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Thread: Regarding Buffs

  1. #1
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    Default Regarding Buffs

    Note: This was written by Alisto who cannot currently connect properly to the forums to post. I'm just posting for him.

    First off, forum devs, the preview post button seems to be borked...I keep getting a ERR_CONNECTION_RESET whenever I try. So, apologies for any lack of organization, as I cant really preview what this will look like.

    On to business!

    My suggestion is to - make a certain selection of buffs last until relog, death or manual removal by the player. A couple buffs that would be included: The Gift line, Enhances, Raises, the dragon buffs True Grit, Arcane Refusal/Ignore Mysticism, Promote Vitality and Intellect, Determination, Primal Roar. I'm probably missing some there, but anyway!

    I'll use Primal Roar as my example.

    Currently it lasts for 30 minutes, after which you must reapply it. Nothing more than a minor inconvenience (except that awful post-delay *shakepaw!*) and a couple seconds spend to rebuff. However, that 30minutes that results in a couple seconds used up to recast doesn't necessarily add anything to the game (in my opinion). It's just something you need to recast every so often, and those couple seconds spent doing it could be better served somewhere else. The buff isn't vitally important to being an effective caster, or whatever it is a player would be using it for. A player can fly around without buffs and still be reasonably effective, although they probably won't be very useful in certain specialized roles - I know I depend on my buffs to keep my dragon from being 1-shot at Reklar. Still, I'm reasonably certain it could be done without buffs.

    What I'm getting at is that buffs aren't vital enough that a player should have to recast the buff every x minutes if they want the bonus, especially with just how MANY buffs there are. In the majority of boss fights, my biped spends more time buffing dragons than the fight actually lasts. It doesn't feel like I'm actually playing the game when I have to spend a sizeable chunk of time spamming buff buttons, going "Okay who wants melee and who wants caster/ranged buffs." or "Anyone missing any buffs?". Now, I don't mind doing that at the very beginning, but I really loathe spending that chunk of time for every other hunt done that day, of which there are usually many.

    In some games, buffs serve as a part of the economy - selling food that gives a health buff can make a chunk of coin. Istaria buffs don't serve any such purpose. They're easy to make and easy to acquire if one can't make them.

    Talking about cost. Take dragon scales for example. Tier five scales require a certain time investment and permanently improve the character while worn. Buffs are essentially armor pieces one must re-equip every so often. It costs me a couple seconds every 30 minutes for a 161 attack skill, 250 power and a minuscule damage increase.

    As a side note, while typing this all my dragon buffs but Aclarity and Velocity faded, I'll have to go recast them when I land.

    It's been two years and what buffs I use hasn't changed. There'd be nothing different about my current situation if I'd cast those buffs two years ago and left them there, except that I'd have (let's do some some napkin math!) - one second cast time (approx) per buff. Dragon buffs - I count 9 in use on my dragon's bar right now. I use a total of around 15 or so for each Reklar fight. Say I've done 100 Reklar fights, that's 25 minutes spent purely on buffs if it's just one player, and I routinely have a full group whenever I start big baddie hunt.

    Just timed myself recasting all my dragon buffs, it took 26 seconds.

    So, why am I spending so much time casting buffs?** They serve little purpose, have very little depth to them, and I've found them barely worth the effort to cast to the point where I have a button that goes through them all and auto casts for me. Yes, the macro functionality of the game helps with the issue - however, I think that proves that something is wrong with a feature in a game where it's so boring that someone gets the game to do it for them, and goes to get a snack or something during the wait. It costs the same couple of seconds to cast a useful spell as it does to cast a not-near-as-useful buff, which confuses me.

    **Addressing the existence of those trinket thingies, Infix Fury (to name one), and Aclarity. The trinkets one must either go through combat to get them, or buy some from a vendor at a hefty cost. If i remember correctly, there were actually some complaints about the cost for the 30min trinkets being too high. But, those buffs are -wonderful- and using a couple of them results in a hefty boost to combat effectiveness. Infix Fury gives +15 damage to attacks, which is pretty massive as well and is limited by charges. The beneficial buff is definitely worth the couple seconds to cast, even in the middle of battle. The only buff my dragon can spit out on its own that I consider absolutely vital if Aclarity, and only then because it speeds up combat. WIthout it, combat would be even slower and more boring (speaking as an 18 yr old who enjoys action games )

    In conclusion, pretty please make buffs worth the seconds taken to cast them. There's a ton of depth that can be added. For example: off the top of my head, say each buff changes depending on other buffs active, and casting a buff in the middle of battle will give a temporary additional beneficial effect to the character, or even some sort of attack. ESO Has an ability that increases damage done for 20 seconds, and if the player does 10 attacks within that time, the buff button becomes an attack that shoots an arrow to do a hefty amount of damage. I know that Istaria is limited in its technology, but hopefully there's something that can be done to make casting buffs less of a chore.

