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Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
I don't remember there being 'gender' in the character selection screen when I made my character, and when another dragon is doing something, it'll refer to that dragon as "it" in the chat box.
Here's my suggestion:
Could we please have Gender for dragon? I know that Ssilk reproduce asexually and I can understand them being genderless, but many times in NPCs and even people talking on the chat, I hear "hatchling" and 'fresh out of the egg' being mentioned.... so that leads me to believe there IS a gender for dragons, its just not implemented in game terms.
At least with a gender, when you hear someone's name, you could do a search on them before you accidently call them the wrong gender (someone mentioned this in the dragon channel once).
And mayhaps the models themselves could be worked on a little, mayhaps the females have just slightly more slender heads/faces, and mayhaps just slightly more agile looking bodies while the males would have a broader body size in general, and mayhaps just slightly more horns/fins on the head?
Just some ideas...
--Dhalin
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Pretty sure Dragons just kind of lay eggs every now and then, with no actual reproduction. That, or like the Sslik, asexual reproduction. It can be confusing, yes. On the same note, I sometimes choose female character models dispite IRL I'm a male. It's kind of an odd thing we've all had to live with for a very long time now.... Just guess, if your wrong, I doubt anybody would be offended.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Pink, Purple(most of the time)Light blue, Light Purple-usally a female.
Yes I have been yelled at about it before[:$]
Others-tend to be male.
Gamer-tends to be male, regardless of what they're playing... some people just need a women in their life, err I mean, gender doesn't really matter imo[H]
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Heeey watch it there, my GF plays and she is a gold dragon with yellow stripes.. *grins* She's a Pern lover.
--Dhalin
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalin
Heeey watch it there, my GF plays and she is a gold dragon with yellow stripes
GARH, dragons confuse me.
I would have gotten yelled at for that too.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
How about dragon are netrul becuase in the dragon age all dragon had a high magic aura within them.
So dragon eggs could been value for there power and may have increase the blight power greatly when theytoke there eggs.
As a diffense against this the dragon had to do something drastic and strip there young one of there power till they can defend themself.
So the RoP was created for them to regain the power thats was strip from them.
If a gender was chosen there power would probly flowe backwithin them.
So giving dragon a quest to regain there power and choicing there gender could be apply.
The SslikI think wasn't usualy the formthey are nowthey could had regenated from giant flightless lizard.
After the blight attack they could had been strip of there past and ability andto preserve there race.
So they could had preserve there egges to strech there race till they can break the blight cures.
This been kept a secreat even from the blight if they know the Sslik had seal some of there egges the blight would try to discover them.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
It has already been stated by the devs many times now that Dragons DO have gender. In fact, model files for both male and female models have already been made (you can find them in the resources directory tree). All that is left is putting in the capability to specify for existing ones, and updating character creation so people can pick. Plus, changing some emotes.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
There are no externally visible differences between male and female Dragons that non-dragons can see. There are male and female Dragons, but it is up to the Dragon to reveal to others which they are.
David Bowman
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Okay, so they already exist, it just needs to go Live?
Cool!
--Dhalin
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
lol no, what he's probably saying is that a dragon has to state in a chat or something if they are male or female.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
A few things have been suggested like emblems, etc. that would show a dragon's gender if they wanted too. Internally the game doesn't assign any gender to dragons, it's up to you to roleplay/chat whatever you want your dragons gender to be.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bowman
There are no externally visible differences between male and female Dragons that non-dragons can see. There are male and female Dragons, but it is up to the Dragon to reveal to others which they are.
David Bowman
Perhaps for a non initiate on reptile anatomy. But a dragon should be able to tell if another dragon is a male or female, since we lack the other signs that would tell us.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizharan
Pretty sure Dragons just kind of lay eggs every now and then, with no actual reproduction. That, or like the Sslik, asexual reproduction. It can be confusing, yes. On the same note, I sometimes choose female character models dispite IRL I'm a male. It's kind of an odd thing we've all had to live with for a very long time now.... Just guess, if your wrong, I doubt anybody would be offended.
