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Thread: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

  1. #1

    Default A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    Warning: this is gonna be long.

    Let's be honest- this game is dying. I haven't played for long, but in 2 days I've seen maybe 1 other player. All of the player chats on Chaos are empty, save for a single player-created one- with 3 people, all of whom were AFK when I tried joining and talking in it. I may not have found the main city area- if there is one- but this is one of the emptiest games I've ever played in, and it's a little saddening. Most of the forum posts on even the front page of a topic haven't had replies in days or even months, where on even a semi-active game threads could get buried in a matter of days. House and lair plots stand empty and abandoned, towns are populated by only NPC's. The game has already faded into obscurity- it's just a matter of time until the company itself weighs the profits against the costs and the axe falls.

    As a disclaimer- I don't WANT the game to die. Modern MMO's are by and large p2w WoW clones, with occasional new ideas cropping up that immediately generate 5 knockoffs within a few years. (case in point: the 800 minecraft knockoffs on steam.) This game has ideas and mechanics that, while not new, have largely been lost in the modern MMO feature pool- including housing, multiple non-human races, extensive crafting systems, and a deep player-driven economy, while remaining truly the ONLY mmo that allows play as a fully non-humanoid race- the dragon. I firmly believe that the game could flourish in the current MMO market, but not as it is. The game is clunky and outdated, with a non-intuitive UI and combat, little direction as far as quests go, and low-poly graphics that can only be considered ancient. No, I don't want this game to die, but I don't believe it can survive as it is. It's simply too hard for new players to get into, and there are too many other options on the market that are more intuitive, more streamlined, look better, and maybe ARE better in the area that they've chosen to specialize in. No, they don't offer all of the same features, but they offer enough that they have a higher draw to players than a game that hasn't had a major graphics update in 5+ years.

    As a secondary disclaimer, compared to a lot of players I am new to MMO's. My first was runescape back in 2007. I wasn't here for good 'ole Everquest, and most of my experience has been with the aforementioned WoW clones. However, I have seen what works and what doesn't- what keeps a game captivating beyond the initial rush of launch and what causes players to leave by the droves. And I will admit that a game CAN survive years beyond its expected relevancy- but that, to me, speaks strongly of beating a dead horse.Games that should otherwise have died years ago keep on chugging, held up by a usually small but dedicated playerbase that has grown used to their beloved game's various quirks and refuse to leave, for a multitude of reasons.

    This game and Nexon's Mabinogi are both good examples of that. However, without change and without new players, the game stagnates. The economy inflates, new players don't stick around for long, and the game fades into obscurity. The people I mention Mabinogi to that played it during its prime talk about it using the past tense, even though it's still running- a fond memory, but something that going back to is taken as a joke, and eventually, inevitably, the game company weighs the profits against the costs, and weighs the resources that could be dedicated to a new, more profitable game against one that's already running, and it ends. The servers close, the axe falls, the remaining playerbase mourns but scatters. Maybe, possibly, private servers crop up, individually run and without an eye for profits- but on a game as small as this one, where there are no private servers already (Trust me, I checked), even that life-after-death is unlikely. The end will truly be the end. Club Penguin just shut down recently- it can happen. On a small game company like this one, there's much more leeway given than on a larger company that has the ability to make more games and devote some of their profits to keeping old ones going, but the clock is still ticking. It's only a matter of time.

    Again, I don't want this game to die, and as someone who has seen the rise and fall of multiple MMO's I feel in a unique position to give a critique on what needs to change. Some of these are relatively easy fixes, some would take massive overhauls to the current system, and I understand that a lot of these are already works in progress. However, I would like to both go over the issues I've seen so far, explain why each of them is important, and briefly mention what I believe can be done to improve them- the last of which is tricky, considering I'm a gamer, not a coder, and don't want to tell the current devs how to do their jobs, mostly because I don't understand their jobs in the least.

