Ground Speed and Roads

[Galdethriel]

Roads confuse me.

Usually in other MMOs, they serve to link settlements and guide players as well as show you, essentially, the path to take where you're least likely to be assaulted by monsters. HZ is the only game I've ever played (though more may be out there) where the roads also boost speed. This is both a good and a bad thing, in my opinion.

Without speed boosts you get later on (assuming an established player isn't feeding you speed boost methods from day one), when moving off a road you move at an absolute crawl. As a hatchling in particular, it often feels to me like on a road is a normal speed to move at and moving off the path is a debuffed speed. I'm not sure if it also feels this way for bipeds, due to their smaller size.

I think the speed boost should be removed from roads and granted as a passive ground speed boost across the board. As it is now, all it feels like it achieves is to discourage exploration. Besides letting travellers take more direct routes, this won't have an adverse effect on overall speed either (for bipeds who stack speed buffs and sprint, for example), but it will let you go off the beaten path.

[Cegaiel]

Its been like this as long as I can remember. Unless I'm just stuck in the old days, I like it the way it is.

The only other MMO that I've ever tried that has road bonus (ATITD) does it in a different way. Theres no techs for +Speed per-say but can earn speed, dex, str, etc other ways. On that game you get road bonus regardless. The higher the speed you have, the faster the road bonus. To run a tad quicker offroad (grass,etc) Dex gives a bonus to offroad speed. That's not likely to get implemented, but hey, tossing that idea out there.

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And speaking of road bonuses, can we get that added to the road from the bridge on Isle of Ice to the Expedition Camp? The road on the southern edge of Isle of Ice (that runs west and east). Lots of nasty wolves on there, that road bonus could help a less than level 100 player, get to expedition camp to attune.

[Pharaxes]

Walking along solid ground is of course faster than for example on a sandy beach. So I would say the speed bonus is correct there

[Galdethriel]

Its been like this as long as I can remember. Unless I'm just stuck in the old days, I like it the way it is.

The only other MMO that I've ever tried that has road bonus (ATITD) does it in a different way. Theres no techs for +Speed per-say but can earn speed, dex, str, etc other ways. On that game you get road bonus regardless. The higher the speed you have, the faster the road bonus. To run a tad quicker offroad (grass,etc) Dex gives a bonus to offroad speed. That's not likely to get implemented, but hey, tossing that idea out there.

I think just making the road bonus permanent would be a simpler solution. I can't imagine it would take much tweaking on the dev's part.

Walking along solid ground is of course faster than for example on a sandy beach. So I would say the speed bonus is correct there

Logic isn't as important as fun. I don't know about you, but being punished with an incredibly slow run speed for leaving the path is not fun for me. It's actually very frustrating. And what does it achieve, really?

[Tzael]

And speaking of road bonuses, can we get that added to the road from the bridge on Isle of Ice to the Expedition Camp? The road on the southern edge of Isle of Ice (that runs west and east). Lots of nasty wolves on there, that road bonus could help a less than level 100 player, get to expedition camp to attune.

The road bonus is still there on the Island of Ice, except it follows the old road layout

[Tzael]

Logic isn't as important as fun. I don't know about you, but being punished with an incredibly slow run speed for leaving the path is not fun for me. It's actually very frustrating. And what does it achieve, really?

You could look at this from a completely different perspective - imagine that you'd played this game and never encountered a road up until now. You'd be completely accustomed to the default speed, you might have a few buffs and techs/crystals to increase your speed but overall the default speed would be what you generally expect for movement. Then you encounter a road for the first time, and all of a sudden it feels like a tinkerer strapped a couple of astounding fireworks to your sides and you're rocketing along at an insane speed compared to normal!

I put it to you that you only think the speed for off-road travel is slow because you are accustomed to the higher speeds available when travelling by road. Were roads less common in Istaria than they actually are, players in general would not be used to receiving the road bonus so frequently.

Food for thought

[Galdethriel]

You could look at this from a completely different perspective - imagine that you'd played this game and never encountered a road up until now. You'd be completely accustomed to the default speed, you might have a few buffs and techs/crystals to increase your speed but overall the default speed would be what you generally expect for movement. Then you encounter a road for the first time, and all of a sudden it feels like a tinkerer strapped a couple of astounding fireworks to your sides and you're rocketing along at an insane speed compared to normal!

