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Talk to the Team: Epic Loot (Implemented)
So, this has come up again as a possible system to implement and we wanted to get feedback from players. We've discussed similar topics in other threads including Rare Loot and so forth, but I wanted a new thread to encompass specific issues related to 2014.
1) This refers to a system by which Epic Mobs (e.g. Valkor, Reklar, Fafnir, Daknor, Son of Gigaroth, Shaloth, etc) would drop a type of Token instead of specific items.
2) These tokens would be traded at one or more vendors who would sell the items the mobs listed above previously dropped. These vendors could also sell additional items, including long-gone items such as Boar's Hide Mask, Rending Blade, Bat of Gnerph, etc.
3) The cost of items would vary, but could have new ones added or removed over time.
The benefit of this system is that it would allow players to fight these epic bosses and earn tokens for items they are interested in. It would broaden the selection of bosses that could be fought for items, reducing the need to camp a specific boss.
The downsides are, of course, that it would make specific drops less special since you could earn tokens from Fafnir or Daknor to buy rare Valkor items.
So, I welcome feedback, suggestions, etc about this proposed system. Thank you!
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Feedback: I have a love-hate relationship with this idea, the benefits are good and all to get rid of camping and for people to kill Fafnir and Daknor more, but the other downside i could see is people not killing Reklar or SoG (why SoG? well he takes about 30-50 mins now, no one like Soggy :( ) anymore cause you can just buy the items they drop from the tokens you get from an easier boss. It would also take away the rarity in items if you think about it.
Also, (dont think this matters but) if you bought Valkor items would it really make them 'Valkor items' if 'valkor' isnt dropping them?
Question: If we did get this system would Valkor & Reklar pieces be buyable or would they come whole?
Suggestion: Since Reklar and SoG (and Shaloth, she already doesnt get any love) would probably not get any love if we did this. I think we should do something like this...
Shaloth token = 15g Reklar token = 10g SoG token = 6g Valkor token = 5g Fafnir token = 4g Daknor token = 4g (the prices would probably be different due to how much the epic weapons would be)
I think Tokens should be different prices judging by who you loot it from, the badder it is the more its worth!
Like I said at first, love-hate relationship with this so i dont know.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I am not sure but my worry is that this would increase camping these mobs and maybe a bit of strife between people.
Most people who I knew on chaos (its been a few months) had multiple characters and log ins. Often only a few people kill SoG at a time. Some high leveled multiple classed characters or a few dragons with alts but 1 person behind the controls to kill him. I worry that this would discourage working as a team to kill him. Though I could be wrong.
Also would those tokens be trade able or character bound?
If character bound it would be necessary for those in groups to /random before looting (usually in groups I have been in 1 person loots and then everyone rolls for it who wants the item and then highest wins and the looter trades the item to them)
Just a few things to consider.
:)
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Let Fafnir, Gruk, Daknor and Shaloth drop token(as they do not have an own epic loot-except Shaloths piece and potion)-
and leave Reklar, Sog and Valkor the way they are,
but token could be changed into Reklar, SoG and Valkor pieces(!) too.
It should be easier and faster to hunt the 3 bosses than go for token.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
A huge resounding YES from me, especially if it includes possible long-gone items!! EDIT: As a happy medium, Lov's idea is wonderful too ;)
As one of the people Agua is talking about (multi-logins killing epics) I welcome anything that could increase interest in these mobs! I don't think it would increase camping, if anything the opposite. If Valkor has just been killed (or worse, not spawning or broke entirely) then we can just move onto any other Epic and kill it instead with an equal chance of the same desired reward. However, I do also very much like Satturn's idea of different amounts of tokens dropping (that's the way I interpreted the Shaloth=15g etc.).
It would be great to have some of these very dangerous but hugely neglected mobs to have a purpose. I don't really think it makes the items less special since you obviously still had to kill many epics to collect the tokens, just as long as named T6 mobs don't make that list and it's kept to the true epics.
The only bit of concern I have is how to handle the differences between the 'whole' items and those which require parts. Will SoG's weapons remain as a whole, or will they be broken into parts? If they remain intact, will they be 4-5 times more expensive than a Valkor/Reklar weapon piece? Or will Reklar/Valkor weapons be sold as completed? If they're kept in their current state, would that mean someone may still be require to hunt 100+ epics to earn enough tokens to buy a Demogii (I kinda hope so :p )
OT: To be honest though, and I don't think I'm alone here, if you want to drum up interest in the current epic mobs which drop pieces or whole weapons, you really need to boost the items themselves please! Besides the Demon Flurry, the rest are just for show. Crafted items give better boosts in many cases. I think to give them a real uniqueness, you need to add the chance for some awesome buffs or debuffs. The staves (Demon and Blood) have these now but the rest of the weapons and armor aren't worth the precious inventory space, given these things take a huge chunk of bulk.
