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Thread: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    C'mon Amon, it's "talk to the team", not "give a yay or nay and then stop the discussion"! We're open to ideas, everyone is - just some of us are less open than others. ;)

    Also to add onto my prior idea, there could also be quests that require you to be lunus or helian to get certain abilities to complement the rift in the lore, but also give more specialization.
    Unfortunately that's tough for people who are mixes, so maybe there could be quests added in such as "prove yourself to the helian faction" or vice versa to get some of the abilities that your mix can use but not all.
    (Personally I like the lunus/helian devide but it makes me sad that it's not very pronounced, but I'm probably kind of alone on that. Not many people like the split as I've seen, surprisingly.)

    Also Guaran, we have a spin-flame move!...if you spin your character around with 'Breath of Fire' and pretend it hits all the enemies. ;)

  2. #22

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Racktor View Post
    C'mon Amon, it's "talk to the team", not "give a yay or nay and then stop the discussion"! We're open to ideas, everyone is - just some of us are less open than others. ;)
    I'm not stopping it, I am just disappointed that ultimatums are issued. Do it this way or not at all, even when it was stated up front that it could not be done that way. I'm certainly open to ideas, but certain paths are not available to us (as we've discussed many times over the years) for a variety of reasons.

    Anyway, I apologize folks... Please don't let me derail this. If we can find a way to make it work for all, then I'm definitely in favor. However, there is no way in my opinion to build on top of what Dragons already have. Some stuff would have to be taken away in order to make it workable to have multiple schools that offered specialization, more advancement, etc.
    Last edited by AmonGwareth; July 22nd, 2014 at 08:48 PM.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

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  3. #23

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    This might sound like a bit of a duff suggestion, but would it be possible to do something for dragons where their maximum level is increased to say 120, and then build on the additional levels and training points available with Racktor's suggestion of having top-end spells with very high Primal or T&C requirements to scribe? Give dragons an additional boost that existing and new players alike can enjoy, with new quests for the 101-120 levels.

    I think a lot can be done within the existing dragon adventure school where players are encouraged to further specialise as a Helian or Lunus in the top tier. The additional 20 levels and accompanying abilities/spells can allow the developers the opportunity to improve the school as they see fit, dragons become truly fearsome at high levels and they get new content while enjoying the journey.

    I honestly don't mind if this suggestion I'm offering is shot down immediately, truth is that I'm a biped player and as Guaran has pointed out playing a dragon is a whole new game in Istaria, one I look forward to experiencing one day if I ever get bored of life as a biped :)

  4. #24

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    I like the idea of including some growth potential and specialization for dragons, but the proposed implementation makes me feel uneasy. No matter how it's spun, the proposal throws away the current dragon gameplay. Yes, you can keep your old characters, but nobody will ever get to experience what it's like to play a dragon as we do now. Given that Istaria has survived this long, I believe that we're doing something right with the dragon experience. It's not 100% right, but there's something good there, and we shouldn't be so eager to change it.



    That said, growth and specialization are good. I have an alternative proposal that builds upon the existing dragon school.


    I've been mulling over how to present this, since it's kind of big. Let's try following my train of thought.




    First. let's concede that Istaria is two games in one. There's a "dragon game" and a "biped game". The two share the same world, but do not have to share the same progression mechanics. (in fact, they don't). Just because bipeds do it, doesn't mean dragons have to, and vice versa.


    Okay, so dragons, forget about multiclassing. Instead, think about skill trees. Your character starts at the root of the tree, and can pick one of a few general areas to specialize in. Say, for example, melee combat and magical combat. Once you choose one of those two, you get new choices to further your specialty. Say you chose magical combat. You can then choose to focus on crowd control, healing, or one-on-one combat. As you progress, you gain new abilities, spells, and additional stats.


    But won't every dragon pick up every skill at once? No. Once you're going down a particular skill tree, you can't hop onto another branch (except where permitted by design). For example, as a powerful healer, you wouldn't be able to follow the skill tree to become a powerful melee figther too.