    And disclaimer #3, because I haven't played for long, this will almost entirely be game mechanics themselves, not content, simply because I haven't gotten far enough to see all the content. However, as a counterpoint to the immediate dismissal of my points due to that, these are things that a new player will encounter first and one of many of them will inevitably be the reason they leave. If a new player immediately notices these things before getting to the actual content, that makes them more of a problem, not less.

    With that wall of text out of the way, let's get into the actual issues themselves:

    1: The UI

    The UI is probably the absolute first thing a player notices, and something they MUST interact with for the entirety of their play time. As such, it's crucial that the UI is intuitive and easy to navigate and relatively pleasant to look at. Players must be able to find whatever they're looking for quickly and easily, or the game itself becomes something of a hassle. And, because of its crucial but much-overlooked role at the very core of gameplay, it's something that I'm going to bring up- a lot. The UI itself ties into many of the other issues I'm going to bring up. However, for now, know that in my opinion the UI itself is a mess. No part of it is intuitive, with multiple pointless or even nonfunctional aspects. Within the first day of playing I was asking myself, "why are 90% of my skills in the character window but like 2 of them are in the crafting window? Why do I have a properties option for every window- what is this, an operating system? Where in the hell is my equipment- oh yeah, it's on a tiny, hard to see button in my bag. What does the statues button even do? Is there a simpler version of the escape menu? Is there a quest hotkey or even a quest tracker?" ...and so on. When building a UI there can't just be a long list of words that you have to squint 3/4 of the way down on to figure out what's equipped or what quests you're supposed to be doing, there should be SOME eye towards what the player is likely to use most often and making it the easiest to get at. How often is one really going to turn their compass on or off in the span of the day, and could that just be a hotkey, or included in some kind of a minimap? what does the community button even do, and how often is one likely to use it? half the options on the escape menu are either redundant, considering they're already on your screen, or pointless, or they have a purpose, just one that the player is unlikely to ever use. Getting out of the escape menu for a second, there's an entire action window. Why? Especially when one could just right click their target and select to attack or talk? Why one even has to select anything, however, is beyond me, since the only thing you CAN do with a live enemy is attack, and the only thing you can do with at least half the NPC's is greet, and the only thing you can do with resources is harvest. Why a single left click doesn't immediately do the default action for a target is beyond me, with an alternate action being MAYBE delegated by the right click. Or, y'know, just having hotkeys for gathering and loot/loot all, and a conversation window for trading with npc's or talking about quests. That'd be nice. And this isn't even getting into the map, but I'll get into that a little more later.

    2: Quests

    Should a new player succeed in adapting to the UI and actually playing the game, quests are going to be what they look to. In an ideal game, quests are relatively simple, intuitive, and minimize travel time as much as possible. They should attempt to impart as much information as possible about the goal and where to go to accomplish that goal, and why the quest-giver wants that goal accomplished. The last point is secondary, however, considering many players consider quests somewhere between a tutorial and a grind to hit max level. Many players don't even read quests. I will admit that most of Istaria's quests are simple. However, they fail at being intuitive, and the travel time tends to be through the roof. Often times quests provide vague instructions as to how to get to mobs, utilizing little to none of the game's actual landmarks, with quest goals that require a player to wander across an entire island and back more than once. This is absurd. Why there are apparently no map markers to designate where mobs actually are is beyond me, being a far more accurate direction than "outside of town" or "take the path west out of town then take a right at the fork and find a waterfall near a pond and probably make spirit orbs there." Case in point, for a pair of quests in Kion, you're given two directions as to where bronze golems are- "Up the hill from the sandstone mine near Parsinia" and "East of Parsinia". Nevermind the fact that the entire area is east of Parsinia, I started from Parsinia, headed east (which ended up being the north exit, which may have been my first mistake), found a sandstone mine, thought to myself "okay, there are 2 uphills, so y'know I'll try to go up the higher one and just keep going up from there and follow the path". I ended up in Slanis basin. I managed to find the bronze golems while wandering after that purely by luck, only to find that honestly they were more south of Parsinia than east, and secondly there were apparently two sandstone mines. Nevermind the fact that the directions could've been improved to say something along the lines of "South of Parsinia past the sandstone mines towards Miner's Mound", the entire adventure could've been rendered moot by simply having a map marker as to where the quest goal actually was. Attempting to find a random quest goal by sporadic text directions that many players don't even read any more is an absurd and frustrating premise, and has to be changed.

