Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

[LOVWYRM]

Calyndrell, I sign all points of your last posts.

Esp. I agree on the point, that no more health is needed.
I mean- IF Lov or Luna die( which hardly happens) I made a mistake- not cause I had too few health.

And Alisto- due to my probs with English language - I did not get all you stated.
But I would love to compare Rinn (in t6 scales) with Lov.
Remember when we met at the wall -some days after the dragon changes-
and I wondered how much stronger Lov compared with Luna is?
Caster really have improved- I love it.

And yes- maybe some citizens of Istaria have outgrown the epics- but look WHO that is:
Vets and passionate players.
But the average players should have a chance to go for epics too.
So pls do not strenghten the epics- give us some NEW challenges.
If there is no capacity for something really new- take an old mob (not boss)- and make it uber epic-
like I suggested before: Changing resistances- a wide variety of attacs- some unpredictible behavior.

But never change the dragons or weaken them in the "near" future. Additional schools- why not. I can think of some restrictions,
that drags do not become more uber- if they use it all (new schools I mean)

[Guaran]

Thread has gotten horribly off-course regarding new schools for Dragons...

Dev's already nerfed Gold Rage, so I would be interested in hearing if they think that it can now fit it in with new schools for Dragons, ones that perhaps open up spellcasting as a primary combat playstyle for Dragons. I've made some suggestions a few pages prior that I believe would be easy to implement, and could make for some fun new builds that Dragons could play with. I would love to hear dev comments regarding those suggestions of mine:

....I made a simpler suggestion that accomplishes the same thing. A higher Determination and Primal Roar, which would add +400 values vs the current +200ish ones. The Ancient Primal Roar and Ancient Determination would not stack with each other or with the current t5 ones, but a Dragon can have both abilities in the character tab, alongside the current Determination and Primal Roar. Basically choosing which to use puts the player into that specialized combat style, or by using the old versions of those abilities can choose to stick with their current playstyle and build.


The balance is achieved by linking timers 100% with Gold Rage, for the Ancient Primal Roar. If dev's so decided for balance reasons, could also link the timers to Ravage and a few other dragon melee attacks as well. So for a nice, viable, spellcaster playstyle, the dragon gives up Goldrage, Ravage, etc. But gains +400 power, +400 Primal, +400 Dragon Breath, +250 spell attack skill. The timer for Ancient Primal Roar could be 60 minutes, and it could set backwards by 60 minutes the melee abilities' timers that the dev's decide should not be given to the spellcasting player. Also or alternatively to the timers being shared, the Ancient Primal Roar could have -400 T&C, -400 Strength. That would also limit the melee attacks as well. I would leave tailwhip and drain strike alone though, so the spellcaster has some small defense.


Then simply use the flipside for an Ancient Determination. +400 t&c, +400 strength, +400 Dragon Breath, +250 attack smill, -400 primal, -400 power. I would say it shares a timer with dragon spell abiltiies as well, but we don't really have any. Adding some new spell abiltiies (not spells) that could then be made unavailable by sharing timers would balance it, along with making a real spellcaster dragon a possible and viable option.

New spell abilities:

Primal Blast VII
2 Extra Attacks
+70 Attack Skill
500% Damage Adjustment
Automatically hits
Delay 20
Range 35
Hoard cost 3300
Recycle 1:00
shares timer with Gold Rage for 60 seconds

Target Effect: Blinded VII
Modifies delay by +5%
Modifies recycle by +5%
-20% Chance to hit melee
-40% Chance to hit ranged
lasts 60 seconds

Primal Evisceration III
4 Extra attacks
Delay 20
Range 35
Hoard cost 250
Recycle 1:00
shares timer with ravage for 60 seconds
Level 87

The new spell abilities could be quested and come in lower tiers which would allow a Dragon to play as a spellcaster from a young age. Their timers would be shared for 60 minutes with Ancient Determination, and would therefore be unusable if a Dragon uses that ability.

The Hybrid class would just keep using both of the older t5 versions of Determination and Primal Roar, which would continue to stack with each other as they do now. They could use both the new spell abilites as well as Gold Rage, Ravage, however they do share timers with each other, so it would be one or the other.

I am undecided if + and/or - to Focus and Dexterity is really needed, since those are already low to begin with.

