this horse is not dead

[LOVWYRM]

In light of recent events-
pls lets collect some ideas here, what it needs to make new players stay
and enjoy the start into our game.
The input of vet players as well input from new(er) players is much appreciated.
Pls lets try to make only suggestions that use resources that are already ingame (more or less^^)
Let me start with:

- give double xp for quests (until lvl.40)
- or double xp at all (until level 40)
- give a heal or combat bot(or any other pet- but stronger than the bots we have) (until level 30)
- let craft npcs explain which mob to hunt and where -to find techs and crystals
- make sure new players know about exsiting quest-lines (forest-skulk/tomb quests e.g)

thats for now from my side.

pls add anything you can think of-thank you

[Racktor]

- give a heal or combat bot(or any other pet- but stronger than the bots we have) (until level 30)

Wouldn't see why this wouldn't be possible as a questline, unless you literally mean hand out a better bot that disappears at lvl 30

- let craft npcs explain which mob to hunt and where -to find techs and crystals

Perhaps not specifically where, but a general area. I.e. "Gloom Wolves lie in the forest west of Morning Light, but if you've hit the ogres, you've gone too far." Especially techs, forms, and crystals, though - "Looking for some more advanced formulas? Eh, I can't sell them, they're too hard to acquire. Those you have to find out on your own; I've heard the harder guys in each tier tend to be hanging on to those finicky forms... the intelligent guys, only, though! No golems carrying a scroll, that's ridiculous. Look for ogres and pygmies - the 'kuk. The undead, too." etc etc

- make sure new players know about exsiting quest-lines (forest-skulk/tomb quests e.g)

While the specific quest you mentioned starts kind of out of the way, honestly it's rather... hard, I guess, to have these pointed out to you. What do you want to be done, exactly? Someone who wants to do all the quests will run around looking for the ? on their map or above NPC heads. Those who don't will purposefully ignore them. I'm not trying to be rude or sarcastic, I just don't know what you're looking for. Perhaps showing markers, even when NPCs aren't in your immediate area, if that's even possible with istaria's tech?

- give double xp for quests (until lvl.40)
- or double xp at all (until level 40)

While, yes, giving double exp is a very dead horse, why only until level 40? Level 0-40 have the most quests of any part of the game excluding T6. Meepsa had leveled an alt to 25 or something off of just tier one quests. That is not including tombs or anything from the Dalimond Peninsula. 0-40 are the absolute easiest levels you can aquire and, since you're thinking of newbies here, this is also the first run around; the first school you level. 0-40 is exceptionally easy compared to 41-100.
Furthermore, if you double the EXP just for that tier, it's highly misleading as to what you're going to get from the rest of the tiers. Luring someone into a false sense of security and then hitting them with a harsher grind just because they hit T3 is not the best idea. At least if they see a grind early, they will understand that the game isn't going to hand your levels to you, and will make a decision there. If you just put it off, they will just leave later. Those who hate grind won't grind, period. No matter how much they have invested in their character.

Now I wouldn't mind getting the T1-T2 trophy EXP doubled, those feel rather pitiful compared to T3 and T5. T4 also feels a bit lacking in some areas, barely getting me 1/10 of my level per turn-in at the highest rate. I also wouldn't mind a general 1.2 or 1.3x boost to EXP overall, just not doubling it. When I was doing my ability quests on my dragon at double exp time, his lvl 25 ability quests + trophies got him to lvl 33... and I wasn't even done.

I'd also like to inquire.. what do you mean by 'recent events'? The most 'recent events' I have seen on Order pertaining to new players is that there's more than usual. The group I tend to be in always invites new players if we see them to help them learn the game and give them a community to look up to. I haven't seen a newbie leave because of grind, recently; only because there is a lack of RP, which is a community rather than a game problem.

I'm not going to ignore that Istaria has a lot of grind in it and it's definitely an issue, but a lot of its grind is due to a lack of quests in T3, T4, and T5 (and for the last I could just be blind or mixing up t5 with t6) rather than too little EXP overall. Peds are always going to suffer in the EXP department at higher ratings and if you want to help them, looking at trophies and town marshall quests would be a way to go, rather than overall exp of the game or quests.

[meepsa]

no, no, no and no again to double xp, at any time.

I'm not saying it isn't a grind, but the xp rate is fine for T1 and 2, T3 is where the drag currently starts but that is due to a lack of content that will be fixed.

my main reason for the no against double xp though? dragons. I've recently, as an experiment, played a dragon that took all the quests they could find up till the start of T2 (Kion Militia, Sslanis Militia and all other various Lesser Aradoth quests, found a lot I never even heard of actually!), my level at the end? 27 adv, high enough to start Tier 2.