    ... So you don't like commitment. That's fine. You've invested a lot of time in your characters now, and it's kind of unreasonable to ask to throw it away because of a poor choice. You can always back out of a skill tree. It's going to take some time investment, but certainly less than the time you spent going down the tree to begin with. Once backed-out, you can choose a different area to specialize in. Of course, by backing out, you will lose the functionality you gained. There are no masterable abilities. (Though you may be able to re-acquire them if design allows).


    What's to keep someone from becoming a master <whatever skill> on day one? Each step along a skill tree requires proof of effort. For that, I propose using the XP gained above the threshold for lvl 100. Take that number, ram it into some equation, out comes another, smaller number. These are "venerability points". The abilities and spells you gain have a "venerability point cost". Add those up and subtract from venerability points. If the number is greater than 0, then you're good to go and can pick up another quest in the tree.


    Does this mean that dragons need to wait till lvl 100 to use the skill trees? YES. Lvl 100 is a good demarcation to denote the end of the current dragon progression. Adding on at this point won't affect the existing game play.


    So, what about gold rage? In order to start on the skill trees, you'll pick up a quest. Upon completion, you will be able to start specializing, but you won't have access to some of the difficult-to-balance abilities that you had before. This includes gold rage. Your stats (but not other level-tied properties) will also get dropped down to what you'd expect to have at, say, level 80. This creates headroom for additional growth without becoming overpowered as you progress through the skill trees.


    Won't I be super weak? Not really. After a few steps down any skill tree, you'll have regained the lost stats in the area of your specialization, and soon after that, exceeded your original stats.


    What if I don't like this skill tree thing? Backing out means you can back-out to your current lvl 100 state, gold rage and all. You're free to try again later, too.


    Can hatchlings/adults start on skill trees? I hope so. Players have all kinds of reasons to not ascend, and it's kind of unfair to arbitrarily exclude them from this level of progression. They may not be able to get to the deepest level of specialization though.




    This system allows partial deployment, incremental updates, and even the grafting of completely new trees. It's not destructive to existing characters, and doesn't kill the existing dragon experience. It's completely optional, and doesn't require leveling a new character to experience. Thoughts?
    You can get anything you want in life -- just make a lot of noise and bite the right people.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    I love that idea, Steelclaw! Though the problem is, I'm not sure if it's even possible for the devs to implement it. They might be able to figure something out by using the current training point system but I'm not sure if the hard coding of the game would even allow something like a skill tree. It might have to be in some sort of weird form of quests or something.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelclaw View Post
    I like the idea of including some growth potential and specialization for dragons, but the proposed implementation makes me feel uneasy. No matter how it's spun, the proposal throws away the current dragon gameplay. Yes, you can keep your old characters, but nobody will ever get to experience what it's like to play a dragon as we do now. Given that Istaria has survived this long, I believe that we're doing something right with the dragon experience. It's not 100% right, but there's something good there, and we shouldn't be so eager to change it.
    Thank you Steelclaw! You herewith have said, what others did not dare to say.
    And I would like to add: Why think about a dragon-revamp at that very time??
    (and btw: Some of us say, that crystalshaper-schoool was not really an overwhelming success)

    And pls consider: As the revamp is not made for only new players- howdo you think will returning players feel, if they come back and find their old drags obsolete and not playable anymore (no matter if alreadyancient or not).
    It seems its already hard enough to find into the game again (thats what they say)-
    burying their old dragon might not be a happy re-start.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  7. #27

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Also Thank You for your ideas, Steelclaw-
    which I start to like the more I think it about it.

    I would never touch my Lov.
    Seeing her fade away because she is not compatible with a new system/gameplay-
    would make me, the player, fade away too (oops- an ultimatum from a fan-girl??).
    It took me all that 10 years to have my dragons that mighty, well equipped, well balanced and clever. Its a continual process.
    And like Azath- I am not willing or inspired to start all over again.
    But Steelclaws suggestions are tempting.
    I can imagine to try something with Luna-or with my 2 old hatchies.