    3: Combat

    At this point I have to note that I understand this game is old. It's running off of a lot of ideas from a decade ago that don't make a lot of sense now or have been phased out in favor of new ideas. I also have to note I'm playing a dragon and have little to no idea how exactly the biped classes work or if there ARE set classes that have set skills. However, similarly to the UI, having all the available skills for your character just strung out in a list with no categories for what does what, or if anything combos off or with it, is a little baffling. I honestly have no idea what skills I should be using, or which are best for my playstyle, or even what build I could go for or what stats would be worthwhile to get. And odds are I won't unless I google it, where someone who is way better at this game than me has taken probably a couple of hours out of their day to untangle which skills do what, and which work best with which builds, and what exactly one should aim for combat-wise. And my only question is, why is that necessary? Why have multiple skills that essentially do the same thing? Why have way too many combat skills to fit on a single hotbar because of that clutter? There are almost definitely multiple skills that aren't good to use and which most characters shouldn't use in the current game, with ANY build. And they should almost definitely be cleared out. The only purpose they serve is to confuse and baffle new players. At the same time, though, there SHOULD be skills that lead into other skills, and combos, and rotations- just sitting there smacking something with the autoattack seems lackluster, somehow. In some ways the combat needs to be simpler and more intuitive, and in other ways it should be more complex. And I'd like to note I'm not an advocate of every class having one rotation and that's it- far from it, there should be multiple ways of doing things! But there needs to be some kind of organization, so you know what skills are towards what purpose (damage, debuffing, healing, buffing yourself, etc) are are able to understand those and mix-and-match as you see fit. This also ties in to the UI a bit, in that there's a whole chat window dedicated to combat- why? Does it really mean anything to me if some warrior casts "self-respect" if I have no concept of what that skill does? (aside from wishing it was a castable spell in real life...) An option to see damage caused to you and your party, and to see damage you've done, sure, but far from a separate chat window up by default, that should probably be an option on the main chat window.

    4: Graphics

    Another note here- I know graphics is a ridiculously huge and complex thing to try and revamp or upgrade. The game engine is also a decade old, and trying to switch the game to a new engine, from what I understand, would essentially involve rebuilding the entire game from the ground up, which probably amounts to thousands of hours of work. But it is still an inhibitor of the game's population, and is deserving of mention.

    That's... about it, as far as the major things go, that I have encountered so far. And I'm sorry, I know this is a wall of text, trust me. And I know that I'm new to this game, and really shouldn't be ranting about it (yet), which is also why I put this here instead of in suggestions. But if a new player already has this much to rant about, well, are they really going to want to keep playing? And any feedback is appreciated- especially from older players who have been here for ages, whether assent or dissent.

    Thank you for reading.

  2. #2

    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    1. I personnally, with istaria being my first mmo, found the ui relatively simple to learn, but it definitely has its issues - likely it was easy for me to learn because it was my first mmo, its very different from most others so its difficult for someone who comes from mainstream games to learn. Of note, istaria's UI is very customisable and easily customised simply by dragging windows that aren't locked, I don't think ive played another mmo that has a customisable ui to this extent. As such, UI changes to make it more in stream with modern mmos- a lot of which have a static, set UI- is another discussion entirely on whether thats wanted, and exactly how the UI should be refined considering that question can take very different routes suggestion wise.