The new buffs:


Ancient Primal Roar
Delay 80
Recycle 0:05
Range Self Only
Target Effect Ancient Primal Roar


+400 Power
+400 Primal
+250 attack skill spells only
+400 Dragon Breath
-400 Tooth & Claw
-400 Strength


Duration 60:00


Does not stack with Determination V, Primal Roar V, Ancient Determination


Ancient Determination
Delay 80
Recycle 0:05
Range Self Only
Target Effect Ancient Determination


+400 Strength
+400 Tooth&Claw
+250 attack skill melee only
+400 Dragon Breath
-400 Primal
-400 Power


Duration 60:00


Does not stack with Determination, Primal Roar, Ancient Primal Roar

[Spyrioyo]

I agree this topic gone off topic. I for one am interested in new dragon schools as long as they are implanted for balance. I am actually interested in Guaran's idea of new moves. As my previous post mine idea was ambiguous. It's not intended to limit in choice, just need to make sure it's balanced. Also it's not right for the reverse situation that bipeds do everything and dragons do nothing that is also wrong. The main point is balance. To stop this limit in choice we need some unique new schools for dragons that make dragons look like dragons we don't need to make them overpowered to be dragons we need new unique schools to bring it out.

[Kraurim]

(Love how I'm only making an account just now after 5 years of playing)


The Dragon Adventure school is pretty bland in the sense that it doesn't diversify into anything unique, but we've had it that way for so long that making any changes to it is obviously going to be very difficult. Dragons are of course the main thing that draws players to Istaria but we vets have been what's keeping it alive. Simply by providing population to the game we encourage new players to stay, because without a community then what's the fun in being a dragon in an mmorpg? I've had new players tell me they thought the game was abandoned when they first joined because they couldn't find any other players, they almost quit because of that. I myself wish to be on the role-play server but because Order has less players, I stick to Chaos. So with utmost certainty, we can't do anything that'll make us oldies no longer want to stick around.

When you're playing a game where you can be a dragon, then why play a biped at all? I believe for the majority it's because there's so much diversity in what you can BE as a biped than as a dragon. So when playing dragons becomes boring, then you lose that main draw to the game, and since bipeds don't have anything special for them (mounts could be an example) then they eventually get boring too and the player leaves. I know Virtrium is a small team and I can't even begin to express how much I love you guys for not giving up with Istaria, but I personally think we do in fact need to be more worried about making players STAY than to draw a bigger crowd. When we have players that stay because the game is fun, then the amount of new ones we get will increase as they encourage friends or others to join it, so really that's two birds with one stone.

Eventually it may get to the point where we'll HAVE to preform some risks to keep the game alive. So what if dragons become a bit more like bipeds in the sense of multiple schools? That's what keeps the players occupied, they want to try out all the combinations, all the new and unique things you can do and be. Adding crystal shaping was successful, so if something works then why not keep doing it? You don't necessarily have to make massive changes to the story or lore, something as simple as a collection system can do wonders. Human beings pride themselves on accomplishment, something like a collection system can keep players occupied and entertained for years. Titles are cool and all but just that? I'm sure people like to have other shiny new things to own with those as well. I also know I'm starting to get off topic, but as I mentioned before things like mounts or even a mass of cosmetics to collect, rare items to get, things that can make your character even more unique and special looking can do a whole lot just as they are. Even little things could work, perhaps dragons could have an option for their lairs to adorn gold and gems, maybe scattered into the walls of the lair or maybe just in piles depending on the size of their actual hoard. Just small things like that can work pretty well.

When it comes to new dragon schools, perhaps changing existing ones may work, perhaps it won't. I personally think just adding new schools to choose from can help, but keep dragon adventurer. Now before you say that's a bunch of nonsense, let me explain what I think may work.
---
Dragon Adventurer can basically be a jack of all trades and master of none school for dragons, and the dragons can be unique in a sense that they are the only race that can have a school like that, or if you disagree then a similar school can be added for bipeds. Schools like Amon mentioned such as Warrior or Caster (maybe even more schools like healer, or something involving fire as dps) for dragons could be a school that the dragon can EXCELL in, but they can still switch between that school and dragon adventurer like crafting and lairshaping. The catch is that you can pick only ONE special school to master and you can only choose the school you want to do after choosing their faction, that way players may want to make more characters for the other schools and the players who had already completed their rite of passage can be given the option to choose one of them so they don't have to make a new character, this saves the vets too. Why after choosing a faction? Because a lot of players may not know what school they want to excell in, and I'm pretty sure by the time they have to pick a faction, they'll have a fair idea of what they want. Then you won't have new players constantly complaining that they don't like their selected school and what not, since the idea of picking a special school is permanent. The school could level up as you fight/cast/heal/whatever while in that school. As the school levels, specific skills increase drastically and plenty of new abilities may be rewarded. You gain experience by using abilities that relate to that school while fighting or maybe even crafting, perhaps even a new system can be made for leveling it.

