seen this never fail to have someone craft the needed thing!

I have one thing to say to everything I have read above -- Join a Good Guild -- The hole game will be different.

Would be my advice too!
I am one of leaders of the Istara's Chosen guild, and i know various members under my wings that are more than willing to help people in and out of the guild!

[Calyndrell]

I would also add simply as if i am on (arzel) ask me i will be happy to help and so would many scions