I always depissed the idea of EVERY reptilian race being asexual. For god sake, there's only 1-2 species of reptiles that are asexual over more than a thousand.But cheesecake sci-fiction or fantasy *cough* Enemy Mine*cough* always want to give reptiles something extreme to have more people hate them.
Sadly, the Dev prefered to copy/paste a single model than tweak one to give more male/female characteristic, without going to the obvious...
Frill Vs fins, slender vs bigger tail, bigger backplate for male. or broader muzzle.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
They get all that and now gender too????????????????
rofl had to say it ;)
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
or come to forums and select (none-male-female)
and get in reviting conversations with the rest of us.[H]
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
I want the ability to wear a giant pink bow. ;)
/sarcasm off
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
This is something which came up a a long time before beta when it was revealed dragons wouldn't have gender. Presumably the lack of gender was so intertwined into their engine that it was more trouble then it was worth to change it. Ok, some unknown designer did an oops.Wouldn't be the first time.
The way I figure it, at this point it could take a lot of dev time to straighten everything out (change the database, change the models, change the client, change the creation screen, figure a way of modifying existing dragons on the fly, figure a way so that existing dragons can specify their gender, possibly change the network protocol, probably change something in the server, assign gender to all the NPC dragons, etc.). Do you really want them to spend that time on dragon gender when they could be spending it on something else? Would you rather they have externally visible gender or that they have lairs? Keep in mind that changing the appearance of the models in any way is probably not going to make some dragon players happy -- they like their dragon the way it is now.
So the official line has been what DB has said. It works andit avoids a huge amount of effort for very little gain.
I see nothing at all wrong with the gender of dragons not being identifiable.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Maybe make second emblem like slot that can only take 2 emblems, Male or Female. Once placed in the slot it is permanent and cannot be removed. If they dont put the emblem in the slot, no gender gets listed on /who, if they do, then their gender would be listed. Hand these out to all dragons, making them attuned, so they would have to delete the one they didnt use, but would not have to choose a gender right away if they didnt want to.
Oh and BTW, Tribunal, don't go by the dragon's color. My female dragon is dark blue and I know one male hatchling who is light purple.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Very true on color. Tamaracaran is red (and male). Frith-Rae is red (and female).
Someone mentioned a female gold. Denrath is gold and male.
And I really should mention Tagath (male, blue) and saphire (female, blue).
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
I am a red dragon......and female.:P Even in real life.:)
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
My dragon is black and blue,
not because of what people look like after you beat the crap out of them... just because COME ON! how is that not the most hard-core color scheme known to man!??![H]
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Of course dragons have gender![;)][;)][;)]
Bipeds just have trouble telling our genders apart. The gnome scientist who was dispatched to investigate a way to tell was eaten.[:P][:P]
*BURP*
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goriax
This is something which came up a a long time before beta when it was revealed dragons wouldn't have gender. Presumably the lack of gender was so intertwined into their engine that it was more trouble then it was worth to change it. Ok, some unknown designer did an oops.Wouldn't be the first time.
The way I figure it, at this point it could take a lot of dev time to straighten everything out (change the database, change the models, change the client, change the creation screen, figure a way of modifying existing dragons on the fly, figure a way so that existing dragons can specify their gender, possibly change the network protocol, probably change something in the server, assign gender to all the NPC dragons, etc.). Do you really want them to spend that time on dragon gender when they could be spending it on something else? Would you rather they have externally visible gender or that they have lairs? Keep in mind that changing the appearance of the models in any way is probably not going to make some dragon players happy -- they like their dragon the way it is now.
So the official line has been what DB has said. It works andit avoids a huge amount of effort for very little gain.
I see nothing at all wrong with the gender of dragons not being identifiable.