Whatever avenue you take, whatever everyone else thinks, it's just good to know this is still important and something you are looking into, as it is important to me too ;)
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
My take on this idea would be something like this:
The quest idea-
Players pick up a quest to "Kill Reklar" from the Reklar token vendor. If they get in on a kill and do some amount of damage or healing, and Reklar is killed, the quest finishes. Turn in for a token worth some value (say 1/5th of 1 piece). Also, the boss can drop a token, or even rarely a whole piece, to be random'd for. So, I have incentive to at least participate on kills, even if my chances at winning the random are often low, I always get one token after turning in the quest. After some kills, even loosing all the random's, I can exchange tokens for the piece I need. 5 kill quests completed = 5 tokens, 5 tokens = 1 piece, the old existing pieces we have now such as "Tail 1 of 4".
And thinking back on all the kills I have been in on, 1 token = 1/5th of a piece might be took much. On chaos anyway, Reklar gets killed quite a bit. Anyone who really wants his items and works for them, gets them. so maybe 10 tokens = 1 piece. And for items like tail and sash, where only 4 pieces are needed to complete it, those pieces can cost more than the pieces for say Cudgel or Chakram, which take more pieces to craft. (my values of the tokens is just an example. Dev's can make each token worth more of less as they see fit).
I believe they should all have different tokens. If I want a Reklar Item, I should have to hunt Reklar, not farm Daknor, or dual-box farm SoG. Which can still be done, it just takes longer. (And the separate token idea works in well for the BHM idea below).
Since one of the ideas behind the switch to a token system, would be to try and get more hunts going for Fafnir, Gruk, Daknor, perhaps those three's tokens could buy some of the other old weapons such as Mace of Divine Intervention, The Zealot, The Rancor, or even set piece jewelry (give these items a bit of a boost first though). To make it interesting, these three's tokens could purchase a "present" item, which when used, gives a random piece of the old set piece jewelry.
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Something really desired like a Boar's Mask, should require tokens from all the above. There's probably some way to make this work.. Perhaps each boss's tokens would buy only one specific piece of the boars mask, and it would be craftable. So repeated hunts for all 7 (don't leave out Gruk) would be needed to get all 7 pieces (Gruk the Frigid, Fafnir, Daknor, Son of Gigaroth, Valkor, Shaloth, Reklar. 7 bosses). Say, 20 tokens from each boss, buys that x of 7 piece. (Again, dev's can adjust this value as they see fit).
So, there would be 7 vendors, which both issue the quests to kill their boss, as well as exchange tokens for pieces/forms/items. Each vendor can be in some place in the world. Reklar vendor should be a dragon out of Dralk someplace, perhaps same one that hands out the Primal Boon spell.
I say items, since Sog's items have always been looted whole. Just multiply the cost in tokens up appropriately, or those could be converted to crafted items.
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Mulling this idea over, some players will think the conversion rate I suggest for tokens to pieces is high, but I still feel it is a bit low. We don't want people to farm them for a month and then be done. Then we would be right back where we started.
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One important portion of this, would be to make sure all the items are worth acquiring. The curses on Reklars Tail, Cudgel (and chakram?) which increase incoming damage when fighting undead should be reversed, the damage against undead should be lowered a bit instead. Sog's Demon Axe's bleed effect should be made Aoe again. The Blood Talon should cast ethereal leech VI. The Bloodthorn bow should have the delay lowered to 30. The Demon Spike should have 11% chance for 1 extra attacks.
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A few new weapons might need to be thrown in the mix as well, to help sweeten the offerings available from the Gruk/Daknor/Fafnir vendors: A Dagger, A Shilleagh, Handwraps. Use existing weapons/models in the game, which might be decent epic weapons with some re-tooling.
Another way to maybe get the lower bosses some love, is require maybe 1 token from a gruk kill along with the normal count of Reklar tokens, to trade for the reklar piece (assuming there is a way to have a vendor charge 2 different token types for 1 item).
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The quest method at least returns some small reward for a players participation, regardless of winning a random.
Individual token types for every boss ensures they all get some hunts. And I can't farm daknor to get a valkor item. This would totally cheapen the tough bosses' items. This is my biggest point concerning this whole idea of token drops, being able to spend one bosses tokens on something else. That is a no-go piece of the idea for me.
Tokens should be sellable/tradeable. No point attuning them since the end pieces must remain trade-able, since they may need traded to a crafter. This might encourage some marketplace activity.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Tokens are good idea, though, they should simply replace the bosses loot table. I mean, Valkor would drop Valkor tokens for Valkors pieces. Having easier bosses drop equivalent tokens would make the harder bosses not worth the time, especially if you can box your own group up to do so.
Introduce some new loot with some of the unloved bosses, so that their tokens are worthwhile. Have items requiring a combination of tokens to get.
I can see the camping for Boar's Hide Masks now ... all you're missing is block jewelry and ds/dmg crystals!
The idea behind the tokens here to give everyone something for their time and effort put into the hunts instead of rolling randoms and hoping for the best is awesome. No time wasted.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Thanks for the feedback thus far. I think 7 tokens and vendors is a no-go for us, its potentially VERY confusing and a pain to manage and setup.
One thing we'd already planned was to have bosses drop different amounts of tokens (based on difficulty) and also have different items have differing values (so yes, items like Boar's Hide Mask or Demongii would be VERY expensive). The need to re-assemble items would remain as they are now.
I like the idea of a quest to get extra tokens, perhaps a daily.
