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Thread: on the limited use of cargo disk

  1. #21

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    "so I have a carrying capacity with out cargo disk of 8040 and with cargo disk 9540."

    You are wrong again. 9540 - 8040 = 1500 that your disk carries right?

    There is no disk that carries that little amount, Smallest is 2000 bulk
    (= 200 Mith ore), largest is 13500 bulk (= 1350 Mith ore).

    If you have some disk that only carries 1500 you need a new disk.

    http://www.istaria-lexica.de/Cargo_Disk
    Dacurly Dac : Phoenix Fellowship Guild : Chaos Server
    http://phoenixfellowship.clanz.co/

  2. #22

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    refurbished sandstone disk bulk capacity of 1500 for 3 objects. I have the game running on my other screen!

    SO yes I have a cargo disk of 1500. So I right again! And I haven't upgraded for three reasons, first i lose mobility like jumping down a clif to get to resources, secondly the gain being negative for me (my speed is 75) i saw no need jet, thirdly I have not trained my thinkering jet.

  3. #23

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoster View Post
    Dear Azath what you are forgetting is two fold first a cargo disk reduces your speed the bigger the more reduction. and secondly I gain in efficenty by recalling back to the expert machine.
    The % speed loss from the disk is far less than the 207% gain in carrying capacity? This is a for a travertine tarbash...
    And I said nothing to do with recalling to machine? I simply corrected your assumption that no disk goes above a 35% inventory bulk increase O.o


    Judging by the numbers you have provided i assume you are a t5/t6 crafter, but still use the NT tutorial disk...? why wouldn't you upgrade it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacurly View Post
    If you have some disk that only carries 1500 you need a new disk.
    Of course you're going to think stats like that with a disk that limits porting + carries so little. But at lv100, you should be comparing a t5 or t6 disk to your inv+pet average capacity...

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoster View Post
    And I haven't upgraded for three reasons, first i lose mobility like jumping down a clif to get to resources, secondly the gain being negative for me (my speed is 75) i saw no need jet, thirdly I have not trained my thinkering jet.
    1. I don't see any lost mobility on my dragon or biped? You can jump down a cliff with or without a disk, and a dragon can fly so long as they have a dragon cargo disk.
    2. Speed boosts are no offence - easy to get. Gift of Speed V (requires augmentation skill..gotten from cleric/healer, either is an essential to any biped adventurer and the only school a biped crafter needs to 100 to craft efficiently), boots with speed V, t6 necklace (harder to get if not an adventurer so this one i understand the lack of)
    3. Then ask someone to make a t5/t6 disk. This is a community game, designed specifically to make a new player need things from older players if they don't want pure pain...just ask- if you're on chaos i could make one for you myself even.
    ~Cariseru, Ancient Dragon of Chaos~ - ~Arlexia, Saris Healer, Conjurer and and up-and-coming Crafter of Chaos~

    Pretty words done by Theeda Novelia of Chaos! (http://ferrety-lixciaa.deviantart.com/)

  4. #24
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    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    ..... oh my god you've been using the absolute worst disk to make this argument. Yes THAT disk is worse than a loyalty pet. But you really need an upgrade to make an argument here XD

    I'll be happy to provide you with a t5/t6 disk so you can see the difference.

  5. #25

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    No wonder your so slow at gathering, what level are you. Less than 5? Get a real disk and get some work done.

    This post needs to be changed to "On the limited use of refurbished Cargo disk" I had forgot there was a disk less than 2000 bulk. i'm not sure if I ever used one.

    Your trying to work with a wheel barrel and the rest of us use a dump truck.
    Last edited by Dacurly; January 28th, 2017 at 12:16 AM.
    Dacurly Dac : Phoenix Fellowship Guild : Chaos Server
    http://phoenixfellowship.clanz.co/

  6. #26

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    I guess the better comparison is my cargo disk it is a child's sled, But I don't play if its not snowing. while others are using a huge sled, thinking its a big truck.

    But the small size of it made my thinking on how use full it could be. And put that into a simple formula because math does lei. If you take everything into account.

    I have found one use park it at a machine with the tools on it and some exes raw materials you can't convert ad the time.

    But I would like some one to produce those promised numbers of effencienty gain of above 100%

  7. #27

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    You guys are making this way too complicated.

    Using a disk is faster. Spend a day using one. Spend a day not using one. Decide for yourself.

  8. #28

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    That is just what I did. Conclusion cargo disk are a completely useless peace of equipment using it cost me far to much time. That is what set me of in the first place!

    But that then I thought. this can't be true. So I started using math as there isn't feeling in it only facts. And that proved my feeling right, was even worse then I thought. Theoretically i am even Better of running up and down the using a my cargo disk. With recall I can skip one leg.

    Sorry feelings are very good in following made believes. And as You expect cargo disk to be effective they are effective.