I don't think why it would be that much trouble. Sure, it wouldn't probably be a day of work. But I don't believe that would require that much work too. For every race, except for a model change, there's isn't any difference between male and female. They got the same abilitie, skills and mostly the same animation as far as I noticed.
For a male and female dragons, it would only mean duplicating the database data for each gender and copy the model over, then tweaking the model and small things for it.
I believe they would even be able to do it fast, if they don't put any physical difference between male and female.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imayo
Maybe make second emblem like slot that can only take 2 emblems, Male or Female. Once placed in the slot it is permanent and cannot be removed. If they dont put the emblem in the slot, no gender gets listed on /who, if they do, then their gender would be listed. Hand these out to all dragons, making them attuned, so they would have to delete the one they didnt use, but would not have to choose a gender right away if they didnt want to.
Oh and BTW, Tribunal, don't go by the dragon's color. My female dragon is dark blue and I know one male hatchling who is light purple.
I've been suggesting something similar, except that when dragons finish their ARoP they may choose either an ", the Matriarch" or ", the Patriarch" emblem. Free to be removed, like all emblems.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
My dragon is white and I am a male.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Well I'm mostly accurate of which is male and female mainly by color.
Or maybe I have an adept skill at picking which they are. I don't need anyone yelling at me here, I've only had 1 I can remember in game tell me about it out of the possible 4.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goriax
This is something which came up a a long time before beta when it was revealed dragons wouldn't have gender. Presumably the lack of gender was so intertwined into their engine that it was more trouble then it was worth to change it. Ok, some unknown designer did an oops.Wouldn't be the first time.
It is even simpler than that. Pressed for time, they opted to not create two sets of art assets (models, skins, etc), and to just make them "neuter" in the engine, with the explanation that David gave above, so they could just use the one set of assets.
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The way I figure it, at this point it could take a lot of dev time to straighten everything out (change the database, change the models, change the client, change the creation screen, figure a way of modifying existing dragons on the fly, figure a way so that existing dragons can specify their gender, possibly change the network protocol, probably change something in the server, assign gender to all the NPC dragons, etc.).
I don't think so. Some of the model work has already been done. Check your /Resources/characters/characters/dragonu_u/mesh folder. You will find three separate sets of body models there: dragona_u_m0_body01m,dragona_u_m0_body01f, and dragona_u_m0_body01n. The heads may need to also be made, I don't know. The database gender field can store 3 values: male, female, and neuter. Thus, no database work would have to be done. Specifying gender is as easy as adding one command with a single argument and two constraints: /setgender male|female. If the gender is neuter and the race is dragon(in the various forms), then change the gender to the one specified, otherwise, reject the command. Then all they have left to do is change the emotes, if they need changing at all. Chances are, they already support alternate genders (i.e., "its" is not hard-coded in the text strings), so they may not have anything to change in them at all. No, the network protocol doesn't have to change, as the same data field holds gender, no matter if it is male/female or neuter. The only thing that would have to be changed in the server is the command I just gave. Otherwise, the server doesn't care what gender the character is. NPC Dragons don't need gender, as they don't emote, which is the only way you can tell anyway. Plus, there is nothing that says they have to be male/female. There's nothing that says PC Dragons have to be, either. That's the whole point of the /setgender command. It's an option.
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Do you really want them to spend that time on dragon gender when they could be spending it on something else? Would you rather they have externally visible gender or that they have lairs? Keep in mind that changing the appearance of the models in any way is probably not going to make some dragon players happy -- they like their dragon the way it is now.
Mute point. They already have spent time on it, and they have already committed to spending time on it at some point. Personally, I don't care to have externally identifiable genders. The main complaint that people have had (that I understand and agree with) is they don't want their emotes saying "its". As far as I am concerned, they can copy all the art assets into whatever file names need to be present for male/female genders for the client, change the emotes (if they need to be changed at all) on the server, give us the command to choose once and for all, and they are done. No, I don't want them working on that instead of Lairs or other, more pressing issues, but if Smeglor can spend a few lunches implementing PvP Arenas, surely he can spend a lunch or two implementing basic Dragon gender.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
It's probably something for the pony list.