Currently items range from 20 to 50 Tokens (Valkor and Reklar item components), 200 to 400 Tokens (SoG items, Boar's Hide Mask), to 1000 or more for Epic spells (using the effects not in-game such as Soul Gate, Wrath of the Power Demon, Fireflies, etc).
Bosses would drop anywhere from 10 to 50 (based on difficulty).
One additional consideration is that we're looking into the possibility of having Tier 6 Anchors drop these Tokens as well. Thoughts?
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I love the idea that bosses would drop enough tokens that everyone who participates can come away with something for their efforts.
Yes please include t6 anchors.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I have to side the other way on this. I don't see anything wrong with the system at the moment.
It encourages group play and organised events.
I see the new system just being somewhat chaotic. ie, what if a group is already fighting say Reklar and somebody else just jumps in towards the end and gets a Token.
This style of guaranteed drop system only leads to 'ninja style' of play and we all know it took long enough to get rid of that from Istaria, at the expense of a few Guilds albeit.
If people want said shiney items then they have to work and trade for them. Devaluing epic items is not the way forward, they are Epic loot but they are not 'needed' to play or kill any Boss.
Increase the list of items dropped to include those never used Epic spells by all means, it will encourage more group play. Or even set the system up for the new items but leave the old ones alone.
I personally think inventing an 'End game' situation is a slippery slope that no other MMO has been able to do so why add Istaria to that list.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I agree with this to a point. Hunts for items would kind of lull off - If there's no epic drop, there's no reason to roll and compete for it or even organize special hunts. That being said, it is very hard to win special items - *ahem* Demon Claw - and tokens would be a good to help create a few more of these. :) The one that mentioned that token values should go up as the teir of creature you're fighting does - more worth for Shaloth and Reklar than Fafnir and Daknor - seemed to be on to something there. Maybe the lesser epics drop "Lesser Epic Tokens" worth 4g (or whatever currency), the mid-range bosses such as SoG drop "Epic Tokens" worth 6g and the higher range bosses like Reklar and Shaloth drop "Greater Epic Tokens" worth 8g. Just a twist on an already good idea proposed below without customizing each and every epic mob.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Amon was saying they would just change the quantity if tokens dropped in place of the value. It accomplishes same thing.
If they refuse to do separate tokens for each boss, (probably because they do not want to have to create new drops for the lower bosses) then I think the respawn timers of all these bosses needs increased. This way, a typical hunt group will go from boss 1 to boss 2, etc. and include the lower bosses in the cycle.
If the number of tokens dropped is fairly high, that would make them easy to divide. So instead of random'ing, we could just evenly split them, and maybe random for the 1 or 2 leftovers. This I think would be acceptable.
But I would much prefer that the lower bosses had their own loot, and that we had to hunt reklar to get reklar pieces.
If you go with a single token and a single vendor, the "prices" should be much higher than what I originally speculated. And the respawn timers should go up to maybe 4 to 6 hours. This will encourage all the little bosses to get hit.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I actually love this idea. I get tired of walking away with nothing for weeks at a time with the current loot / random system in epic fights... that frustration usually leads me to avoid them for awhile but then the lure of hunting epics calls me back. Some meaningful walk away would just make it more interesting. Bringing back legacy items for those patient enough to hoard their tokens is great.
I dont think multiple vendors is that complicated. The setup might be complex but it's not anywhere near impossible. That would give a lot of flexibility as well.
Regardless, this is an interesting raiding scenario that would allow multiple groups to fight for benefit rather than the same group fighting all of the epics in endless cycles day in and day out then charging your first born for their work.
-Vara
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Is it 'one' drop of tokens per boss kill that need to be randomed and shared?, or is it an amount of tokens to each player per boss kill automatically?
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I like Guaran's quest idea to kill Reklar and come back to get a token or more for helping. :)
The idea to have the boss drop 10-50 tokens, you would probably have to roll for some amount of them if group isn't even.. so its kinda going back to the rolling for pieces idea. It would be easier for them to drop a Greater token so you can roll and be done. (that is worth more then ones you get from quest, all bosses would drop them and give same amount) or drop a weapon piece unless were totally getting rid of weapon dropping. Then you could return the quest and get 1-10 tokens depending on boss you killed.
Oh and please add anchors too, they need some love too
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chasing
Is it 'one' drop of tokens per boss kill that need to be randomed and shared?, or is it an amount of tokens to each player per boss kill automatically?
There is no system for group loot in Istaria so it would be one "batch" of tokens per kill. Split them however you like. Entertaining the daily quest idea as a way to acquire a few more individually as well.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I'm sorry if my post doesn't reflect the previous posts, I don't have much time to write this.
From my experiences of doing epic battles, I welcome the idea of a token system. Yes it can reduce the sense of accomplishment once you finally craft that five piece item you waited so long for, but that's my problem. A piece that you may not see for such a long time, you begin to lose interest in it. I am my own victim at that. And of course, there is always a lack of a piece you want on the market, and some are just never for sale. whether that person owned it already or not.