The factions also will not force players to choose which school they can do. A Lunus can be a healer and a Helian can be a warrior, but their basic advantages will still remain, that way players will still have to pick a faction and can remain true to the lore. In that case after picking their faction they should immediately have to choose a school. Again players and vets that already did their rite of passage can also have the choice of changing their faction, since once again it's a way life. I'm pretty sure a Helian some where down the line may change their mind about nakas, so it's not majorly lore breaking either.

Mastering in a certain school can determine your abilities and survivability in certain situations. For example a level 100 'warrior' dragon may be able to kick some serious *** in the eastern deadlands as in they can take on multiple enemies at once with their increased health and defence, while a dragon adventurer may not even be able to survive for very long there, where as a caster may only be able to pick them off one by one from a distance with less health and defence but have major spell damage and slightly better healing spells than in dragon adventurer. Maybe something like a healer dragon school may be able to last way longer in a fight and could be highly dependant on for keeping a group of players alive. Meanwhile their spell damage could be slightly higher than in dragon adventure but their healing abilities are very powerful. And if these ideas are considered then PLEASE for the love of all things good in the world, when changing back to a special school or to dragon adventurer, the way your abilities were set up in the hotkey bars for that school should STAY how they were, or else there will be tears of agony raining from the skies as all dragons start flying their way out of Istaria.

Anyway... yes this was long but I legitimately want to help. I really enjoy Istaria and honestly hope to see it become a great game in the future, maybe not the best, but enough to be considered a game that crawled out from the dead and managed the near impossible.

[Pryzm]

When you're playing a game where you can be a dragon, then why play a biped at all? I believe for the majority it's because there's so much diversity in what you can BE as a biped than as a dragon. So when playing dragons becomes boring, then you lose that main draw to the game, and since bipeds don't have anything special for them (mounts could be an example) then they eventually get boring too and the player leaves. I know Virtrium is a small team and I can't even begin to express how much I love you guys for not giving up with Istaria, but I personally think we do in fact need to be more worried about making players STAY than to draw a bigger crowd. When we have players that stay because the game is fun, then the amount of new ones we get will increase as they encourage friends or others to join it, so really that's two birds with one stone.

Eventually it may get to the point where we'll HAVE to preform some risks to keep the game alive. So what if dragons become a bit more like bipeds in the sense of multiple schools? That's what keeps the players occupied, they want to try out all the combinations, all the new and unique things you can do and be. Adding crystal shaping was successful, so if something works then why not keep doing it? You don't necessarily have to make massive changes to the story or lore, something as simple as a collection system can do wonders. Human beings pride themselves on accomplishment, something like a collection system can keep players occupied and entertained for years. Titles are cool and all but just that? I'm sure people like to have other shiny new things to own with those as well. I also know I'm starting to get off topic, but as I mentioned before things like mounts or even a mass of cosmetics to collect, rare items to get, things that can make your character even more unique and special looking can do a whole lot just as they are. Even little things could work, perhaps dragons could have an option for their lairs to adorn gold and gems, maybe scattered into the walls of the lair or maybe just in piles depending on the size of their actual hoard. Just small things like that can work pretty well.

Wow your post really made me think. Someone told me a while ago in the alpha version or so the dragons had several schools and really... i found the lvl up animation for a dragon healer school! But they got all wraped together for the beta for a reason idk. Anyway you are right. Some new content might bring the players to stay. But the problem is as you said the team is small and the game is big. I would like to help but all i can provide is videoediting. But i plan on taking a curse for animation films. I might then go ahead and make animations about istaria wich would possibly bring new players in. Now how to make em stay?

When it comes to new dragon schools, perhaps changing existing ones may work, perhaps it won't. I personally think just adding new schools to choose from can help, but keep dragon adventurer. Now before you say that's a bunch of nonsense, let me explain what I think may work.

No that`s actually no nonsense. Your idear is pretty good and the developers should read them. I just tink the problem is that the team is a bit small. And i`m sure they already have alot work. Though keep that idear i find it pretty exciting. Though for a special spellcaster school it would need more new spells made for dragons or maybe some of the ped spells changing into primal forms. For my part i would love to have a healer school. I already found the proof that it already existed XD. Sorry for getting a bit off topic also. Though your hoard idear brought me another one. Maybe a new chamber called "Hoard where you can add or remove hoard from your equipment window. As you add hoard it grows and if you take away it shriks hehe. Would be an idear. I heared from a friend the game has a bit more potential as its used til now. I still refues giving up hope for the eastern continent but as mentioned twice the team is small and theres much work to do. Though keep that idear of yours. I like it. Sorry for getting off topic :D.