    Given that old dragons are not touched (ICL. Gold Rage!!!), given that they still can participate in everything new
    (with the restrictions of their old schools), given that they still can improve (the old way-like ancients do nowadays):

    A curious YES to Steelclaws suggestions
    and a NO (without any further comment) to a complete dragon revamp like Amon suggested.

    though I still think we need to change some things urgendly atm. Dragons is NOT one of them
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  8. #28

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Disappointing. I figured this thread might take a different path than previous ones, but it has reached this point in under a day. We have had discussions about how to address Dragons previously on this very forum. They went nowhere because it would involve a lot of change, pain, frustration and agony on the part of current players.

    There is no way around that, assuming we could even remove quested abilities (which we cannot without sql scripts manually run). I just don't feel that its a viable option. At least with the proposed system in this thread the kinks could be worked out without impacting existing players.

    Think this is the show stopper here, asking the existing player base to reject their current characters and create brand new ones is too much of an impact.........

    I agree with the proposal for the new schools, just not how its currently planned.

    I honestly don't understand why the new schools can't be built separately, tested for balance, and then integrated as advancement of the Dragon adventurer (SQL can be re-written, the simulation can be re-written etc, just takes time)

    At the time of intergration then weaken/nerf drag adventurer ready for the new schools.
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  9. #29

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    I honestly don't understand why the new schools can't be built separately, tested for balance, and then integrated as advancement of the Dragon adventurer (SQL can be re-written, the simulation can be re-written etc, just takes time)


    The issue is not tech. Obviously data can be altered as can code. The issue is how many years of discussing Dragon schools only to have quite a few players get quite upset about any potential change to the status quo of Dragons. That is quite honestly what motivated me to propose what I did. Again, as I stated, I have yet to see anything that indicates any acceptance of any sort of change to Dragons. So we're back to square one in my opinion.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  10. #30

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    agree that force players trash ther chars - wrong.
    who wants new system? where they ask for that?

  11. #31

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Krinharth View Post
    who wants new system? where they ask for that?
    As it stands right now two thirds of the active Chaos playerbase are dragons, this has held steady as a statistic for the last few weeks and probably longer. Due to dragons being one of Istaria's unique appeals and the high concentration of dragon players it does make sense to invest developer time into expanding the dragon race options within the game.

    I too am of the belief that we should build on top of what is already there, not replace it with a new system. One of the golden rules of an MMO production team is to avoid taking anything away from players, and certainly from Amon's suggestions it would seem that they have no intentions of taking anything away from existing dragons. The sticking point on this occasion appears to be an inability for existing dragons to take advantage of new features that may be on the horizons (excuse the pun!). In an MMO environment it is important to cater to both the new and existing playerbase, and on this occasion it is easy to understand why existing dragon players may feel left out by the proposals.

    I firmly believe that a collaborative discussion will yield solutions that do not impose heavily on developer resources whilst at the same time offer new versatility that will dramatically improve the dragon experience for all players, new and old alike.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    The issue is how many years of discussing Dragon schools only to have quite a few players get quite upset about any potential change to the status quo of Dragons. That is quite honestly what motivated me to propose what I did. Again, as I stated, I have yet to see anything that indicates any acceptance of any sort of change to Dragons. So we're back to square one in my opinion.
    In order to balance the existing Dragon Adventurer school, what would need to be taken away from it?
    (I know this has been mentioned before, but can we get some specifics onto this thread)

    If the existing dragon adventurer school was changed to allow further multiclassing, what would Dragons gain in the long run?
    (IE Would they end up with better characters, or would the current dragon adventurer end up spread across 4/5 schools)

    My thinking is if people understood the full impacts, then we might have a more balanced debate
    (Default reaction is Change = EEK = Nerfs = Rage Quit)
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  13. #33

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    I'm all for change. I'd love to have a reason to come back and play again personally.

    Sooooo...

    Is it possible to leave the current Dragon classes as they are without changing anything. Bring in new classes that require level 100(or 50 or so, would depend on the classes being added) and just change the name of the ADV class from DRAG to something else???? I mean the abilities in question ALL specify DRAG as a requirement anyway. So I'm thinking that with new classes this should not be a problem what so ever. The only issue would be what abilities from the DRAG class to incorporate into the new ones.