I can't say how long I have been waiting for 1 or 2 pieces of something, especially adding on the fact that an epic group was hard for me to find, let alone the proper time to log on and join. I'm sure there are others like me in the same situation. Personally I feel it winds down to small, personal groups.
If tokens were dropped, this means that if you do manage to get a spot in one of these groups, you can at least know for certain that your time is going towards an item that you want, not a piece you have no intention of using, or a chance that the epic emptied its pockets before attacking. (Love those days, don't you?)
Now, a token from any boss for any weapon or item is foolish, of course. What if it were something like boss-specific tokens? Example, fight Rekkles? You get a token to go towards Reklar items, not Valky or SoG, etc. As well as that, only the bosses that drop item pieces, should drop tokens. This would exclude SoG, etc, from the list since he drops whole weapons.
That's my basic suggestion anyway. After all, I am only speaking from experience, not facts and spreadsheets here ;) At least this way, everyone makes progress.
Cheers for hearing me out.
- That ol' purple.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
Thanks for the feedback thus far. I think 7 tokens and vendors is a no-go for us, its potentially VERY confusing and a pain to manage and setup.
One thing we'd already planned was to have bosses drop different amounts of tokens (based on difficulty) and also have different items have differing values (so yes, items like Boar's Hide Mask or Demongii would be VERY expensive). The need to re-assemble items would remain as they are now.
I like the idea of a quest to get extra tokens, perhaps a daily.
Currently items range from 20 to 50 Tokens (Valkor and Reklar item components), 200 to 400 Tokens (SoG items, Boar's Hide Mask), to 1000 or more for Epic spells (using the effects not in-game such as Soul Gate, Wrath of the Power Demon, Fireflies, etc).
Bosses would drop anywhere from 10 to 50 (based on difficulty).
One additional consideration is that we're looking into the possibility of having Tier 6 Anchors drop these Tokens as well. Thoughts?
Ossum. Hz rez inc!
It's funny that someone earlier in game was mentioning how it would cheapen their collection stockpile if something like this were implemented... yet, if it meant that it would draw more interest in doing some of these boss encounters, that it could be an awesome benefit server overall. Stir up some activity 'end game' and not just the rating grind or city build.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Perhaps the epics and not so epic named ones could drop some of the legacy formulas and techniques that no longer drop...?
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
Thanks for the feedback thus far. I think 7 tokens and vendors is a no-go for us, its potentially VERY confusing and a pain to manage and setup.
One thing we'd already planned was to have bosses drop different amounts of tokens (based on difficulty) and also have different items have differing values (so yes, items like Boar's Hide Mask or Demongii would be VERY expensive). The need to re-assemble items would remain as they are now.
I like the idea of a quest to get extra tokens, perhaps a daily.
Currently items range from 20 to 50 Tokens (Valkor and Reklar item components), 200 to 400 Tokens (SoG items, Boar's Hide Mask), to 1000 or more for Epic spells (using the effects not in-game such as Soul Gate, Wrath of the Power Demon, Fireflies, etc).
Bosses would drop anywhere from 10 to 50 (based on difficulty).
One additional consideration is that we're looking into the possibility of having Tier 6 Anchors drop these Tokens as well. Thoughts?
If you go this route, I would just say make the item pieces more expensive, and the Boars mask should cost the same as the new epic spells.
I'm just worried that a month will pass, and everyone will be done with epic hunts.
I do think some new system, which can reward every group member equally, is a positive step forward.
I like that you want to include Fafnir, Gruk, Daknor in the mix.
Not a fan of the idea that Daknor could be farmed for tokens and someone could get a Reklar item.... This just makes Reklar hunts obsolete. Would still much prefer that the lower bosses dropped their own token types, purchasable for their specific weapons. (You could recycle the Rancor, Zealot, Mace of Divine intervention, or make a few new epic weapons as I suggested before. It really shouldn't be that difficult. Epic handwraps (15% chance for 1 extra attacks), healer mace/cudgel, dagger that mages can use, etc.).
There's many ways a daily quest could be done. My first quest idea was that the quest would allow all the players to get some reward, regardless of who won the random for any dropped loot. You can probably accomplish the same by having the big number of tokens drop, which we can divide evenly. So the quest for additional tokens may not be needed.
However, a quest to kill some bosses could help ensure those bosses are hunted. Mainly thinking of the lower bosses. So a quest could be to "Kill Daknor, Kill Fafnir, Kill Gruk" and then award a "token bag" which works like the coin bags do. Open it up and you are awarded a random number of tokens between x and y. Say 6 to 18. Or it could just award a set number. But perhaps a quest like this one would help ensure that those three bosses are hunted, so it still might have a place. Maybe have another grouping which includes the more difficult bosses, and awards a larger return. The quests would just ensure the bosses are more evenly hunted, rather than one being farmed over and over. The quests could give larger rewards than the average drop count from bosses divided by average group size. So players would want to do the quests, and therefore ensures that all the bosses would be getting regular hunts. If the quests give the largest rewards, and each quest requires multiple bosses to be hunted, this could work out nice. Quests would be limited to once a day or something.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I haven't read everyone's suggestions but I have to say yes please to the possiblity of getting Reklar's tail scale on Order. I had come to the conclusion a few years back the only way it would happen is if I level my chaos hatchling, finally get the scale and pay for a character transfer to get the scale to Order. I think I can count on one hand how many times Dracaena on Order has killed Reckler, and still have fingers left over.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I Love the idea of this , no more soggy tooth picks as loot.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I sign ALL Guaran`s suggestions.