    As a scientist I have learned to check feeling against facts.

    I also would like prove to you that the a large cargo disk does not always increase you carrying capacity but that has to wait till I can make one.

    for proving that that the max gain is about 35% that will take even longer.

    But any one else can show that percentages gain over 100 are possible

  9. #29
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    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    You really are comparing a child's sled to a dump truck here. Your 1500 bulk cargo disk is a sad comparison to the t6 cargo disks I've been using in my math. 1500 vs 13500. That's nine times the bulk.

    Based on your math and the fact that you couldn't tell that a 13500 bulk disk is more than 100% of an increase over the 8193 bulk I get without the disk, I highly doubt that you're a scientist of any sort. And why do you bring feelings up? Nobody here mentioned feeling that cargo disks were better. We've shown you numbers and done the math to prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoster View Post
    I also would like prove to you that the a large cargo disk does not always increase you carrying capacity but that has to wait till I can make one.
    Excuse me what? A cargo disk doesn't always increase your carrying capacity? You're flat out wrong here. I know you're using the worst disk out there but that's still +1500 on top of your inventory and pet whether it's actually more efficient or not. In your case, with a loyalty pet it's not more efficient because the pet holds more than the disk. But higher level disks hold a LOT more and thus improve efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoster View Post
    But any one else can show that percentages gain over 100 are possible
    And here's your proof that a 13500 bulk disk exists since you also seem to think that's impossible:



    I start with 8193 bulk without the disk. The disk adds 13500. More than doubling my capacity. Which is over a 100% increase in capacity as I've previously shown.

    And I've also previously shown that the efficiency more than doubles with this disk when you show efficiency as bulk/time. You have no leg to stand on to make this argument. Either prove my math is wrong, accept that you are wrong, or stop whining and just continue to be less efficient while you believe you are more efficient.

  10. #30

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    Quote Originally Posted by Machaeon View Post
    You really are comparing a child's sled to a dump truck here. Your 1500 bulk cargo disk is a sad comparison to the t6 cargo disks I've been using in my math. 1500 vs 13500. That's nine times the bulk.
    So the comparison is perfect. on a child sled you would put something as 30cm*cm*60cm on a dog sled you would put 1m*1M*2M. on a big sled it would be 2M*1.5m * 2M . also the speed comparison is much more applicable. A dump truck would be 10* as fast and even bigger then a big sled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machaeon View Post
    Based on your math and the fact that you couldn't tell that a 13500 bulk disk is more than 100% of an increase over the 8193 bulk I get without the disk, I highly doubt that you're a scientist of any sort. And why do you bring feelings up? Nobody here mentioned feeling that cargo disks were better. We've shown you numbers and done the math to prove it.
    Sorry here I'm a doctor in math and sciences, and I'm still working as shuts ad the university. And it to me normally to solve the mathematical problem. And bases on my math Its impossible to gain 100% carrying captivity

    Quote Originally Posted by Machaeon View Post
    Excuse me what? A cargo disk doesn't always increase your carrying capacity? You're flat out wrong here. I know you're using the worst disk out there but that's still +1500 on top of your inventory and pet whether it's actually more efficient or not. In your case, with a loyalty pet it's not more efficient because the pet holds more than the disk. But higher level disks hold a LOT more and thus improve efficiency.
    I should have said carrying capacity per time unit and even the biggest bad boy will decrease you effectiveness if you either to slow ( >90) or to fast (>165) this is an direct consequence of the math coming from the formula I showed you and did show how I derived it


    Quote Originally Posted by Machaeon View Post
    Excuse
    And here's your proof that a 13500 bulk disk exists since you also seem to think that's impossible:
    Yes and that is exactly what I did put into the calculation


    [QUOTE=Machaeon;316343]I start with 8193 bulk without the disk. The disk adds 13500. More than doubling my capacity. Which is over a 100% increase in capacity as I've previously shown. [QUOTE=Machaeon;316343]

    let show it simple when recalling you cut out the back track so to break even you need a cargo disk that if no speed is lost will carry as much as you can carry. to that is 8193 for no gain ad all. now to get to do double the total capacity I have to double twice your carrying capacity so that is 2*2*8193. so a cargo disk that doesn't lose speed ad all needs to be 3 times you carrying capacity
    So I need a cargo disk that is 24759 max bulk and -0speed

  11. #31

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    You...you don't double the carrying capacity...your cargo disk doesn't equal your inventory space... If you use a cargo disk that matches your level, you carry more in your cargo disk than you do in your inventory.
    "Normality is a paved road. It's comfortable to walk on, but no flowers grow on it." - Vincent Van Gogh

  12. #32

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    yep, you are getting it!

    Now that should work very simple if it were not that a cargo disk also slows you down.

    Also you should include a pet if you have one in what you can carry. but that is relative simple to understand.