I put it to you that you only think the speed for off-road travel is slow because you are accustomed to the higher speeds available when travelling by road. Were roads less common in Istaria than they actually are, players in general would not be used to receiving the road bonus so frequently.

Food for thought

I can understand what you're saying here. However I'd still argue the point because of exactly how slow HZ off road speed actually is - it feels like a rock could outrun you. In World of Warcraft I can go from 410% my normal speed to average running speed without buffs and though I'm aware I'm going slower, it's never so slow as to feel frustrating. In HZ, average sized character models visibly run in slow motion when off the road. Dragon animations are slower again.

To compound the problem, HZ is terrible for forcing the player to tackle one quest at a time running back and forth countless times over long, empty tracts of land. This is a turn off for new players. The fact that you move at a snail's pace just makes this design flaw worse again.

TL : DR - Slow is not fun. Fast is fun. Path speed looks like normal speed. Off path is slow motion. Slow/not fun puts off new players.

[Pharaxes]

I can understand what you're saying here. However I'd still argue the point because of exactly how slow HZ off road speed actually is - it feels like a rock could outrun you. In World of Warcraft I can go from 410% my normal speed to average running speed without buffs and though I'm aware I'm going slower, it's never so slow as to feel frustrating. In HZ, average sized character models visibly run in slow motion when off the road. Dragon animations are slower again.

To compound the problem, HZ is terrible for forcing the player to tackle one quest at a time running back and forth countless times over long, empty tracts of land. This is a turn off for new players. The fact that you move at a snail's pace just makes this design flaw worse again.

TL : DR - Slow is not fun. Fast is fun. Path speed looks like normal speed. Off path is slow motion. Slow/not fun puts off new players.

First: grats to your 500th post

Second: Istaria is not WoW and never will be (luckily)

The changes you want to happen would mean the devs need to increase the base speed of just everyone in Istaria. Because the base speed is what affected from the road bonus (which gives I think +15 Speed). I'm sure if you would convert the speed value from Istaria into meters per second or miles per hour it wouldn't be thiiis slow

[Galdethriel]

First: grats to your 500th post

Second: Istaria is not WoW and never will be (luckily)

The changes you want to happen would mean the devs need to increase the base speed of just everyone in Istaria. Because the base speed is what affected from the road bonus (which gives I think +15 Speed). I'm sure if you would convert the speed value from Istaria into meters per second or miles per hour it wouldn't be thiiis slow

Firstly, thanks! I didn't even notice.

Secondly, WoW is massively successful for a reason - it's fun. Taking some pages from WoW's book would be a good thing for Istaria.

Thirdly, this is irrelevant. The point still stands that HZ makes you run very slowly over long tracts of empty land over and over and over again. This is boring and not fun. To increase the speed is a quality of life improvement to the game and will be one step towards making it more accessible to new players and encourage exploration.

[Korchak Strongbone]

I run at around 146 on road and 121 off road, thats not that bad. The only thing that sort of bothers me is that my disk limits my speed to 100 no matter what. 50 is your base speed so all you need is some speed wings, a movement crystal and your set. :-) There is nothing confusing about the road bonus of +25, stay on it and you run faster. Let's just be happy they don't just change the game to make it easier, then what fun could we have trying to figure out how to make it better for ourselves. I for one enjoy thinking and please do not hand me anything on a silver platter. There are many options in the game to increase speed, the road is just one, figure it out or ask for help. When I was a small player running slowly and saw a high level player whip past me it excited me to think that one day I could reach that level. It was inspiration to me.

[meepsa]

I run at around 146 on road and 121 off road, thats not that bad. The only thing that sort of bothers me is that my disk limits my speed to 100 no matter what. 50 is your base speed so all you need is some speed wings, a movement crystal and your set. :-) There is nothing confusing about the road bonus of +25, stay on it and you run faster. Let's just be happy they don't just change the game to make it easier, then what fun could we have trying to figure out how to make it better for ourselves. I for one enjoy thinking and please do not hand me anything on a silver platter. There are many options in the game to increase speed, the road is just one, figure it out or ask for help. When I was a small player running slowly and saw a high level player whip past me it excited me to think that one day I could reach that level. It was inspiration to me.

Couldn't have said it better.
Offroad speed is not slow, it feels natural, even for the bigger models. Or at the very least to me. And if you find it slow, there's plenty of ways to increase your speed (quickstep pots, abilities, techs), honestly, all this "istaria needs to be easier on newbies" talk is bonkers.