Esp. the concerns.
All other I am really not sure if its real progress- or the direction it should go.
As said: Not sure
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dracaena
I haven't read everyone's suggestions but I have to say yes please to the possiblity of getting Reklar's tail scale on Order. I had come to the conclusion a few years back the only way it would happen is if I level my chaos hatchling, finally get the scale and pay for a character transfer to get the scale to Order. I think I can count on one hand how many times Dracaena on Order has killed Reckler, and still have fingers left over.
Yes to this. I'd support the tokens just for this problem even if they were specific to that mob and its components only. When you are running five to six months of near non-stop Reklar and can't even get tail piece 3 to drop and have seen only sash piece 4 drop once in that time, then the fun factor gets completely lost. I could even understand it if the rarer components to finish the entire epic item cost more in tokens than the others because at least the hard work would pay off to earning the full item rather than six months of utter frustration and eventually being defeated by a culmination of nothing for the time and effort.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
what about leaving current loot the way it is, but add tokens as part of the loot drop chance to drop a single token. as for venders maybe make the pieces cost 20 tokens, the repair form say 10 tokens more than one piece or a whole item for say as a example 10 tokens more than the combined cost of pieces needed + the repair formula. example if a item needs 5 pieces to make whole, at 20 tokens per piece and 30 tokens for the form, that's 140 tokens
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
I agree with this to a degree. The only thing wrong with the current system is the drop chances, and something is needed to alleviate that - either even out the drop rates or have the boss drop a token (or tokens) that can be exchanged for any piece (or some of the old pieces!) from that one boss at a vendor. Old items could be attached to different bosses - hunt Reklar for his tokens and either 1) Use the tokens to get the piece that has been evading you or 2) Save up the tokens for a while longer and get that otherwise unacquirable Boar's Mask, hunt Valkor and stockpile tokens to buy the talon piece you want or save up a while longer and get a Zealot,. And so on...
I don't think any changes to the system are needed beyond that. Admittedly, some messing around with token drop chances or the price of the old items at the vendors would have to be done to allow people to complete items in a timely manner while still making the old items the tokens could also be exchanged for not easily acquired.
Edit: The idea to have a daily quest to (For ex) kill Reklar and get some tokens to be exchanged eventually for any Reklar piece also seems quite nice - would take tokens out of the loot table for Reklar himself to give more room to the actual pieces, while still giving everyone at least something useful for killing him.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
Thanks for the feedback thus far. I think 7 tokens and vendors is a no-go for us, its potentially VERY confusing and a pain to manage and setup.
One thing we'd already planned was to have bosses drop different amounts of tokens (based on difficulty) and also have different items have differing values (so yes, items like Boar's Hide Mask or Demongii would be VERY expensive). The need to re-assemble items would remain as they are now.
I like the idea of a quest to get extra tokens, perhaps a daily.
Currently items range from 20 to 50 Tokens (Valkor and Reklar item components), 200 to 400 Tokens (SoG items, Boar's Hide Mask), to 1000 or more for Epic spells (using the effects not in-game such as Soul Gate, Wrath of the Power Demon, Fireflies, etc).
Bosses would drop anywhere from 10 to 50 (based on difficulty).
One additional consideration is that we're looking into the possibility of having Tier 6 Anchors drop these Tokens as well. Thoughts?
Single token then. Varying amounts dropped from bosses, and price accordingly the items available. We know this tech already exists in game, Imperial Rank Tokens, etc. Bottom line I think here is the idea of giving everyone a chance for boss encounters as well as reward them for time put in. This guaranteed loot alone should motivate plenty of people. It's unfortunate that those whom already have the rarities would lose value, but they're also the same people who stay ahead in the game. There isn't much you could do to deter them.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I've stayed relatively quiet on this topic so far but in my view the tokens are needed to fix the current issue.
Also i'd say yes to including T6anchors in the list of epics.
As for anyone who thinks the current system is fine.... try building rekkies tail.scale. atleast or order to my knowledge no one has it.
Excellent work on this devs keep it up.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Had another thought regarding this.
1. Change the components so that all "Epic" items share components similar to the Broken Item system
2. Epic bosses drop 1 required component for each weapon making them still desired to hunt
3. Item Components are purchased using Tokens that are earned from looting the bosses or daily quests
4. Formulas, and this is a crazy idea, could be either a) Unlimited use but would be very expensive or b) one-time use and much cheaper
Thoughts?