I get that leveling a biped is tedious, which I guess is why this was propped up, but leveling a dragon is TOO easy in my eyes. the amount of time it took me to get my new hatchling RoP ready? 14 days, this was without hard-core grinding or playing too many hours in a day. even had 9 deathpoints to deal with because I got a bit too overconfident (and because I'm stubborn.)

But yes, there's a clear example why double xp would NOT work, unless it was biped only which is still kinda iffy territory, dragon players would simply rush through the content even faster, content which is actually interesting and rewarding, their ability quests already give a ton of xp too, imagine that being doubled? (II quests nearly gives you 1/3 of a level at 24)
____
Combat pets through quests? Sure thing! kept relevant for longer than a tier?...eeeeeh... especially if you want them stronger than the current ones.
____
For tech/forms/crystal info, having a quest which actually directs you to the target mobs could be neat, the thing is that it shouldn't be class restricted, perhaps a quest given by Krianos available to all players that involves getting either? I'm not sure whether quest checks can be rolled for crystals or forms in general...
____
Encyclopedia window.
Make it a lá Adventure Journal from WoW, where it outlines what content would be relevant for you at what level, and where you should ask around for it.

Don't make it crystal clear and "guiding-hand" though, something allong the lines of "Private Ellisa is concerned about a recent development in the forests surrounding Bristugo, she's looking for able gifted to help her." My main reasoning behind not making it too clear, is that you still want to encourage exploration in an MMO, especially one like istaria. Also, making it too easy to get might make it seem like dumbing down the people that would actually use this feature.

[LOVWYRM]

Thank you Ladies for your comments and suggestions.

The double xp was only one idea for a faster advancement of TRUE newbies. I was aware of the big difference between bipeds and dragons leveling- and I was aware of consequences. Racktor`s suggestion for more xp for trophies might be a better solution.
And grind- yes its Istaria^^ and I always loved it. I do not want to see that changed- but maybe eased for lower level.
Meeps- that YOU are able to level a char-that you can seach for and find appropriate quests.. well- you are not a true newbi^^
As you`ve said yourself: You found quests you never heard of.
And yes meeps- this was brought up for bipeds-concerning leveling- but brought up too for all new players who try to find theit way into Istaria.
Racky- I too saw some new players on Order-Flame and me assisted 2 of them- with lots of time and effort (like you and many others do!). Seems they are gone again-or decided to play other chars- We haven`t seen them since weeks now.
But those 2 gave me an impression how many questions there are- and how hard to find answers alone.
And how hard it is to enjoy a game where is no player base at your level. But well.. that is known fact.

Racky- if you care for other newbies atm: What is your impression?
Do I see a problem, where is none?
You both commented on my suggestions- Do you have any further suggestions? Any other ideas?

Thanks again

[Kerech]

Having recently returned to the game after 5+ years, I started two new characters: 1 biped, 1 dragon. I generally group them and two-box, since I play on Blight and nobody else is ever on there that I can see. The dragon is constantly outleveling the biped. Most of this is due to the dragon adventure quests, most of which reward huge chunks of experience upon completion. Even taking the trophies collected while hunting, and turning them in with the biped, the biped can't keep up. So I gave up and decided to just level them separately. The dragon levels just fine. The biped is a looong grind.

Maybe instead of messing with quests that both dragons and bipeds can take, or rather than boosting experience, what about introducing class quests that provide experience on par with what the dragons get from their adventure quests? Dragons couldn't take those quests, and that would speed up biped leveling without affecting dragon leveling.

I know, adding class quests for all the various quests in the game would take a lot of work, but that seems like it should help solve the problem.

[meepsa]

I think I'll take a friend's advice and stop posting in this thread if everything I say will get shot down because "I know how"...

That character I played as though I was a newbie, to see what the experience would be like, I didn't even hand in trophy items or do town marshall quests that happened to allign with my quests.

If something didn't guide me somewhere? I wouldn't go there (if an MMO player does this, they're restricting themselves, but that's another matter), so I did actually miss out on a few (Giant Chicken questline is a good example of an "out-there" quest, as well as the follow-up quests for the Missing Shipment of Gems, as you have to go back up the volcano with no reason to actually see that there is a quest there.), all the quests that I got, even the ones I didn't know of before, I got because I actually checked in with the NPCs, I explored. These are quests EVERY newbie would, or at the very least should, see because of the giant orange mark that appears on both the NPCs and map. That is IF they actually follow the path quests dictate instead of rushing through them.