But the technology to change the appearance is in place it would seem, after playing with the costumes on blight.
If it could be easily coded, would be a nice option. I wouldn't expect lots of time dumped into it.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
I don't want this to be put ahead of schools. I figure we'll be waiting too long as-is.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Schools for Dragons are a pipe dream at this point. Dragon gender is quite a bit more concrete as a conception that could be implemented.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
I think AROP and lairs are going to be it for dragon related stuff for some time to come if ever. I think we'll be lucky if they do anything at all on anything dragon related beyond maintenance for at least a year. If they do deign to spend some time on dragons, I want that time to be on direct gameplay stuff which will enhance the longetivity of being able to play a dragon in HZ. I.e., the ability for ahigh level dragon player to be able to log on and develop himself in some way. Something which will add many hours of gameplay as opposed to something where you say "cool, I have gender" and then move on exactly as before.
There' s too little effort going into dragons for it to be diluted.
Sure if they can do it in a few days, (heh, if they'll do it at ALL regardless of how long it takes) it would be welcome. I'd love to no longer be neuter. But I don't want them spending 5 minutes on it if it will delay schools or any other solid gameplay advancement for dragons.
It's hard to say how tough the modifications will be without seeing their code, but I find it a bit hard to swallow that it'll be that easy. There's too many things which have to be touched and all it takes is one thing being a bear to bog downthe whole effort.In any event, all that matters is if THEY consider it too much work, which they apparently do since they've never spent any time on this even though it's been an issue since long before even beta.
I agree with you in principle that it would be nice for them to make the change and give dragons gender in-game. I just don't want that to be the one dragon related thing they do for the next year.
With 20/20 hindsight I now kind of wish they'd settled for a very modest AROP instead of the beautiful extravaganza they didsince whether modest or elaborate it's something that's completed in a few hours of gameplay. Instead I think it would have been better to have a more modest AROP with just a few quests and no new areas and used the freed up dev timeto give us schools at the same time. I can't really get too upset about that since I didn't say anything at the time, but I kind of wish things had gone that way with my 20/20 hindsight. As-is I'm beginning to have serious doubts I'll be able to maintain interest until schools come out. MAYBE lairs will do it. Maybe.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goriax
Sure if they can do it in a few days, (heh, if they'll do it at ALL regardless of how long it takes) it would be welcome. I'd love to no longer be neuter. But I don't want them spending 5 minutes on it if it will delay schools or any other solid gameplay advancement for dragons.
There have been quite a few things they have been resistant to doing mainly because they didn't know how to approach them, but when they spent a little bit of time looking, they've figured out an easy and quick way to accomplish it that works. The most recent example is Libraries. Thus, just because they may be antipathic towards the idea doesn't mean that they know for a fact that it would be hard to do. Remember that most of the development work was done by people who aren't there anymore, and those who are there now are having to go back and learn what was done and why.
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It's hard to say how tough the modifications will be without seeing their code, but I find it a bit hard to swallow that it'll be that easy. There's too many things which have to be touched and all it takes is one thing being a bear to bog downthe whole effort.In any event, all that matters is if THEY consider it too much work, which they apparently do since they've never spent any time on this even though it's been an issue since long before even beta.
Well, you and I don't tend to see eye-to-eye on how things should/could be done in development anyway, so I don't think either of our points of view are any more valid than the other on the surface. The one fact is that they HAVE spent some time on it, and HAVE said that they were looking at it. Until either they do it, or they talk to us about doing it, no one will know anything for certain.
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I agree with you in principle that it would be nice for them to make the change and give dragons gender in-game. I just don't want that to be the one dragon related thing they do for the next year.