[meepsa]

But they got all wraped together for the beta for a reason idk

Pretty sure it was changed to make dragons more unique instead of "Biped 2.0", the classes were copy-paste of the biped schools, no single bit that was unique, just, bland, bipeds in scales with wings.

I could be horribly mistaken though (my memory is a little shoddy at times), but I'm pretty sure that this is what happened.

Also, this thread necros harder than the Withered Aegis.

[Pryzm]

Hm yeah that sounds possible. Makes sense. But now that the crystalshaper got added i`m in hope more gets added also. Kraurim`s suggestions sound pretty cool. But i say let the developers take their time. I think their a bit busy atm hehe.

[ArchDemon]

Pretty sure it was changed to make dragons more unique instead of "Biped 2.0", the classes were copy-paste of the biped schools, no single bit that was unique, just, bland, bipeds in scales with wings.

I could be horribly mistaken though (my memory is a little shoddy at times), but I'm pretty sure that this is what happened.

Also, this thread necros harder than the Withered Aegis.

Its not a necro when its the hottest topic of the list of topics.

[Kaerisk]

I encourage people to check out my suggestions starting around page 3 and going well into page 4, on the concept of dragon Vocations (differentiating them from schools, but functionally similar). I tried to add in all of the functional (player side) details needed for each class, descriptions as to where they fit into the lore, and I even have links to the quest text to unlock each of the schools, as unlocking schools is another way of differentiating and fit dragon play experience well. Essentially, I did everything short of programming them into the game myself ;p simply not in my power.

I'd love some feedback on those, as very few people gave any thoughts or response to it. Probably because it was astronomically long, but it was very detailed. I know the changes described would take awhile to implement and aren't high on the agenda of things to do for the game, but it would be good to have a rallying point to work from in regards to dragon choice and dragons going forward.

[AmonGwareth]

Thought of a way this might work. Create new schools, make them for Ancients only, require level 100 Adventurer, and then tie new abilities by keyword and recycle timer to existing quested abilities where appropriate. That would let you gain new abilities while taking care (potentially) of existing abilities that are of concern (namely the quested ones).

[Romirez]

I have to agree with Calyndrell and Vahrokh here. You can not tell older players to just start a new character and be happy with that. This game is dependent on veteran players as we do not have the luxury of new players sticking around at this time to make up for any backlash by telling older players they'll have to make all new characters that they've been attached to for years (or in some cases its their avatar or fursona.)

While I do agree that old items and abilities should be brought back, I strongly disagree with being forced to start a new character to do so. The reasons are not just about new players being given the option to acquire them, but older players who were around during that time and had no chance of getting the items or abilities because they couldn't partake of the events/quests those items were in (too small a guild, not end-game, could not get a group, etc.)

I'll probably get a feedback post together later on the schools themselves when I've a little more time to sit down and read and think on what is presented, now that my health is a little bit better so that I'm more up to it.

i agree with arzel here, i have invested 10 years into Romirez, i cannot easily replace what i have got and invested into him, let alone the backstory and RP side of all he's gone through. i can write at least one novel of what i've played through in the game. telling me to start a new dragon to see the new schools will be a bit daunting, i have two hatchlings that have yet to get above level 40.

that being said, the quote was in 2014. what i heard from Amon in skype is that this is still moving forward, and i really am eager to specialize into another class. i'm currently working Romi to be a walking tank. the current school has some flexibility to let me do that, but a subclass or prestige class would be awesome.

Thought of a way this might work. Create new schools, make them for Ancients only, require level 100 Adventurer, and then tie new abilities by keyword and recycle timer to existing quested abilities where appropriate. That would let you gain new abilities while taking care (potentially) of existing abilities that are of concern (namely the quested ones).

whenever the bipeds change classes, abilities get greyed out depending on school. you could use that same function for the dragons, whatever class they are in, they get new abilities, and the old ones that are not usable get greyed out.

[Racktor]

whenever the bipeds change classes, abilities get greyed out depending on school. you could use that same function for the dragons, whatever class they are in, they get new abilities, and the old ones that are not usable get greyed out.