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
All sound good to me, but on #4 why have a one-time formula instead of a potion/scroll/other single-use item? Formulas should not self-delete, imo - too scary & confusing if unexpected.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
1. Change the components so that all "Epic" items share components similar to the Broken Item system
Quote:
2. Epic bosses drop 1 required component for each weapon making them still desired to hunt
In my opinion, some items currently require too many pieces to make. The tail piece requires four, which is nice, but the chakram and the cudgel requiring 6 is too much. Instead of requiring one actual piece from the boss, I think it'd be better for require 2, at the most 3 for those things that are to be rarer than the rest. 1 actual piece from the epic mob I would say is too little, and 6 is too much. Adding tokens required to trade at vendors for some bits you need for the weapon would make 2-3 actual pieces from the epic mob just right. Personally, requiring a player to get some bits from a vendor to compete an epic weapon is undesirable. Oh, you found this beautifully crafted axe in the treasure chest of the hoard of that dragon you killed...! But whoops, the handle is missing, go visit a vendor and get one that'll fit. Just, 'ugh' to that.
Quote:
4. Formulas, and this is a crazy idea, could be either a) Unlimited use but would be very expensive or b) one-time use and much cheaper
I like the way the forms for epic mobs work currently, and adding a one-time-use form might make the permanent forms sorta obsolete - why buy a permanent one when you can save a whole bunch of time buying the one time use? However, if the one time use was only cheaper instead of much cheaper, I think adding in one time use forms could be beneficial - but, without knowing how much cheaper you had in mind, can't say much on that.
A sufficient change might be to just make all items take 3-4 pieces to make (5 with the form, but you can use those over and over), even out the loot tables percent-change-to-drop wise, and it's all good. Currently, there are so many pieces that evening out the loot tables wouldn't help. More pieces means you have a smaller chance of seeing that one piece you want. Less pieces with each one having an even chance to drop would help a lot with getting 'that final piece needed'. Far less work than adding vendors/etc, too.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I can`t say that I `m enthusiastic about your new ideas Amon.
And Alisto- I disagree that 6 parts are too much for the few parts that are worth hunting for.
Am I the only one who says that most of the epic loot is obsolete and hardly worth hunting for,
cause crafted items teched and socketed are much better?.
Thats the prob I see.
And do not tell me the epic loot is for non-crafters: That is what broken items are for.
We do NOT need more of that.
What we need is NEW loot and NEW challenges
Those who are able to hunt bosses do not want old ones with only a face lift, some Botox and modern dresses.
Sorry if I repeat what others and I have said many times before:
Give us Faffnir, Gruck & Co and some nice NEW loot-instead of beating the dead horses..( SoG Valkor Reklar)
Those indeed need some refreshment- but the probs are not solved with new (easier?) methods to win old fashioned loot .
BTW- Daknor never was obsolete or boring- nor his loot!
What does he have-others do not have??
He seems as young as he was when he entered Istaria :P
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
Had another thought regarding this.
1. Change the components so that all "Epic" items share components similar to the Broken Item system
2. Epic bosses drop 1 required component for each weapon making them still desired to hunt
3. Item Components are purchased using Tokens that are earned from looting the bosses or daily quests
4. Formulas, and this is a crazy idea, could be either a) Unlimited use but would be very expensive or b) one-time use and much cheaper
Thoughts?
4 - is certianly a crazy idea! haha, the forms work quite well as they are - especially, as awdz pointed out, it would be agitating and annoying to have the unexpected event of it deleting itself. Even if they were cheap i would still not desire them to be bought...
Also means (With current system) that you need to hunt the mob you want the epic thing from no matter what sort of token system is introduced.
1 - sounds kinda nice. I presume meaning they'd drop e.g. epic item axe peice, epic item staff peice, epic item handle peice etc. And with a formula - say for a sword - you'd need x amout of handle, x amount of sword peices. Also is assuming that all epics would have a chance to drop any peice? Or, would it be only peices of stuff they produce? Like - you have to hunt reklar for tail peices to drop as it wouldn't drop form valk?
3/2 - As for dailies, i don't know whether i like the idea yet. It really depends on what sort of daily it would be. (myself, i think it should give you a quest for an epic mob, you hunt/kill the mob, and instead of the mob dropping x amount of tokens or whatever, the quest would give you the tokens as a reward. Everyone gets fair amount of tokens. Although, it would work much better as a quest that can be repeated rather than a "daily" (daily infers once per day)).
Hunting the epic needed is a yes. I'm certain is has already been raised in this thread - you need to hunt the mob, no easy way of getting one.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
What we need is NEW loot and NEW challenges
I agree with this! But first, I think we should find a loot system that works, as well as changes to make drops worth it, so you don't spend another year or so hunting for that one piece to get something that makes you take /more/ damage off of Fafnir as opposed to hunting that tail scale 3 piece off of Reklar which is also worse than crafted. Admittedly, I wouldn't mind the low drop chances if some of the epic items weren't awful, but even then I'd say some of the pieces still need drop-chance changes.
I don't mean to say that 6 pieces is too 'hard' or anything - merely that (if this makes sense >_>) removing some pieces would allow more 'room' on the loot table for the rarer items to have a chance to drop. I don't know how the game decides what drops, so I'm going with a circle and a spinner pointer thing at the center and when you kill the boss, the spinner spins and points to a piece, and pieces take up this or that percentage of the circle and thus have a greater or smaller chance to drop. In case any part of my post was unclear, Love ^^ Also, imo, none of the pieces are truly worth what it takes to get them from a purely "I want that item in order to increase my killing/defensive effectiveness." If I did not RP, I probably wouldn't hunt them at all.