Projecting difficulty in doing a task, if it is really that hard to do, then I wouldn't expect anything as complex as schools to ever see the light of day.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
just give the male dragons a bigger head and females a bigger butt.
it's all about resizing.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goriax
I don't want this to be put ahead of schools. I figure we'll be waiting too long as-is.
I doubt they'll even do anything about this anyways, games gotten along just fine without genders for dragons.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
The game has gotten along "just fine" (whatever that is) with a lot of things.
Oh, just in case you missed it, they HAVE BEEN and ARE "doing something about it".
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
// There is a way to deal with it right here and now;
FindGeometry("dragon", polygons("SpinalCrest"));
if (player.Gender == "female")
setGeometry = "hidden";
end if;
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcellus
The game has gotten along "just fine" (whatever that is) with a lot of things.
Oh, just in case you missed it, they HAVE BEEN and ARE "doing something about it".
hmmmm, that was... coo.
Apparently you're getting very upset by the fact you can't tell a lizard from a lizard, if its male or female, unless you go througha degree ofexamination (Lets not get into that).
No offence, but this is very trivial. This isn't even all that important. What possible bonus do you get from this? A guy who wants to be funny and make a female dragon, when he could just walk around and tell everyone that anyways?
If this is ever a big notice I'm going to laugh, "Dragons now have genders!"..."ok" They still look the same. You can still guess what they are by the way they talk.
Because seriously..... this is rediculous, I'm at a lost for words how useless this little feature would be.
*scratches the back of his neck*
I can't think of a reason why it's important, but I guess I wont have to... I'll wait for you all to tell me.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Well, when I wrote the suggestion itself.. I was referring more to Player Searches and Emotes... I mean.. being called an "it".... gets 'bleh' after awhile.... as far as visuals... those were just an add-on suggestion....
The main core behind my suggestion was to improve Player Searches (have us listed as Male/Female instead of Neuter) and have him/her he/she in the emotes/battle text.
That way, when you talk to someone, you have an idea if they are male or female (I've seen a few names I honestly thought were female, then after a few min, I realize 'hey, this is a male...') ... I think Nalii was one of them... that... to me sounds female. But yet, I think that they are a male instead....
--Dhalin
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribunal
Apparently you're getting very upset by the fact you can't tell a lizard from a lizard, if its male or female, unless you go througha degree ofexamination (Lets not get into that).
No, the only thing I get upset about are people posting incorrect info, downplay suggestions that don't affect them, or otherwise just be ignorant twits towards other people.
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No offence, but this is very trivial.
..to you.
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This isn't even all that important.
..to you.
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What possible bonus do you get from this? A guy who wants to be funny and make a female dragon, when he could just walk around and tell everyone that anyways?
Well, when people like to Roleplay (a foreign concept to some), they sometimes don't like to be categorized as something they are not. They also don't like to be ridiculed repeatedly (as some have in the past) for their RP choices.
If you dig through the Dragon forum, you'll find multiple instances of people who don't like the fact that the emotes paint them as neuter when they RP otherwise.
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Because seriously..... this is rediculous, I'm at a lost for words how useless this little feature would be.
So? There are LOTS of "useless" features being put into the game all the time. Emblems? Weapon dyes? TOOL dyes? Hello??? How useful are any of these? Hmmm?
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I can't think of a reason why it's important, but I guess I wont have to... I'll wait for you all to tell me.
That's why the forums are here. To make sure the devs see more than just one side of a discussion. You don't agree. Fine. You don't HAVE to agree. Everything is cool. [Y]
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
tell us how you really feel, dude...
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
*Is secure in his characters lack of gender not to give a *********
This argument is silly.[:S]
Taking the time to reorganize the internal definition, animation, and model structure of the game just so a made-up race can have a internally-defined gender. Seriously, this is the most trivial thing I've seen people complain about. Even with gendered races there's no way to tell the gender of a random player unless you seem them in person. Most introductions in-game take place through comm channels or /tells anyway.