    As a side note - everything appears in the menu as an easy way to accessing that window, because not all windows are turned on by default and not all windows need to be - community survey as an example just shows you what plots are in the community you're in, who owns them, price, and dimensions. Also, UI windows are able to to disabled and enabled at will - generally, this means accidental closing of them can be remedied by the esc menu options, so the menu must exist in some form or another.


    2. The map pack exists as a mod and shows where most quest triggers and mob and resource locations are. It's a highly suggested mod for new players. You can suggest to make it an official part of the game though if you feel it will help because that's an entire discussion by itself.

    On quest text/dialogue, though the devs are well aware of the issues with navigation it has (or they should be with how often people complain about it), people will have to send in specific suggestions to get that changed - not just "all the text needs to better!" but "this specific quest, this specific npcs dialogue, and these specific directions should be changed to something I will say is better" because theres a LOT of quests, some of them are honestly fine, some of them include directions in the quest log and some dot and it takes a long time to get quest text from the database to check if it's good especially for EVERY quest dialogue that exists in the game (a lot). Only issue is - old players like me already know where everything is and we don't listen to the quest directions because we don't need to. New players don't know that the above is something they should do to make the game better, and the inevitable fuss and time associated with sending tickets in (which i can't really see a good solution for) making people with those ideas very unlikely to ever submit them. Don't know what do to about that one, because the time it takes for devs to do that is obscene and with a TINY team of devs who're mostly concentrating on the move of graphics engine to unreal, and then on producing much needed content (t4 is still a barren land of little to no content at all), they won't be able to do that on their own volition for a long time.


    3. In any other game, i'd agree with you about the combat window, but in istaria, I wouldn't. Seeing enemies casting combat feedback is sometimes the only indication we have to prepare for attacks we can "counter", though not a literal counter. Because the graphics are awful and most casting animations are exactly the same the combat window is often the only way to tell when somethings coming. For example, Surthiem, an epic boss, has an attack which puts a deadly DoT on us, it has to be cleansed within moments of it landing on us, and for the healer, the healer has to save their group heals for that attack. When i see the "Surthiem is casting combust" feedback, as a mainly healer, thats when i know i should activate my spirit walk (avoids damage) and make sure I don't waste my group heals or cleanses until after it lands, and its also when dragons should make sure he's snarled (snarl being another attack that makes enemies miss). The window goes by fast in epic hunts but i think a lot of us have learned to monitor it when its required.


    4. There's a slow progress to make the graphics engine unreal right now, so already covered (or in the process of being covered, at least). It's actually the other 3 parts that remain in the "istaria was made in 2003 and nothing engine wise has been upgraded since" bracket - certainly for combat anyway.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    Istaria is old-school when it comes to quests. We expect players to do some exploration and we don't hand-hold you to where you need to go. However, as Azath said, if there are quests that are particularly vague we're more than happy to review them and update them (unless the vague directions are on purpose). Just let us know which ones you found confusing.

    However, please know that we won't be adding the "modern" hand-holding for quests that many MMOs do with markers on the map window and a directional indicator and stuff.

    Combat for a Dragon is very different than combat with a biped, due to the number of classes available to bipeds. Dragons are more limited in their tools until much later. That said, we are slowly addressing some schools. We gave the first 10-20 levels of each of the base schools a facelift earlier this year and we're currently revamping the Knight of Creation (biped) school.

    Thanks for taking the time to type up your thoughts for us! And thank you for playing Istaria.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celuria View Post
    Let's be honest- this game is dying. I haven't played for long, but in 2 days I've seen maybe 1 other player. All of the player chats on Chaos are empty, save for a single player-created one- with 3 people, all of whom were AFK when I tried joining and talking in it. I may not have found the main city area- if there is one- but this is one of the emptiest games I've ever played in, and it's a little saddening.
    Considering a dev already addressed your post and I don't have the time to go through everything, I just sort of want to put my two cents in on this little snippet here -

    Are you sure you're on Chaos and if so what is your timezone? I took these screenshots on Chaos yesterday at around 8:00pm EST:



    There was also the grand majority of those people in a voice call on Discord at the same time... so you must have a really sucky timezone if you're seeing only 3 people o.O

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    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    1. I will agree that the UI isn't very straight-forward when you first look at it. However that's made up for with the amount of customization you can do. Every window can be moved and re-sized and tweaked until you find the arrangement that works for you. Every window you could need is available through the menu, and you can set keybindings to open the vast majority of the windows up without going through scavenger hunt.