    Thanks for reading!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    I have some conflicting feelings over this suggestion. On one hand I would adore not having to re-cast buffs every 15-30 minutes because let's be honest, I'm pretty lazy... but on the other hand, there may actually be a good reason for having to re-cast them and I will get to that.

    It can be quite annoying to have to re-cast buffs, I absolutely agree with that. Do I want to stop what I'm doing just to push a few buttons, even macroed ones? No not really. I'd love to be able to fight nonstop for a good few hours solid... or keep gathering and crafting at optimum the whole day without the obligatory re-casting of buffs.

    However, one reason why you have to re-cast buffs could be to ensure players do actually pay attention while in combat. At level 100, I have zero problems fighting anything up to low-ish t6 mobs entirely un-buffed as long as I'm in combat gear and not craft gear- this is quite true, buffs aren't always necessary. But when fighting significantly higher than your level/rating or in an area where swarms are a real threat then buffs become very important. I certainly remember working my way up to level 100 for the first time and boy did the buffs make a difference- some fights I needed to be buffed even to survive the fight at all and a lot more often, buffs made a big difference in how long it took me to kill the thing, how close I was to dying before it died, and how long I'd have to recover/heal/wait for abilities to become available between fights. Staying buffed then meant shorter fights, less chance of death, and shorter recovery time. And even now, whenever I fight t6 mobs I always buff and always stay buffed to the best of my ability. Could I fight most t6 things without buffs? Probably. Do I want to? Hell no- at a minimum, fights drag out longer than they should and the risk of death goes up.

    Buffs fading might be meant to "punish" those who do not pay enough attention while fighting- you tab out too long, your buffs that are keeping you alive go poof, you die. Enjoy your death point. Might be intended to help prevent afk grinding- you need to be paying at least some attention to re-buff every now and then if you're going to be grinding effectively. Sure it's not a perfect fix but nothing really is for that. There are probably other reasons why they should fade too, just none are coming to mind at the moment and I'm not thinking too hard right now.

    Honestly, I'd really like some feedback from a developer or two about this before I throw my support one way or another.

    Istara's Chosen Guildmaster
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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Now this post is actually my writing, not Alisto's!

    I agree with Alis's idea entirely. Previously, I never really questioned why you had X duration on a buff that only takes a second to cast and has a 5 second recycle. Thinking about it, it's kinda silly. Just takes my attention away from fighting after 15-30 minutes or so to recast my buffs. I really don't see what it adds to the game beyond breaking up something.

    Now, buffs like Armor of the Watcher would have to stay as they are, of course - the ones with short durations and long recycles, usually. But normal ones? Yeah, they can be infinite. Why not, after all?

    In the end though, it's clicking X buttons every Y minutes vs clicking X buttons. Less buttons to click is usually better - just little quality of life things.

    Edit:
    @Machaeon: I didn't really think of AFK grinding. That's a possibility. However, punishing a player for going off and getting dinner or something and coming back isn't really... necessary, I guess? Not paying attention will usually get you killed anyway. I once died from an Enraged Radiant Wisp because I tabbed out for too long without any sounds on.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    I do agree some reorganization is need for buffs.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    I think I'm in favor of keeping a time limit on buffs. I think it helps keep folks more attentive to the game, thus participating more with other players when questions are asked, etc. It's also a reasonable reminder of the need for bio breaks, etc. But then, I've never been quite as die hard on hunts as I've heard "serious" gamers being.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    I think I'm in favor of keeping a time limit on buffs. I think it helps keep folks more attentive to the game, thus participating more with other players when questions are asked, etc. It's also a reasonable reminder of the need for bio breaks, etc. But then, I've never been quite as die hard on hunts as I've heard "serious" gamers being.
    That is so true I cant count how many times I actually hunted till my buffs faded then I went to get meal or biobreak or other things
    I agree with part that buffs could use more depth; atm like others I use only alacrity and velocity pretty much when fighting t5 monsters,t6 usually full buffed but sometimes not that even. sometimes I just ignore determination and primal roar. (but that's because of duration not usefulness. primal attack is even worse,if I remember to use it I cast once though 2 hours usually)


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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    This is a test post

  8. #8

    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Posting for Alisto, directly from him

    I spoke with Machaeon in-game. To clarify, afk grinding = botting. The hotkey commands available in Istaria are expansive enough that a player can have the game play itself for them, and certain buffs do hinder this. However, I'll leave that for the devs to poke more at.