I'm not saying the xp rate is perfect, but it's definately not broken either, the biggest issue simply is Rating and the strength of an early game biped vs and early game dragon (yes I know, that dreaded topic, I can't help that it holds value in discussions of mechanics)

what about introducing class quests that provide experience on par with what the dragons get from their adventure quests? Dragons couldn't take those quests, and that would speed up biped leveling without affecting dragon leveling.

This, right here, is a great solution, and is one I have in fact been working on. I've created several concepts for quest series that are related to class/school rather than race, to give each a bit more flavour, the first of which I've actually already submitted and will be worked on for delta 284.

[Ming]

I just want to say that I find this game easy to level in. You don't lose XP when you die, for example.
You don't lose resources when you craft for lack of expertise. Etc. The quests should be easier
to find and the NPCs don't have enough information. But players can always ask another player.
I fear the reason they don't stay is because there are so few players and because of
the outdated graphics or some other old fashioned aspect of the game.

[Racktor]

The double xp was only one idea for a faster advancement of TRUE newbies. I was aware of the big difference between bipeds and dragons leveling- and I was aware of consequences. Racktor`s suggestion for more xp for trophies might be a better solution.
...
Meeps- that YOU are able to level a char-that you can seach for and find appropriate quests.. well- you are not a true newbi^^
As you`ve said yourself: You found quests you never heard of.

The only difference between "true" newbies and vets is that the vets know the tricks of the trade - aka, the best trophy droppers, highest mobs they can kill for their level, easiest places to farm resources, etc, etc. Going around and taking quests isn't a vet thing; if a newbie wanted to find quests, they could find most quests. The only ones they wouldn't find would be the ones that are really out of the way. If they greet each NPC with a "?" on their heads, they're gonna get a bunch of quests.
Meepsa played through as a newbie would, just taking a bunch of quests and doing them for the sake of 'yay, quests!'. She wasn't going around and using her prior knowledge to help her - as she said, she missed some quests, but found new ones because she searched. New players can search, too; that's not just a vet thing.

Racky- I too saw some new players on Order-Flame and me assisted 2 of them- with lots of time and effort (like you and many others do!). Seems they are gone again-or decided to play other chars- We haven`t seen them since weeks now.
But those 2 gave me an impression how many questions there are- and how hard to find answers alone.
And how hard it is to enjoy a game where is no player base at your level. But well.. that is known fact.
Racky- if you care for other newbies atm: What is your impression?
Do I see a problem, where is none?

In our group, we tend to have 1-3 newbies in it at a time, last I checked. Most have stuck around, a few have gone away, it seems. Others are super eager to become adults and ancient and want to stick around; they're all excited for the endgame. It wills them on.

Amon once said that Istaria's sub count doesn't really fluctuate these days; it's rather stable. As old people go, new people come in and keep the number steady. We're always going to have newbies that turn away from Istaria, be it the graphics, grind, or loneliness.

From what I've seen, newbies mostly are daunted by the repetition of dragon ability quests and the utter boredom of crafting, from what I have seen. I haven't met any ped newbies, but I imagine they're nervous about the grind. I haven't seen any complaints from newbies about grinding adventure during the first 40 levels. Most people muttering about grind in marketplace or something are those that are in the lvl 40-100 range, trying to work with no quest material. Or people who are working on their 2nd school and no longer can do any of those quest lines.

The problem is a lack of quests for T3-T5 rather than a lack of EXP. Dragons have their ability quests, bipeds are SOL unless, as Kerech suggested and Meepsa has submitted, they get quests akin to dragons.

Of course, crafting is a different story when it comes to grind...

Newbies are always a frustration to get in the game and stay in it. The expectations of games have changed today and Istaria is struggling to follow. So, yes, there is an issue with newbies, but it's less to do with flat exp and more to do with how much the game itself has to offer.

You both commented on my suggestions- Do you have any further suggestions? Any other ideas?

Thanks again

Well I said upping trophy exp for T4 and T2 some. They seem to be a little bit lacking in comparison, but it's honestly been ages since I've done T2. I just know you cant hit the next lvl 5 mark in T4 on a dragon with your quests + trophies, while you can in T3 or, sometimes, in T2. I think it's more specifically the 70-80 and 30-40 areas.

Otherwise, just making new quests is the best solution, ones that arent kill x of y. Though, that's easier said than done, really. Lots of writing.