    2. Getting lost can be frustrating, I understand completely. If you have limited time to play, of course you want to get from A to B with as little detour as possible. The mappack is great for that, though I never used it personally. I do enjoy the game as it is though, the lack of overly obvious indicators means you explore more of the world than you would get to if you simply followed the quests to the simplest and closest location. There's things I would have never known about if I didn't get good and lost every now and then. If you think of the quests as a chance to explore, things get much more entertaining, but I know that's not for everyone. If something is outright confusing, as Amon pointed out, letting the devs know what's confusing specifically is the first step to solving it.

    3. Istaria is an old game, and that means that a lot of things won't change because they simply can't. The game being as old as it is and running on the engine it has, means combat updates are likely never going to happen because it would require essentially re-coding the game. There are always things that go through to improve combat however.

      If a particular mob seems impossible or a horrid grind just to kill one, it's a simple matter of making a suggestion that it needs something changed and it does have a good chance of getting that change. I've seen this happen countless times but one example was the blight hounds: they got a buff that made it nearly impossible to solo one and difficult for two people to kill one too... a few days after that change went through, and a suggestion thread went up, we got a response about blight hounds getting a change to make them easier.

      There's been dozens of new abilities and tweaks to existing abilities that have all improved the combat experience in my time playing as well. The combat system as a whole getting a change can't happen, but every detail can theoretically be changed.

    4. Unreal is on the to-do list, and you can be surprised what tweaking some settings and adding some shaders can do to your experience.


    There is a lot of fluctuation in the population with the time zones of course, so the population you see depends on the time zone you're in sadly... however there should be a good dozen or so people in the MarketPlace and Dragon chats assuming you're on Chaos.
    Last edited by Machaeon; September 24th, 2017 at 03:48 PM.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    thank you for the responses! (and an actual dev, holy cow). and, small correction, I am apparently on blight, which... may be more empty, which is weird for it being a test server, but a full one. was mixing up blight and chaos, whups...

    as far as stuff like "hand holding" in regards to questing, I know there's some emphasis on not wanting to make things TOO easy, or to put it differently, that things should have a certain difficulty. I will admit that there should absolutely be challenges in a game- nothing's as much fun or as rewarding in what boils down to sandbox mode- but there are also things that shouldn't be a challenge. Tough mobs that there's a trick to defeating should be challenging, but in my opinion, unless the mobs are purposefully hidden, just trying to follow instructions and find the things shouldn't be. The challenge should both add something to the gameplay and be rewarding when it's tackled and resolved. With wandering around in the wilderness trying to find a mob, you could make the argument that exploration is rewarding and adds to the gameplay, but for a lot of people it's not, they want to explore on their own time and on their own terms, and not when they're just trying to get something done, and the only reward in that case is getting to beat the mobs up.