[Galdethriel]

I run at around 146 on road and 121 off road, thats not that bad. The only thing that sort of bothers me is that my disk limits my speed to 100 no matter what. 50 is your base speed so all you need is some speed wings, a movement crystal and your set. :-) There is nothing confusing about the road bonus of +25, stay on it and you run faster. Let's just be happy they don't just change the game to make it easier, then what fun could we have trying to figure out how to make it better for ourselves. I for one enjoy thinking and please do not hand me anything on a silver platter. There are many options in the game to increase speed, the road is just one, figure it out or ask for help. When I was a small player running slowly and saw a high level player whip past me it excited me to think that one day I could reach that level. It was inspiration to me.

I fully support making the game easier. Leave challenge in the battle, not in the movement. Your average new player isn't going to accept 'hey, this game is slow and grindy, but if you work hard you'll find ways around it!'. They want a fun game from day one.

And part of my point was to get people OFF the roads.

[Galdethriel]

Couldn't have said it better.
Offroad speed is not slow, it feels natural, even for the bigger models. Or at the very least to me. And if you find it slow, there's plenty of ways to increase your speed (quickstep pots, abilities, techs), honestly, all this "istaria needs to be easier on newbies" talk is bonkers.

Newbies. Pah, who needs 'em? We don't want the game to be accessible to newbies. We want it to just stay how it is forever, in beautiful perfect stagnation.

Straight-up ease isn't the issue here. Being faster off road isn't increasing the easiness of the game, but it is increasing easiness of accessibility through combating the grind. And as for the bigger models... I didn't even bother to address them because they're doomed to look ridiculous for all of time. All hail /setscale! XD

[Korchak Strongbone]

I fully support making the game more challanging. Bring back alloys, make the bloodskulks strong again. Let's make SOG unstunable or rotate his abilities again...Can we get valkor and Faffy Dev attacks on bristugo again? Perhaps the named level 20 skeletons spawning in KION or Dalimond ooooh!

[Galdethriel]

I fully support making the game more challanging. Bring back alloys, make the bloodskulks strong again. Let's make SOG unstunable or rotate his abilities again...Can we get valkor and Faffy Dev attacks on bristugo again? Perhaps the named level 20 skeletons spawning in KION or Dalimond ooooh!

Please try to keep the thread on-topic, Kor. I don't want it to get derailed.

[Cilok]

I rather like the speed boost on roads only, and this is coming from a player that's been here for only a year-ish. The off-road speed isn't as excruciatingly slow as you are making it out to be (sure its slower, but it kind of makes sense traveling "off the beaten path"). The purpose of roads, both in game and in real life, is to increase your speed between point A and B, almost always towns/cities. That is the sole purpose of the roads and the speed boost, going off of it into less-traveled areas would obviously be slower, not just from lack of use but also from moving more carefully knowing there are most likely hostile creatures that want to eat you (or turn you into a member of the WA).

[Pharaxes]

Secondly, WoW is massively successful for a reason - it's fun. Taking some pages from WoW's book would be a good thing for Istaria.

it's probably also successful because they gather millions of dollar each month and can afford much more developers for bringing in new content, game mechanics, textures, etc. etc.

I dunno about any true numbers, but writing this I would think even gathering 1 million is difficult. Would the average player pay $12.45 each month, it would Istaria take 80,321 active subscriptions to gather a million in one month. I would believe that it hasn't had this many since beginning of the game (just a guess, no offense!)

[Galdethriel]

I rather like the speed boost on roads only, and this is coming from a player that's been here for only a year-ish. The off-road speed isn't as excruciatingly slow as you are making it out to be (sure its slower, but it kind of makes sense traveling "off the beaten path"). The purpose of roads, both in game and in real life, is to increase your speed between point A and B, almost always towns/cities. That is the sole purpose of the roads and the speed boost, going off of it into less-traveled areas would obviously be slower, not just from lack of use but also from moving more carefully knowing there are most likely hostile creatures that want to eat you (or turn you into a member of the WA).

Logically, you're right of course, but for a game I'd still argue that it is very, very slow and frustrating. I'm honestly surprised I seem to be the only person playing who thinks so, but fair enough. Maybe if we fix the god awful quests, it won't be so bad. But I think that's a discussion for a different thread.

it's probably also successful because they gather millions of dollar each month and can afford much more developers for bringing in new content, game mechanics, textures, etc. etc.