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    I think I'm in favor of keeping a time limit on buffs. I think it helps keep folks more attentive to the game, thus participating more with other players when questions are asked, etc. It's also a reasonable reminder of the need for bio breaks, etc. But then, I've never been quite as die hard on hunts as I've heard "serious" gamers being.
    I don't think that the buff durations should be changed as a result of people's unhealthy habits. I'd hope that everyone takes breaks when they need to, and not when a buff timer tells them to. Not saying that the current durations can't be used in that manner.

    Also, can you further expand on what you mean by buffs helping keep players more attentive? In my personal experience, there's never been a situation where rebuffing has caused me to notice a new player asking a question in a chat or somesuch thing - I'm either playing the game or I'm not. So, I don't quite understand what you mean.
    Denaryr, ancient, 100/100/36/10Fireth, ancient, 100/100/19


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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    The Enhance line of buffs and the Raise line cover the same stats. The Enhance line lasts twice as long as the Raise line, but can only be cast if the character's current school is one of the Mystic ones (learning Augmentation, Life, Blight, Nature or Spirit magic). Eliminating buff timers throws a wrench into this part of the game design; it eliminates one of the reasons to be in a Mystic school (better buffing).

    You see the same kind of thing in Blight; the Lessen line behave like Raises, the Clumsiness and Weakness spells like Enhances.

    I would be fine with having the Gifts last endlessly, but not other buffs.
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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    "In conclusion, pretty please make buffs worth the seconds taken to cast them. There's a ton of depth that can be added. "

    I would like to second this, though. Buffs are the least interesting spells to craft.

    There are few useful techs for buffs, and choosing how to tech spells is part of the fun. Add some techs to the buff lines! Suggestions: added effects (boosting evasion, magic evasion, block, dodge, or parry), extended duration, brief speed or attack speed boost, brief appropriate resist/ward boost (melee damage for str/dex, mind/blight/nature for power/focus).
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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Daulnay View Post
    The Enhance line of buffs and the Raise line cover the same stats. The Enhance line lasts twice as long as the Raise line, but can only be cast if the character's current school is one of the Mystic ones (learning Augmentation, Life, Blight, Nature or Spirit magic). Eliminating buff timers throws a wrench into this part of the game design; it eliminates one of the reasons to be in a Mystic school (better buffing).

    You see the same kind of thing in Blight; the Lessen line behave like Raises, the Clumsiness and Weakness spells like Enhances.

    I would be fine with having the Gifts last endlessly, but not other buffs.
    I think Alisto didn't mean buffs that have a reason to last X amount of time, but rather buffs like Gifts (as you mentioned) and dragon buffs like True Grit or Promote Vitality. I'm not very good at remembering any biped buffs, but damage conversion could also probably last forever - not sure if there's any bonuses to one school or another casting that.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    I think that anything going into a gift slot should last 2 hours. So Primal Roar, Determination, should be changed from 30 minutes to 2 hours imho. That will standardize everything going in there.

    As far as the rest of the buffs, they are pretty much fine as is. My only suggestion would be to change armor of the watcher to be a passive. No need to activate it over and over.

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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    I think that anything going into a gift slot should last 2 hours. So Primal Roar, Determination, should be changed from 30 minutes to 2 hours imho. That will standardize everything going in there.

    As far as the rest of the buffs, they are pretty much fine as is. My only suggestion would be to change armor of the watcher to be a passive. No need to activate it over and over.
    Don't forget about Antolathes' Gift that should be passive as well.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by silverth View Post
    I don't think that the buff durations should be changed as a result of people's unhealthy habits. I'd hope that everyone takes breaks when they need to, and not when a buff timer tells them to. Not saying that the current durations can't be used in that manner.

    Also, can you further expand on what you mean by buffs helping keep players more attentive? In my personal experience, there's never been a situation where rebuffing has caused me to notice a new player asking a question in a chat or somesuch thing - I'm either playing the game or I'm not. So, I don't quite understand what you mean.
    *shrugs* Not everyone's bio needs run the same. It feels awkward to request a break when the folks you are with are intensely hunting, running from group of mobs to group of mobs, barely taking time to loot (healing between seems optional) before moving on. Usually we all buffed at the same time, at the start. When everyone's buffs run out at about the same time, it becomes a natural breaking point.

    In those same intense hunts, if you do not pay attention to the battle, it can quickly turn into TPK. Looking at a chat and taking time to type a response could mean missing a critical intervention during the fight. Again, breaks to buff are a chance to look at & respond to chats without endangering the hunt.