I've probably said this already, but I agree with Azath on the point of daily quests.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Token systems are always an interesting trade-off.
Stop dropping items nobody wants, everyone gets a small step towards a big goal (rather than one or two people getting a big goal and everyone else being empty handed.) It does encourage sniping the "easier" targets in a farm-style, but it also provides a good deal more incentive. Everyone will want every boss, because tokens are tokens. It takes some of the erratic randomness of a potential forever-grind (bad luck, bad drops, bad rolls) to a simple matter-of-time. For better or worse? It's hard to say.
If there are bosses that are rarely killed and drops that people can almost never get, then I say tokens may be best, or some sort've crafted-approach. Something to enable people to obtain what they want with a good deal of work - being utterly victim to the devious RNG can really just not be fun after long enough. Or maybe even a mix of tokens + small chance of an item, or something else. Some kind of incentive for people who have extra tokens or don't really need them for X items may be nice - extra things beyond the normal look to provide encouragement for folks to help out with token droppers, just as a thought.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I read all about this new idea and I just think.....what's the point?
Just add them to the Vet Reward window.
It's not like they are needed or will even be hunted by most. I know I don't own one 'Epic piece' on my Dragon and it's not stopped me from hunting everything in-game effectively.
It's fluff but it's far from being important fluff.
This game survives because of the crafting. End of.
Give some love to the crafters, new style of tools, new plot structures (not like the pointless Barn thou) T6 craft suits?
Yes, I hunt but I also craft now and know where my time is spent now. Do you think crafters all enjoy looking the same in there Ironsilk cargo outfits all holding the same tool?
The point i'm making is Epic loot is good if it gets some of the spell effects and items that were once claimed to be lost back in the game but I know a lot of people that don't even own a char with more than 1 Adventure school on it, let alone think about 'End game' hunting. They spend everyday crafting plots or Items for these 'Hunters' so I think it's about time they got some love rather that the 10 or so players that actually hunt Epic bosses ;)
The new items can be put in as Vet rewards, job done. No time wasted on 'ideas' and that time can be spent on keeping crafters happy for once.....like a craftbook that actually holds all the forms without attempting to crash the game when opening it ect..
Many idea's for crafting are on the forums recently and I don't think one has been answered even thou as we all know Crafters pay the wages ;)
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I get the point Sind-
And do agree with you here and there.
But again- I could imagine, that both is possible, cause both would need different ressources- means different devs.
Anyway- I would not mind if crafters will get some love first.
But this is not what this thread is about.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sindala
I read all about this new idea and I just think.....what's the point?
Just add them to the Vet Reward window.
It's not like they are needed or will even be hunted by most. I know I don't own one 'Epic piece' on my Dragon and it's not stopped me from hunting everything in-game effectively.
It's fluff but it's far from being important fluff.
Lov pointed out that loot needs to be better, and Alisto improved on that saying we need a loot system that works first. (i mean, i want a tail scale but for any if at all improvements to be useful to it, people need to actually have the loot to get one first.)
If epic loot was good people might consider it "needed" but first, we need a system that works.
And FYI - on order at least, i know many who leap at the chance of epic hunts - some, just to hunt, but most for the epic loot. If used right, some of the loot can be used effectively - only some though, like i see people hunt valkor but not for the staff. If it was all effective/usefull...then i cycle around to neeidng a new system!
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
1. Change the components so that all "Epic" items share components similar to the Broken Item system
2. Epic bosses drop 1 required component for each weapon making them still desired to hunt
3. Item Components are purchased using Tokens that are earned from looting the bosses or daily quests
4. Formulas, and this is a crazy idea, could be either a) Unlimited use but would be very expensive or b) one-time use and much cheaper
Thoughts?
If what you're suggesting with 1,2, and 3 is that you get the necessary (insert epic gear name here) piece from the mob and then you need X amount of (insert chunk of applicable material type here) that you purchase from a vendor using looted tokens to make the epic item I think that's reasonable... certainly less irritating than trying for a specific piece that never drops. Would basically make it: once you get the one piece and the form for the item you want, you're golden! Just grind away at the respective mob until you've got enough tokens to pay for the necessary amount of broken pieces and poof! There's your epic item. The number of necessarily looted pieces I'd certainly be happy to negotiate, any improvement from the current "Kill and hope for loot, then hope it's the one you're looking for, then hope you win it in a roll" is what I'm looking for. As for daily quests giving you the tokens, why not just make it a repeatable kill X epic mob quest like Azath said? That way, all participants receive some benefit from the hunt even if they don't get the dropped item(s). Would certainly be a good way to encourage more participation in hunts.
As for 4, I don't see any reason to buy a formula more than once, however cheap it may be... I only grudgingly bought the same forms more than once as a necessity to work my alts up to a decent level of craft. Disappearing forms after a certain amount of use is not something I'd agree with, just one more thing on the ever-growing list of things to keep track of. I'd much rather pay a high price for a very useful or desirable form than have to buy it over and over again every time I want to use it.