It isn't just graying out, it's a bit more complex than that! (And I'm not talking to you specifically now Romi, I'm addressing everyone in general now)

Theoretically speaking, we could basically have dragons in an melee school get Gold Rage X, balanced so that it's not super OP but is still stronger than Gold Rage VII. However, you HAVE to be lvl 100 in the 2nd school to use it. If you swap over to Dragon Adventurer, you hit the max of Gold Rage VII again because you haven't mastered VIII, IX, or X. On the flipside, you could join a primal school and get hard burst-damage ranged abilities that are based on your primal skill. However, Gold Rage V is only available. (Mastering an ability requires the ability to be able to be mastered and for you to become twice the level you first received the ability. So Gold Rage V at lvl 50 is the highest you'd have.)

It would open up a hell of a lot of possibilities for new attacks and balancing and specializing. I may have been a grump about new schools before, but now that I've read up on and actually played bipeds, I'm all for it.

(Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting a Gold Rage X actually be added, it's for example's sake only. Amon would roll in his in-game grave if GRX was added. :P)

[Guaran]

Thought of a way this might work. Create new schools, make them for Ancients only, require level 100 Adventurer, and then tie new abilities by keyword and recycle timer to existing quested abilities where appropriate. That would let you gain new abilities while taking care (potentially) of existing abilities that are of concern (namely the quested ones).

Would love to hear more about this, fleshed out some.

So if it means new abilities that essentially "replace" or share 100% timers with say Gold Rage, Silver Strike, Ravage, would these be spell abilities? I posted some ideas about that in post 122. There could be room for a couple new melee abilities as well.

Can you give us a list of all the proposed new abilities, and what they would link with? Would like more information on the new schools. I am guessing there would be 2 new schools, Primalist and Conqueror?

Just as long as the new schools are not tied to Factions :)

[Sindala]

Can you give us a list of all the proposed new abilities, and what they would link with? Would like more information on the new schools. I am guessing there would be 2 new schools, Primalist and Conqueror?

3 new schools, Primalist, Conqueror and Plague!. :D

[Kaerisk]

No plague. ;p

If I am understanding Amon's thought here, it would mean that Gold Rage, for instance, might be tied to a new ability, say Gold Burst. Using one would put the other on the same (or higher?) recycle, meaning that we could use both, but we'd have to choose which one we would want to use - GR might be better for damage, but Burst might have other uses (damage at range, healing through drainbolt, etc).

The 100 idea is what I suggested, but I still would prefer non-ancient. Won't kill me, I suppose. But if I am understanding the changes correctly, my old Vocations could be easily adapted, though a few abilities would need to be buffed in order to compete with GR, etc. Wouldn't even necessarily have to do any changes at all to the current dragon class. Worth looking into.

[Alisto]

Speaking of plague, though, I would love to see damage-over-time and heal-over-time focused schools. I think that a focus on HoTs could easily be a dragon healing school.

Edit: Almost forgot the usual yadda yadda, I second Maekrux, please no ancient only. Just in case anyone forgot >:D

[Litarath]

Thought of a way this might work. Create new schools, make them for Ancients only, require level 100 Adventurer, and then tie new abilities by keyword and recycle timer to existing quested abilities where appropriate. That would let you gain new abilities while taking care (potentially) of existing abilities that are of concern (namely the quested ones).

How about this instead... and I'm going to literally just change a few words from you.

Create new schools, make them for ALL dragons, require level 100 ADV and at least one level 100 in Craft in the case of a hatchling.

Let hatchlings have a little love, Ancients and Adults shouldn't get all the good bits... some good bits, yes, but not ALL.

[Pryzm]

You brought me to the idear of a school especially for 100/100/100/100 hatchlings. Stay neutral and go your own way! Why following a faction? Do you have to choose one to get the benefit of growing up? If the eastern continent gets ever added i`d love to see a neutral faction of dragons <3. Just because the timeline is finished so far doesn`t mean that there can`t happen great changes in istory again :). I wouldn`t know what stats the neutral factions would get. But i guess there are actually neutral dragons atm. I dunno about Karane but as a Lore-Keeper i can imagine you should stay neutral. Just because she`s close to chic doesn`t have to say something. Also the Council doesn`t seem to have a faction. And what about these dragons that went throught the Gate of Embers with Drulkar? If one comes back you have a factionless adult/ancient.

[Sindala]

I have to say i'd be against the idea of Hatchies getting new schools.
The Hatchling is the Basic school for Dragons, just like with Bi-peds you can stay basic or you can grow and join the Prestige schools.
If you want to stay Hatchie forever then that's fine but you forfeit the benefits.
(I should point out I have an eternal hatchie too, so its not like I'm biased)

[Tilithia]

Ancient is like another step for dragon therefore extending cap and schools for ancient only makes sense.
To those who like to stay hatchies,theres one more solution. make another charater. it doesn't take very long to get to 100.