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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    *shrugs* Not everyone's bio needs run the same. It feels awkward to request a break when the folks you are with are intensely hunting, running from group of mobs to group of mobs, barely taking time to loot (healing between seems optional) before moving on. Usually we all buffed at the same time, at the start. When everyone's buffs run out at about the same time, it becomes a natural breaking point.

    In those same intense hunts, if you do not pay attention to the battle, it can quickly turn into TPK. Looking at a chat and taking time to type a response could mean missing a critical intervention during the fight. Again, breaks to buff are a chance to look at & respond to chats without endangering the hunt.
    Makes sense - there are some games that pop up a reminder when you've been playing for 'x' amount of time, perhaps something like that can be implemented to free up buff durations. A simple in-game timer would suffice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    I think that anything going into a gift slot should last 2 hours. So Primal Roar, Determination, should be changed from 30 minutes to 2 hours imho. That will standardize everything going in there.

    As far as the rest of the buffs, they are pretty much fine as is. My only suggestion would be to change armor of the watcher to be a passive. No need to activate it over and over.
    Would you please explain why you think that this is the better option?

    This is primarily a test post to see if the forum likes me now, but...figured a couple replies would work as well >.>

    Edit: Yay, it worked! Test to see if edits work.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    I fully agree G! IF it goes into a gift slot - it should last the 2h that gifts do. If it is a buff... return it to the buff line and leave the slot open for other gifts.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Alisto View Post
    ...Would you please explain why you think that this is the better option?...
    You'll need to be more specific about which part of the suggestion you are asking about...

    Gifts last 2 hours. It simply makes sense that anything considered a "Gift" should all follow the same rules.

    The enhances etc are fine as is. If you want them to last longer, I'm fine with that as well.

    Armor of the watcher is rather short lived. And not even a huge buff. Same for Antothales Gift. Small little buffs from T2 quests. Making them passive makes them more useful. No one will use antothales gift much past t2 or t3, because it takes a gift slot and doesn't stack with other gifts. Armor of the watcher is a short buff, what 5 minutes? But has 2 minute recycle? So its just a button I have to remember to mash at least once every 5 minutes. Makes more sense to me, to eliminate the button pushing on it altogether.

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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    You'll need to be more specific about which part of the suggestion you are asking about...

    Gifts last 2 hours. It simply makes sense that anything considered a "Gift" should all follow the same rules.

    The enhances etc are fine as is. If you want them to last longer, I'm fine with that as well.

    Armor of the watcher is rather short lived. And not even a huge buff. Same for Antothales Gift. Small little buffs from T2 quests. Making them passive makes them more useful. No one will use antothales gift much past t2 or t3, because it takes a gift slot and doesn't stack with other gifts. Armor of the watcher is a short buff, what 5 minutes? But has 2 minute recycle? So its just a button I have to remember to mash at least once every 5 minutes. Makes more sense to me, to eliminate the button pushing on it altogether.
    Guaran, Antothales Gift no longer takes a gift slot, that was changed deltas ago.

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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Guaran, I believe that Alisto might be asking your reasons as to why you seem to be against making the other buffs such as Promote Vitality and such last longer - the ones that are, as you say, remembering to just mash the button every so often. He doesn't mean making them all passives, but rather you cast and they last forever. (You probably didn't misread that, but clarifying just in case)

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    Default Re: Regarding Buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    You'll need to be more specific about which part of the suggestion you are asking about...

    The entire suggestion :P

    Gifts last 2 hours. It simply makes sense that anything considered a "Gift" should all follow the same rules.

    What I was getting at is, 'why'? Why 2 hours? It's only 2 hours because the person in charge of that decision thought that was a good duration. I've suggested what I think in the OP is a better duration, and was hoping for discussion on the topic - hence the thread.

    The enhances etc are fine as is. If you want them to last longer, I'm fine with that as well.
    Same here, is <x> duration better than <y> duration?

    Armor of the watcher is rather short lived. And not even a huge buff. Same for Antothales Gift. Small little buffs from T2 quests. Making them passive makes them more useful. No one will use antothales gift much past t2 or t3, because it takes a gift slot and doesn't stack with other gifts. Armor of the watcher is a short buff, what 5 minutes? But has 2 minute recycle? So its just a button I have to remember to mash at least once every 5 minutes. Makes more sense to me, to eliminate the button pushing on it altogether.This is the kind of more 'here's why I think this' paragraph I was hoping for, except concerning Gifts, Enhances, etc.
    but rather you cast and they last forever. (You probably didn't misread that, but clarifying just in case)
    This is correct.

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