I've also gotta agree with LOVWRYM and Azath, not having any epic items whatsoever hasn't impacted my ability to hunt efficiently. There's hardly an epic item I wouldn't want at some point but I don't need them as I can craft things just as nice and with the level 100 crystals in them even better! New loot and new items? Sign me up right away! Only new lore like what was in the Crystalshaper update can get me out of whatever crafting I happen to be doing at the moment quicker than that ;)
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I appreciate all of your feedback. I wanted to let you know that work on this system is underway. Along those lines, Epic Bosses are being divided into two types - Greater and Lesser.
Greater: Valkor, Reklar, SoG, and Shaloth.
Lesser: Daknor, Fafnir, Gruk and Surtheim.
Are there any others you would consider "epic" that might fit the Lesser category?
Some other possibilities: Avatar of Pain, Zhaguxal (Colossal Scorpion), Spirit of Dralnok, Elial, Rift Guardians.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
I appreciate all of your feedback. I wanted to let you know that work on this system is underway. Along those lines, Epic Bosses are being divided into two types - Greater and Lesser.
Greater: Valkor, Reklar, SoG, and Shaloth.
Lesser: Daknor, Fafnir, Gruk and Surtheim.
Are there any others you would consider "epic" that might fit the Lesser category?
Some other possibilities: Avatar of Pain, Zhaguxal (Colossal Scorpion), Spirit of Dralnok, Elial, Rift Guardians.
Avatar of pain = yes
Zhaguxal = Yes
Dralnok = No
Elial = Yes
the fiery rift thingy (sorry can't remember its name) = possible??
Greater and lesser blight anchors = Possibles?
the only reason i would say no to the other rift guardians is that make epics too common and are they reallly epic any longer?
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I would say no to Surtheim, Gruk, Dralnok and Zhaguxal. - going under the assumption I'm not wrong and Gruk is that uber-pygmy similar to Furahrage >_> Barring pulling surrounding mobs (and even then...) I can waddle to any of those mobs and kill them alone on a dragon on a dragon in armor scales without techs specifically geared towards fighting that mob.
Yes to Elial! He's the only one who gives me trouble in the Rift
*prods Arzy* Guardian of Rage - I'd say he's strong enough to be lesser, as is the lesser anchor. Stick the Greater anchor with Valkor and them.
Also, any chance of buffs to Reklar's Tail scale? It's not even like the Talon anymore where I'd use it in a certain situation - I'd never use it, because any scale with the Grand Magus tech kit is far superior.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Avatar of Pain...never battled him, so no comment.
I'd disagree with Zhaguxal, he is very possible to solo with a dragon (in fact, I might have been an adult when I soloed him for the Breath of Acid quest), and "epic" mobs should not be soloable.
I agree about no for Dralnok, he's a pushover.
Elial...doesn't Lantenal only give a certain amount of tokens for bipeds to enter his portal to Peak of Storms? Which would mean this greatly excludes bipeds from hunting him? Doesn't really seem fair.
Fiery rift thingy...the Guardian of Rage? Possibly as a lesser.
Anchors...agreed, those are pretty much ignored unless someone is on the Unsung Heroes quest.
-Edit-
@Alisto: Gruk is the named Aegror...Gruk the Frigid. Not someone I ever try to mess with solo, and is actually a mob that has been considered epic (afaik) since it came out.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cilok
and "epic" mobs should not be soloable.
well working on that theory Guardian of rage is no then since i know atleast one dragon to have solo'd him
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Calyndrell
well working on that theory Guardian of rage is no then since i know atleast one dragon to have solo'd him
I was unsure of that, which is why I said "possibly" in my response.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
No to Zhaguxal and Surtheim (can be killed in 2 GRs..)
Yes to the rest.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmonGwareth
Greater: Valkor, Reklar, SoG, and Shaloth.
Lesser: Daknor, Fafnir, Gruk and Surtheim.
Are there any others you would consider "epic" that might fit the Lesser category?
Some other possibilities: Avatar of Pain, Zhaguxal (Colossal Scorpion), Spirit of Dralnok, Elial, Rift Guardians.
I think Gruk does belong in the lesser category. Elial can go in as well, if he is unstunnable. Rift Guardians could likely be counted as lesser as well. This would be good to encourage help on rift runs, if the guardians dropped tokens that could be split up among the group.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
I agree that to qualify to be an EPIC the mob can not be soloed , but they must also be available to everyone to hunt .. so unless the rift gets open to everyone ( bipeds included) any mob in the rift SHOULD NOT be considered an Epic .
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
terrox
I agree that to qualify to be an EPIC the mob can not be soloed , but they must also be available to everyone to hunt .. so unless the rift gets open to everyone ( bipeds included) any mob in the rift SHOULD NOT be considered an Epic .
That is very good point. But Elial at least can be also found on PoS so i think you can include him as Lesser.
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Re: Talk to the Team: Epic Loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salwirk
That is very good point. But Elial at least can be also found on PoS so i think you can include him as Lesser.
My concern with that, though, is about biped attuning to Lantenal's portal to get to Peak of Storms. Doesn't Lantenal only give 4 tokens per RoP ascension, therefore limiting bipeds' access to PoS and Elial? Or is there another way I am missing?