    EX. Lvl 100 DRAG wants to become more warrior like so DGWR(dragon warrior). Any leveled abilities/spells to be used would have to have DGWR on them.
    Current player base would keep their dragons and/or move on.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooolios View Post
    Is it possible to leave the current Dragon classes as they are without changing anything. Bring in new classes that require level 100(or 50 or so, would depend on the classes being added) and just change the name of the ADV class from DRAG to something else???? I mean the abilities in question ALL specify DRAG as a requirement anyway. So I'm thinking that with new classes this should not be a problem what so ever. The only issue would be what abilities from the DRAG class to incorporate into the new ones.
    I don't feel that it is. Any school would need changes to it when adding more on top. And, the real problem is the quested abilities. They are not tied to a school so any changes to Dragon Adventurer cannot alter those. That is the real sticking point with Dragons...
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  15. #35

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Thanks for the Quick reply.

    Soooo I guess youll say no but would making the current(or most of the current quested dragon abilities) useable only by the DRAG class be a possible idea?

    Maybe a new dragon race as a new playable character that functions differently??? New players could choose either or?

    Without touching the current way of things is hard:(

  16. #36

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I don't feel that it is. Any school would need changes to it when adding more on top. And, the real problem is the quested abilities. They are not tied to a school so any changes to Dragon Adventurer cannot alter those. That is the real sticking point with Dragons...
    putting GR aside is there any ability that you really don't like that is quested for though? we know all about the dev hate of GR:) thing is atleast for myself.. if you are adding more i don't mind some being taken from DRAG as it is

    personally as for GR i would increase its timer but increase its damage further.. or just do a general damage upgrade for dragons.. maybe increase base damage for dragons by 10 but lower increase the timer on GR..
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    I have read many of the posts, and have seen more against than for the idea.... I have played for 4 to 5 years, I enjoy Istaria very much. I would also like to see some changes made to the dragons. Yes I RP, but I only do so with a select few, and those select few very well may be willing to start a hatching or juvenile as you call it, Amon and continue as before. I don't see how a rebirth can change a RP, for I, myself, have a dragon that I reborn and worked it into her RP. I am also willing to try this new system, for it seem interesting to me, I am a player who loves a challenge...I do not EVER wish to be the BEST OF THE BEST, but I strive to make my characters good at what THEY do, Arya for instance is mainly a RP dragon, and my Pearl is also a main RP dragon but she is the one I do the most hunting, fighting and battle with. If I try out this new system and enjoy it, I would be willing to give my Arya and Pearl a rebirth, they would still have their mates, and their life story will continue from that point. What I dislike is the fact over the years I have read and read about all these want more of this, more of that, stronger here, weaker there....And when a solution is actually spoke about it gets shot down like a duck in season....If one wants to try something new, there very well may be a sacrifice in that....is that so terrible that you all will tell the Dev's no on something that could be a benefit in the log run? Another thing, Amon has spoke several times that this WOULD NOT effect the current dragons, so what is so bad about that? If you don't want the change, keep your Chars as they are and keep on going in the path you wish...You all can not expect them to change and alter the current codes for the dragons already made, if you don't like how your current char is then give them a rebirth and implement the new system into them...how hard is that to choose from? There are many who love how their dragons are now, just as I do, but I am willing to test it out and if I find it can make my game play now better, then I will change over, I do not have a gripe one about starting a new character, there is always a slot open in my list and if not, it is not hard to put one in archive to free a slot to try the new system, if it is not liked then delete the one made and pull the original out of archive

  18. #38

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AryaStrongClaw View Post
    Amon has spoke several times that this WOULD NOT effect the current dragons, so what is so bad about that? If you don't want the change, keep your Chars as they are and keep on going in the path you wish...You all can not expect them to change and alter the current codes for the dragons already made, if you don't like how your current char is then give them a rebirth and implement the new system into them...how hard is that to choose from?
    From what I'm reading and heard here that isn't true. Most of those I that I know RP, or I have RP'd with, have posted on this thread and would not be willing to start a new juvenile or hatchling if we found our current characters were obsolete.

    Yes Amon said it would not affect current dragons, but just because something exists in this game and is not touched, does not mean it is not made obsolete. Would current dragons still get tweaks, new abilities, and updates to them? If not, then it is obsolete, and that could make doing or partaking in new content a problem.