  13. #33

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    I'm not the one "getting it" aha Doesn't it make you wonder how you're the only one who is having issues with the cargo disk? To put it simply; we all know using a cargo disk (ESPECIALLY!!! One fit for you--not the refurbished sandstone one because god why on earth would you use that at level 100?) brings in more ore in a greater rate than not. Not to be rude, but if you're having such an issue--while no one else is, maybe you just shouldn't use it.
    "Normality is a paved road. It's comfortable to walk on, but no flowers grow on it." - Vincent Van Gogh

  14. #34

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    No personal attacks please.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  15. #35

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    Sorry I took me so long to answer, I wanted to keep things strait and easy to apply. I hope this is more understandeble.

    What I was looking ad was to look if a cargo disk or no cargo disk would be more effective. This because I run into a situation where I thought using no cargo disk was better than using one.

    So I did go to my trusted friend mathematics to find out if a cargo disk was effective.
    What the question is which is able carry per time unit more.

    1 a person able to do recall. So he is going to walk from the machine to the resource field then harvest and recall back to the plot of the machine and walk to the machine and work his gain up. Or
    2 a person with a cargo disk. walking from the machine to the resource field deploying his cargo disk and start harvesting, and then walking back to the machine and work up his gain.


    To do the math I for this I had to assume some approximations:
    1) recalling back doesn’t cost time
    2) Running from recall place to machine doesn’t cost time
    3) I don’t use recall scrolls
    The bigger the distance to better these approximations relatively are.
    ----------------------------------------------------First part simple math ----------------------------------------------------
    I came to this conclusion the gain percentage wise for using a cargo disk is
    ((Cc+Cn)/(Cn*(1+ sn/min(sn-sr,100)))-1) *100
    Where:
    Cn is the total cargo capacity of the person without cargo disk ( gear and pet)
    Cc is the cargo capacity of the cargo disk
    sn id the speed of the person without cargo disk.
    Sr is the speed reduction of the cargo disk
    Min is the minimal function because the cargo disk can go faster then 100
    ------------------------------------------second part taken springing into account-------------------------------------
    I came to this conclusion the gain percentage wise for using a cargo disk is

    (((CC+Cn)/(Cn * (1+ (sn+sr*%r) /(min(sn-sr,100)*%n+min(sn+rs-sr,100)*%r)))) -1)*100%

    CC+Cn=(Cn * (1+ (sn+sr*%r) /(sn-sr*%n+100*%r))))
    CC =Cn * (sn+sr*%r) /(sn-sr*%n+100*%r)
    CC *(sn-sr*%n+100*%r) =Cn * (sn+sr*%r)
    (Cc-Cn)*sn= Cc *cr*%n -cn*100*%r +Cn*sr*%r


    Where is also:
    %n percentage time spend not running (normally =70/90)
    %r percentage time spend running (normally = 20/90)
    rs the extra running speed (normally =40)
    ------------------------------------third part what does this mean in Certain situations---------------------------
    Here I did calculate the turning points speeds where between the cargo disk is effective
    So I have seven levels 0,19,39,69,79,99,100 all for by pets, but if I understand correctly dragons follow the same patterns. If anyone want I have the excel sheet I used.
    I have the following carrying capacity for each level, back pack, back pack and loyalty pet, back peck and full cargo gear, back peck cargo gear and pet.
    All will have for results min and max, standard and running

    backpack +pet 6000 6400 6800 7200 7600 8000 8400
    - min sn = sr*Cc/(Cc-Cn) Not pos Not pos Not pos 575 167 87 93
    - max sn =100 *Cc/Cn 25 31 88 104 118 150 161
    running min sn = sr*Cc/(Cc-Cn)-sr*%r Not pos Not pos Not pos 566 158 78 84
    running medium (Cc-Cn) *Sn = CC*sr*%n – CC*100*%r +cn*sr*%r N.A N.A N.A. 142 N.A N.A N.A
    running max sn =100 *Cc/Cn -sr*%r 16 22 79 95 110 141 152

    BP+ gear 1000 2000 2650 3300 3950 4620 5120
    - min sn = sr*Cc/(Cc-Cn) 33 inf 36 41 46 47 56
    - max sn =100 *Cc/Cn 150 100 226 227 228 260 264
    running min sn = sr*Cc/(Cc-Cn)-sr*%r 24 inf 27 32 37 38 47
    running medium (Cc-Cn) *Sn = CC*sr*%n – CC*100*%r +cn*sr*%r Not pos inf Not pos N.A N.A N.A N.A
    running max sn =100 *Cc/Cn -sr*%r 141 91 218 218 219 251 255