I'm for some sort of emblem or name tag that states a dragon's gender, but anything is just a blatent misuse of development time better spent on something less asinine. "dragon_u" is so embedded in the game's code and definition system that splitting everything to "dragon_m" and "dragon_f" would take weeks of effort with a net result of pleasing the small % of the playerbase that doesn't feel like saying "Hey, I'm a dude-dragon, raar." etc.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
I most wholeheartedly and vehently disagree.
It is no less assinine than adding a useless PvP arena to a PvE game, useless dyes and dye kits, different appearances to weapons, etc.
It's not important to you. Fine. It IS important to others.
There's no evidence that it would require any significant time investment to incorporate into the game, unlike the items mentioned above. There's already evidence that they HAVE invested some time to accomplish it.
Last I checked, this IS the SUGGESTIONS forum, so unless you want people to come in every time you have a SUGGESTION and downplay it with BULLshit, I'd suggest taking your dissent against it to another forum, k?
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Phar, are you saying it is important? I agree, it would be nice. And I support the fact that there are those which would like to see something done about it.
But I expect those same people to agree that the PvP arena ia a good idea in that post, otherwise they can keep there two cents out of that post.
Positiveness goes across the board.
Jayne
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
The PvP, was a good thing.
Talk with a dev about it, it was meant to get accurate information on how to make creatures combat in raids, and improve A.I.
Useful.
I'm not against adding emblems, so be it.
I'm just stating how useless it would be. It would make you happy, then it served its purpose within 2 seconds, would that be worth it?
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
I said it was important to some people, yes. As for me, it would be nice to see my emotes stop saying "itself" "themself(ick)". I'd like it as much, if not more than a weapon dye kit form.
I don't see any PvP arena suggestion threads where anyone has come in and downplayed it. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened (even by me in the past), but I haven't seen one in a while. Most of those threads are elsewhere, and in a discussion, it is valid to downplay it as part of an opinion expressed in said discussion.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribunal
The PvP, was a good thing.
Talk with a dev about it, it was meant to get accurate information on how to make creatures combat in raids, and improve A.I.
Useful.
We had the discussion in the Focus Group about it. It is of little value for the purposes of mob balance and proper mob effects because no one can play a mob in the arena. How can you tell if Seeping Blight X works as intended if no one in the Arena has that ability? Mob AI cannot be tested OR evaluated in a PvP Arena because, um, you aren't fighting mobs. The only things that can be quantified from the PvP arena are player character skills and abilities VERSUS OTHER PLAYER CHARACTERS. Mobs have completely different stats, skills, and abilities, and what works well against a PC may not work at all, or may work too well against any particular mob.
So, no, outside of player affirmation of PC abilities, and some "fun", it is useless.
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I'm just stating how useless it would be. It would make you happy, then it served its purpose within 2 seconds, would that be worth it?
If the litmus is making the game more enjoyable for some players, the requisite effort to implement doesn't far outstrip the reward, and doesn't impede the flow of more important items on the agenda, then, yes, I would say it is worth it.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
My Dragon is white and light blue (like snow and ice) and Female[H]
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
PvP arena is no less as important to some then dye kits or gender.
And I didn't think you were suppoed to identify yourself as being in the focus group?
Jayne
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Like everything else, it is important to some and trivial to others. I think Hal's point about the issues around the dragon model is probably the clincher on the technical side of the issue. Giving dragons gender would require putting two new races into the game and then providing a mechanism for dragons to choose which race they want to change too.
I'm guessing that's a fair amount of work.
I'm in favor of dragons getting gender.However, there is currently a work-around in the form of dragons self-identifying. Not having gender was a bad decision in the first place, but I don't think fixing it rises to the level of an immediate need based solely on the amount of work adding two races to everything would be.
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Re: Suggestion: Dragon Gender.
Yea its something that is now and has been identified, but I am sure will be placed in that filing cabinet in the back corner of the office. There is just so much more to do right now.
But yes I agree it should get done.
Jayne