[Guaran]

The "Double exp" thing might have been presented in a way that isn't the best. But something along those lines could be done. Add some more school quests for bipeds in the first couple tiers, for the base schools. These quests can give very nice exp, the exp boosts to assist in leveling the first few schools. Doesn't need to be double-exp across the board. But some quests that reach into the 30's, for warrior, mage, cleric, monk, scout. Monk already has a couple quests along these lines. Exp could be bumped up on those quests. Add some new for the others. This would be something achieve-able by dev's without needing to make quests for all the other schools. (But that would be nice).

It would help a new character get started. Wouldn't give dragons any extra exp.

[AmonGwareth]

Regarding Adventurer classes:

There are class specific quests on New Trismus which would get you to level 10 in all four of the base classes. In T2, there are "class group" quest series that would help you level any secondary classes. Battlefields, and Holy Symbols and Sources of Power are all specialized quest series for groups of classes - Healers, Mages, Warriors, etc. The gap would appear to be Lesser Aradoth (10-25 range).

Tradeskill classes is another matter entirely. New quests are not a simple easy thing to create. Even basic ones need at least a little planning and work to write and enter. Comes down to priorities. As others have mentioned, once a player exhausts the bulk of quests in T2 the game hits a major void for Tiers 3 and 4. That would seem to be a big area that needs work.

Crafting grind. Yes, that is a pain. We could increase the XP gained from formulas. If all schools were converted to the primary skill system then you would gain levels more quickly by creating finished goods instead of grinding bars all day.

[LOVWYRM]

thanks all who answered here until now
(esp. those who answered factual, or friendly or polite).

It was NOT my intention to prove or discuss, that increased xp-or revamped xp are the silver bullet of the prob with newbies.
If there is a prob at all. Some answers in this thread make me feel that my concerns are a bit...obsolete.

My intention WAS/IS to collect ideas (=brainstorming- you may want to read definition-as well as rules)
make a list of 100 (^^) suggestions- from which-during the first reading- things like "double xp" as well as "dragon table dance for welcome" get deleted.
If only ONE good idea comes life- it was worth it.

I apologize if I was not clear- I apologize if I hurt feelings- and I apologize if >insert what seems appropriate<

[Drakarius Shadows]

Explain to new players that getting the map pack is one of the best things they can do.

[Abbie]

I would like to see the old new trismus back, the new design aint good, and dont call out to newbies at all.


What i would love most is that all the old beginner island was once again alive

[Vahrokh]

The issue with Istaria is not just Istaria's but covers the whole MMO genre.
On top of that, Istaria got its own specific issues.

I'll do an example off a game that does not compete with Istaria at all (so no risk of "stealing players"), called EvE Online.
Why that? Because it shares a number of common features: it's an end of 1990s MMO released in 2003. It's a sandbox. It's "a classic style MMO".
A very huge difference between the two: EvE has been constantly updated, has a medium-to-large develpment team, they perform very active marketing on various media, they setup RL players meetings with the devs and so on.

Despite this, EvE numbers stopped growing years ago. Why? Because subscription based MMOs era is at its sunset, because these days players don't have just 3 MMOs to pick from, but 3000 and, most of all, 2016 players are not the same RL generation that 2003 players were. EvE's devs cleverly introduced one thing called "PLEX", similar to other games (Guild Wars 2...) that makes rich players pay for the "poor". Despite that, despite doing a LOT of things right (and a lot... less right) they are stagnating.

Istaria adds to the above "2016 era MMO generation" problems others, known since about its day zero and feeling XP is too slow to get, is a consequence not a cause. If somebody feels the game is "too slow" or "XP I get is not enough, please double it", it's because the player feels the gameplay boring / repetitive / grindy. But it's not Istaria's "fault". That was just the way back then to level up, lets not forget that World Of Warcraft came 2 years later than Istaria and much of its success came from it's levelling up mechanism NOT being based on grinding.

Now, as you may easily imagine, it's not possible to "turn" Istaria into a different game. On the contrary, it might be just easier to advertise to the potential hardcore niche 2016 playerbase who (for any reason) feel enticed to play "the old, hard way".
However, something has to be done to the gameplay and the graphics. There are hard core players these days (just mention these days' "permadeath, hard survival MMOs") but they want to play a game that is "classic gameplay" but modern.

I read Istaria may actually get a revamped engine, this could also fix the relatively frequent crashes and, most of all, the sluggish / laggy / "warping" gameplay and (even more) network coop gameplay.

However...