    What has not been answered is how our current dragons would balance out against the dragons in this new proposed system. If the current dragons are left untouched, would they be weaker, stronger, or balanced to dragons in the proposed system? I think most people's major point of contention is this issue. Until that concern of balance between DRAG and the new specialist schools is answered, at least for myself, I can not change my view or even make a proper and fair consideration of the proposal. In that case, saying no is the safest thing.

    How hard is it to create new dragons? When you have six or seven characters and are near your character limit, making new characters is quite a daunting task and a monumental amount of work to do all over again. It is something that the majority of us do not want to do, for whatever our different reasons may be. I know that there are those who don't want to have to make new characters because they would have to choose between deleting/archiving a character(s) they have put hard work into, or are attached to, and they don't want to do that. For myself, I have had dragon character(s) who have been played as long as this game has been around. And if I'm being blunt, I'm not really too fond of the idea or possibility that my oldest and dearest characters could be consigned to the obsolete bin. I am quite attached to them. I want to be able to hunt with them, use them for new content, and do more than just bring them out for RP.

    I don't think any one is adverse to change, and they do want some change in dragons and some new content for them, but what they don't want is to have to rebuild everything they have built for years from scratch.
    Last edited by Arzel Rashemi; July 30th, 2014 at 10:24 AM.


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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel
    What has not been answered is how our current dragons would balance out against the dragons in this new proposed system. If the current dragons are left untouched, would they be weaker, stronger, or balanced to dragons in the proposed system? I think most people's major point of contention is this issue. Until that concern of balance between DRAG and the new specialist schools is answered, at least for myself, I can not change my view or even make a proper and fair consideration of the proposal. In that case, saying no is the safest thing.
    This.

    Also, to the people replying saying most people don't want a change, that isn't entirely true. Most seem to be just scoping it out and asking questions before they jump on a revamp bandwagon. In my opinion, there are ways to refine the current dragons to be better; they aren't broken, why 'fix' them? Expanding is the best idea in my opinion and there have been viable suggestions on how to do so without murdering the system or running into the problems Amon's mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel
    When you have six or seven characters and are near your character limit, making new characters is quite a daunting task and a monumental amount of work to do all over again.
    Also seconding this, I have 13/14 characters, 12 of which are dragons - 5 ancients, 1 lvl 80 adult, and 1 lvl 40-something hatchling to name the ones with progress. Can't say it's easy for me to make a new character these days unless I want to throw them in archives, especially where I'm still unsure of how it works.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    What Arzel said.

    The game as it currently is content wise, is about 75% dragons. A huge number of quests would all be affected if they move forward with new schools.

    All because they want to get rid of Gold Rage, and since it is quested for, those of us who have it would still keep it, or so they say.

    I say that's incorrect.

    Just because an ability is quested for, does not mean all schools can use it. Example: See Storm Disciple quested for abilities "Way of Ice" , "Way of Fire" (I think).

    Dev's have yet to state which all abilities Dragons currently get, that they want want to do away with besides Gold Rage. We know about that one. What about Dragon's Gift? Dragon Reach? Hardened Scales X? How many would really need removed to do what they want to do?

    The game originally had a large dev team, and they spent years putting it together. Ditching the DRAG school is like throwing half of that away, and starting with something untested, and we just have to take it on faith that it will "turn out ok"...

    If dev's can answer which all abilities they want to get rid of, maybe we can start discussing the idea. For now we are in the dark, except for the Gold Rage which we know they want removed. And honestly, changing just this one ability to require DRAG school to use shouldn't be impossible. Assuming the rest of the abilities can just stay as-is and the new schools will get all those same quests as well, then it should be possible to move forward designing new schools. Totally removing DRAG just sounds like a really bad idea. As I said before, if(when) something goes wrong with new schools, the game isn't going to survive a several year "dragon down time" while it gets sorted out. Being able to switch back (so yes, Dragons will be able to multiclass, get over it) is the safety net the game needs to be able to survive this drastic undertaking.

    Once we get more info from Dev's on what they wanna gut from DRAG school, we should be able to contribute more ideas and input.

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