    it was also mentioned earlier that for the players that know where everything is, the quest directions aren't really needed, and for new players that do need them, there's not a lot of upfront support. This seems like a strong argument for just adding the quest markers into the base game, especially if the way to do it is already created and implimentable- for the players that don't need it, nothing changes, for the ones that do, it'd be a HUGE boon.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celuria View Post
    it was also mentioned earlier that for the players that know where everything is, the quest directions aren't really needed, and for new players that do need them, there's not a lot of upfront support. This seems like a strong argument for just adding the quest markers into the base game, especially if the way to do it is already created and implimentable- for the players that don't need it, nothing changes, for the ones that do, it'd be a HUGE boon.
    If you want to know where the mobs are, you can download the map pack either in this thread : http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...light=map+pack or through the link given below by Machaeon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machaeon View Post
    2. Getting lost can be frustrating, I understand completely. If you have limited time to play, of course you want to get from A to B with as little detour as possible. The mappack is great for that, though I never used it personally. I do enjoy the game as it is though, the lack of overly obvious indicators means you explore more of the world than you would get to if you simply followed the quests to the simplest and closest location.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    In response to the faults found with this game:
    1. The UI: In my opinion, having played many other games, this game has the best UI of any game. There are so many ways to customize the UI.
    2: Quest directions: I agree some quest "directions" are baffling. I usually overcome this by asking another player or checking one of the player made websites like the Lexica, where I can find the information. It's also possible to jump on the Discord chat and ask there. But why don't you want to wander around and explore? That is one of the fun things to do! Of course, if you're single-minded about grinding up levels as fast as possible, that seems to be a waste of your time. I don't use the map pack but have traveled the world and put my own markers on the map that comes with the game.
    3. The graphics: Yeah, I wish it looked like a Bethesda game. But it doesn't. The devs have made giant steps recently to make the world more interesting.
    4. World population: Heh, I play on Order. Enough said. Except I do know which shard I'm playing on...
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    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    Although a lot has already been said about the UI, I noticed a few things haven't been really pointed out yet, about selecting npcs or mobs for example.

    You actually can do much more than just attack, some of them, wisps for example are alive and can either be killed or gathered from, some need to be dead to be gathered from, both require you to select them before clicking the corresponding button on the action window or by pressing say backspace (default gather) on your keyboard.
    Npcs, well... you select them to trade or greet, if you want you could also buff them haha.

    Next on to the compass, it actually IS included in a minimap. Yeah, there IS a minimap, not much people use it though, if I'm not mistaken M should be your map while N is by default the minimap.

    Now, NPC conversations, could kinda use their own dedicated chat window I guess, but if you greet an NPC, it should (unless it lags, or is stuck, in case nothing happens / it's stuck you could use /loadui command to reload the whole ui and it should pop up with the next greet) open its own conversation window / trade window if you're trading immediatly.

    Then the final thing I'll say about the UI, you mention wanting a hotkey to gather something you've selected or to loot/lootall.
    You can make your own hotkeys, one of the things I love a lot about this UI, you want a hotkey that casts this or does that? Make it.
    Just got to right click a hotkey button on your hotkeybar, select Edit and a whole lot of options appear to make your own hotkey!

    It isn't too hard either to make, say you want one to loot: right click the hotkey button, press edit, select the action you want to add (Textcommand here) then type in the command (/loot or /lootall) & press the + button to add it to the list inside the hotkey, finally save it and there is your loot hotkey.

    If you want, though you'd have to take in consideration the time of cooldown each attack has & how the combat system kinda works, you could just have 1 hotkey that does all your attacks for you, just press one button & it does everything. Depending on your goal for the hotkey, it can be possible.


    About that quest though, where you needed to go kill Bronze Golems. About 90% of the time if you need to follow directions, you should stick to the road, because if you followed the road to the sandstone mine and went left there, following the road still, you should've encountered bronze golems at your right , very near the road. (and at that moment you should be in between 2 hills kinda, not counting that very small hill that's the quarry kinda where all sandstone is)

    And eh, that's kinda all I got to say ATM haha.
    Hope you consider the chaos server once & try it again there, I'm sure you'll find a lot of people (if they're online) willing to explain in New Player Assistance chat, or Marketplace/Dragon chats.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: A Non-Comprehensive list of things that need to change for this game to not die.

    As far as quests go, I don't mind having to run around to find things as long as the quest log has a good enough description of what to look for such as "go down the road, take the right fork, look for the ring of stones, and if you find the railroad tracks you've gone too far."
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