...I have painfully learned in these last 4 years how creating good projects for companies does not imply they'll get sold.
Those companies I developed software for, believed in "word of mouth" and did not advertise or at least SEO optimize them for Google visibility. Sadly, word of mouth worked when the players community was all of 40k players (look at first Everquest playerbase numbers) but these days it won't even go above the background noise generated by so many products, so many reviews, so much stuff continuously going on in our world.

[Drakarius Shadows]

Having lived in the pipe from day one till just two years ago I can say it is an entirely different animal.
Death in Eve is more hard core than some people like, but you are not locked into any one way to find your joy.
You can do PvE and PvP as well as play the market and do mining and crafting to make cash.
Also the game universe is one large system consisting of multiple servers linked together acting as one.

Istaria could be improved through better graphics and new additions, but it would need to have PvP and more character development freedom to get a bigger customer base.

[Rayth]

I've found the lack of beginner formulas to be annoying. Getting something like the beginner backpack to be downright silly. I'm starting fresh again just now instead of reactivating my old account, so I'll see if this has improved. I'll say the lack of a consigner in NT isn't a great start. Haven't bothered to figure out where the nearest consigner is that sells noob stuff. Hopefully there isn't one in NT and I just overlooked it.

Hopefully the beginner forms are more of a common drop than they were a year or two ago (the last time I played).

Yeah, yeah, I know you can ask around in Marketplace - but some of the forms I couldn't get last time, they were pretty rare. It's not like there's a vibrant community at lower levels for trading. I'd rather just try and farm them.

I understand why you restrict at journey and above, but all the beginner ones should be able to be easily farmed or purchased. I'm not all that interested in begging people to craft beginner (read: nub) gear.

[Terao]

PvP is a concept that won't work for Istaria, everything would have to be rebalanced and Multiclassing doesn't fit well into this.

Spread the word, Istaria is unique to it's crafting and dragons, but I rarely see any advertising or news on mmorpg.com and all the other sites concerning mmo's. VI needs to raise it's marketing activities to get Istaria more known to the public. It's a niche old school game that will find it's lovers, but they need to know it exists.

[Smaug]

I've found the lack of beginner formulas to be annoying. Getting something like the beginner backpack to be downright silly. I'm starting fresh again just now instead of reactivating my old account, so I'll see if this has improved. I'll say the lack of a consigner in NT isn't a great start. Haven't bothered to figure out where the nearest consigner is that sells noob stuff. Hopefully there isn't one in NT and I just overlooked it.

Hopefully the beginner forms are more of a common drop than they were a year or two ago (the last time I played).

Yeah, yeah, I know you can ask around in Marketplace - but some of the forms I couldn't get last time, they were pretty rare. It's not like there's a vibrant community at lower levels for trading. I'd rather just try and farm them.

I understand why you restrict at journey and above, but all the beginner ones should be able to be easily farmed or purchased. I'm not all that interested in begging people to craft beginner (read: nub) gear.

Alot of formulas are buyable now from npc's, not all but a lot. Here's a link to a site (run by a dev/assistant) that can show you just about any form whether its loot only or buyable and if buyable who to buy it from.

http://istariareference.com/formula.asp

no connie in NT unfortunately, travel to Kion to find one used by players (at least on Chaos) for low level stuff.

PS checked for beginner backpack, heres results, drop only

TIER		NAME	TYPE	MIN	CRAFT SKILL	INFO	NPC/TRAINER/VENDOR		PRICE	SCRIBED	VAULT
Beginner		Fabric Backpack Pouch	Container	1	Clothworking		Beginner Outfitter		250
Beginner		Leather Backpack	Container	150	Leatherworking		Not Sold / Drop Only
RECORDS DISPLAYING: 2 - OWNED: 0 / NOT OWNED: 2							TOTAL VENDOR PRICE:		250c	0	0

[AmonGwareth]

We do Google ad words, but advertising on mmorpg and other sites is extremely expensive to the tune of thousands of dollars per month. It simply isn't feasible for us.

PvP is a concept that won't work for Istaria, everything would have to be rebalanced and Multiclassing doesn't fit well into this.

Spread the word, Istaria is unique to it's crafting and dragons, but I rarely see any advertising or news on mmorpg.com and all the other sites concerning mmo's. VI needs to raise it's marketing activities to get Istaria more known to the public. It's a niche old school game that will find it's lovers, but they need to know it exists.

[Pryzm]

I thought about making more advertise for Istaria since i`m getting more and more subscribers of this community on youtube. Sadly i don`t have an idear about such sites at all. Could you guys give me some sites i could go and check on? I might think about throwing out weekly updates then. That can`t be so hard . Also i heared if you do so you get a free plot? Is that true?