They get money from subscriptions. Subscriptions come from players. And the players are there because they enjoy the game. WoW was expected to have a very humble playerbase at launch; it's popularity likely arose because it reduced the waiting times typical in MMOs and was very accessible. This accessibility is what I think HZ should aspire to. It does not have to become WoW 2.0 to do that; it basically just has to minimise what is boring about the game. Running for long periods of time is boring. Running slowly for long periods of time is really boring.

But that's just my opinion. There are lots of other problems that could be addressed to make the game more accessible and less boring. If speed isn't a problem for anyone but me and a few others who aren't playing at the minute, then I'll not beat a dead horse.

[Azath]

Is speed a problem? hmmm

To begin with, at the very start...no. when i first joined istaria, the only thing that helped me figure out where to go was the path and the familiar cadence of speech. That speed bonus enocourages players to go on the path, which for new players is a good thing, because you don't really know where to go and there's little to do off the paths anyways and they lead new players.

When you leave Lesser Aradoth, that's when paths start becoming a little more annoying, and when interesting stuff actually exists off the paths. But i'll get back to that later.

Nearer the end of the game, they aren't an issue either. You know where to go and have speed bonuses and the speed difference isn't that drastic when you go off the paths.

So where's the issue...off lesser aradoth, when you're still adjusting to the game (because let's face it - lesser aradoth is no comparison at all to dali peninsula. Lesser aradoth you can usuallly use a path, dali peninsula you sometimes run through a path, die, then need to use the map to figure out an off road detour) and have no major speed bonuses (because +4 speed seems like nothing at all unless you're running alongside someone).

Would giving a general bonus for everyone do it? (or to contrast, removing the bonus completely?)

Hmm...it would give less encouragement to go on paths, but that can be worked around because a path is just a texture, the road bonus is applied seperately (hense why some paths don't give road bonus - they were forgotten, and some paths have the road bonus beside them instead of on them - misplaced) so that can be worked around, but unless it was applied to all paths it would feel odd suddenly that all paths except on NT/training isle/skalkaar have no bonus. It's either an all paths or nothing situation.

Giving a bonus to all people...i personnally don't like it (but that's i think just to an individual sitaution; high character speeds combiend with low average fps means the game lags a lot when i go really fast so i try to keep below 120 speed) but i think it would benefit everyone overall. Or..would it? Would it not just become just as slow as 50 speed is (due to people getting used to it?) i mean yes you're moving faster but at some point someones gonna complain that it's slow to move to settlements because that's the speed they're used to. And you can't just keep on ramping up the speed.

Contrarily, would taking away speed bonuses completely resolve it? No. As stated above also, but there's a grander issue with this. It's really hard to obtain useful speed bonuses until about lv40. You're gonna go EVEN SLOWER through the start of the game. So taking them away isn't going to resolve any issues either. It's going to make it worse.

At least with paths as they are, you run at a decent pace through the start of the game because you should be on the path anyway, and it makes up for the lack of decent speed bonuses.

The real issue is, that at low speeds (50), the speed difference feels really drastic offroad an onroad. Until you get speed bonuses, the change in pace is notable. But...i don't think it's as much of a major issue as you're making out.
You either run on the path as you should do, or take a detour. Detours off the road are often pretty long, so you usually adjust to the speed pretty quickly and it doesn't feel all that slow after a couple of minutes.

I often use the road bonus to help, because my dragons can run at 74 speed, hatchies on a path can run at 75 speed, which helps when taking people to places (rop especially). The change in speed actually becomes quite useful, because you don't make the other player feel that slow without speed bonuses, you can keep up with them without having to constantly equip/unequip ietms which boost your speed.

Road bonus helps a lot to lead players to places. It encourages them to stay on paths, and honestly, i think it adds a sense of adventure. If you take a detour off path because mobs are too strong on the path, it becomes more of a major thing. Slower, but detours often are also windier, more scenic, and more sneaky-incognito-avoid-the-mob (e.g. my route to get lv40 and below players to chiconis means running on the edge of a feild of wolves, tracing the edge of crackenspanks tomb, and sprinting past elm treants before angry treants aggro. i think that adventure is more than enough to distract a player from slow speeds)

Personnally, i don't want to lose the good things about speed bonuses because i don't see sufficient evidence that a constant bonus is more beneficial than a road bonus.

[LOVWYRM]

Az-*bows and signs her post*