    BP+ gear +pet 6000 7000 7650 8300 8950 9620 10120
    - min sn = sr*Cc/(Cc-Cn) Not pos Not pos Not pos Not pos 4680 146 140
    - max sn =100 *Cc/Cn 25 29 78 90 101 125 133
    running min sn = sr*Cc/(Cc-Cn)-sr*%r Not pos Not pos Not pos Not pos 4671 137 131
    running medium (Cc-Cn) *Sn = CC*sr*%n – CC*100*%r +cn*sr*%r N.A N.A Not pos Not pos 1714 60 74
    running max sn =100 *Cc/Cn -sr*%r 16 20 70 81 92 116 125


    most difficult is to understand the situation where you are running into the max while running and not while not running. luckily this not needed ad all. but it's included as medium in the table.
    you will see the term not possible in the table here you are even better of running backwards and forwards the using a cargo disk.
    also you will see red number here it is better not to use a cargo disk the most surprising one it top of the top carrying capacity. But when you look at the number It's not a surprise.

    --------------------------------------------------------------fourth the answer-----------------------------------

    If you are under balanced in carrying capacity campaired to cargo disk then the cargo disk is better, I you are under developed in cargo disk then recalling is better.

  16. #36

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    That went really badly in copy pasting, sorry, here I try again hopefully now better readable, I do hope the table is there.



    What I was looking ad was to look if a cargo disk or no cargo disk would be more effective. This because I run into a situation where I thought using no cargo disk was better than using one.


    So I did go to my trusted friend mathematics to find out if a cargo disk was effective.

    To do the math I had to assume some approximations
    1) recalling back doesn’t cost time
    2) Running from recall place to machine doesn’t cost time
    3) I don’t use recall scrolls
    The bigger the distance to better these approximations relatively are.


    ----------------------------------------------First part simple math ------------------------------------------------
    her I take no changing speed upgrades into account

    I came to this conclusion the gain percentage wise for using a cargo disk is

    ((Cc+Cn)/(Cn*(1+ sn/min(sn-sr,100)))-1) *100

    Where:
    Cn is the total cargo capacity of the person without cargo disk ( gear and pet)
    Cc is the cargo capacity of the cargo disk
    sn id the speed of the person without cargo disk.
    Sr is the speed reduction of the cargo disk
    Min is the minimal function because the cargo disk can go faster then 100

    Just drop your values into this formula and the result should give the gain in efficiently when using a cargo disk


    ------------------------------------second part taken springing into account-------------------------------------

    Here I implemented the effect of running for those knowing what to do they can easily put in more time dependent speed upgrades in


    I came to this conclusion the gain percentage wise for using a cargo disk is

    (((CC+Cn)/(Cn * (1+ (sn+sr*%r) /(min(sn-sr,100)*%n+min(sn+rs-sr,100)*%r)))) -1)*100%

    Where is also:
    %n percentage time spend not running (normally =70/90)
    %r percentage time spend running (normally = 20/90)
    rs the extra running speed (normally =40)


    Just drop your values into this formula and the result should give the gain in efficiently when using a cargo disk



    -------------------------------third part what does this mean in Certain situations---------------------------


    Here I did calculate the turning points speeds where between the cargo disk is effective


    So I have seven levels 0,19,39,69,79,99,100 all for by pets, but if I understand correctly dragons follow the same patterns. If anyone want I have the excel sheet I used.
    I have the following carrying capacity for each level, back pack, back pack and loyalty pet, back peck and full cargo gear, back peck cargo gear and pet.

    All will have for results min and max, standard and running







    https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ke267ns6q...1%29.xlsx?dl=0

    I did also the calculations for where running would be semi effective, these results are quite difficult to understand luckily non of them would influence the results, so left them out.

    Yol see the term "not possible" in the table in this case you are better of running backwards and forwards the using a cargo disk.
    if it gives inf. the speed you would need would be faster then the speed of light.
    also the max calculation can give you a speed lower than 100 which is an errorness result but means that it's not a good idée to use a cargo disk.

    If you get a result that where the min speed is lower than the maximum speed then in that speed range you are better of using a cargo disk, but only then.

    A special remark on the max cargo gear and pet and max cargo disk. One might expect a positive result, but when one looks at the values one can see easily that, that is not the case 10120 *1.35 > 13500.



    -----------------------------------------------fourth the answer--------------------------------------------------

    If you are low in carrying capacity compared to cargo disk then the cargo disk is better, I you are under developed in cargo disk then recalling is better.

    If you have a high or low speed then recalling is better.

    Add the highest end of carrying capacity, if you have the optimal speed, there isn't a clear cut answer they are both equal If you have the right speed.
    Last edited by gkoster; February 1st, 2017 at 09:27 AM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: on the limited use of cargo disk

    some how the file is not linked in

    the original spreadsheet is https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ke267ns6q...1%29.xlsx?dl=0

    the original pickture is https://www.dropbox.com/s/b4qc7b5rks...table.png?dl=0

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