What is it?
The carrot and the stick?
I do not understand the policy behind some changes.
A patch in advance/ realtime with fixes of bugged quests,spells, techs/ items
would have been appreciated more than a nerf of cot / cleanse.
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What is it?
The carrot and the stick?
I do not understand the policy behind some changes.
A patch in advance/ realtime with fixes of bugged quests,spells, techs/ items
would have been appreciated more than a nerf of cot / cleanse.
"Dragon Hoard items now have coin values."
Ouch. This is going to adversely affect the ability of hatchlings to acquire the hoard needed for RoP, I fear...
a totally rediculous change, this is going to grief hatchlings....Quote:
"Dragon Hoard items now have coin values."
whats the point of making such a change?
What for Istaria's sake are you two talking about? Hoard item drops are high enough for a hatchling who actually fights mobs instead of focussing way to much on trophies to reach the requirement. My hatchling Gallinthus came from Skalkaar with lvl 8 and 45k hoard only from killing the constantly agro after re-spawning lvl 4 skalkaar tiny grass beetles. Not to mention that bipeds have absolutely no use for it except for charity.
I recently tried to offer many hoard items for free with my low level biped to a passing hatchling and it was refused so not all hatchlings are even interested.
Another remark about the Delta 177.
I never knew Snarl or Menacing Presence did crush damage, let alone require a damage type change. I like it nonetheless. :)
1) Some hatchlings do very little hunting, preferring to focus on crafting. Since I believe hoard levels affect skills, they need hoard readily available from other sources.
2) Giving hoard a coin value means bipeds can pawn hoard items for coin instead of consigning them or just giving them away. They suddenly do have a use for it besides charity.
1. Everything that a hatchling crafts can be hoarded, while this is extremely rediculously low it is possible. Anyway the discussion was not about focussing on crafting, but reaching the RoP requirement of min. lvl 30 adventure.
Which will require fighting various hoard dropping mobs unless a player wants to let himself get powerleveled by trophies provided by another player. In case of the last choice the provider can also provide 250k hoard.
2. While I am a dragon and love my hoard I can also understand things from a biped point of view that from a non role play point of view you dont always want to carry a large amount of junk in the hopes that a hatchling might actually be interested.
It is a matter of choice... A biped should always have a choice to give the hoard away, sell it on consigner OR sell it at the pawnbroker like every other item we dont want to sell on consigner. A lot of times I hear saying that bipeds delete hoarditems... Which is also their choice since they looted it. Atleast selling it to a pawnbroker would make it more usefell to bipeds.
Greetings
So, why not make the dragons able to craft crystals?
That may be enhance the economy and give a possible equation to being dependend on the bipeds.
Is it a difference that the hoarditems now have a coin value on them?
Wasnt it possible to pawn them without a coin value?
I dont like them to be pawned, because this negates their real value and sole reason.
At the current state, what craft (crafted by dragon) items are of importance for a biped. The other way round there are some.
Thats why I revive that old suggestion of dragon crystalworking, so the dragons could even this a bit.
And about the changes in the OP, I would appreciate a detailed explanation as I dont yet understand the changes.
Xz
Let's not count chickens.... some things look like nerfs on paper, but in game, it may have a different effect.
Remember when Gold Rage was changed and the howls of "nerf!" only to realize that it made the ability recycle faster?
As far as the 'it'll be difficult to get to 250k' goes, it has been mentioned there are other ways to get hoard besides charity. Hopefully there will be some bipeds that will still stock the cosigner.
While such things as the ones named before in this thread I see still as minor change, IF I compare them to some others...
How about that they lower the dragons evasion from - 8- a level to - 6 - a level??
That is -200 evasion for a L 100 dragon!
Im pretty sure the dodge ability cant compensate that especially if its like the ones the bipeds have!
The hoardable change is probably to lower DB utilization. On Chaos, if you look on the NT conny, there are literally hundreds of 'antique daggers' and 'ornamental spears' - each taking up precious DB resources until they time out and end up back in someones vault, where they take up precious DB resources. :)
As for the functionality of this change, I seriously doubt your average hatchling will see much difference. The three Dragons I've run through 30+ in the last couple months were all well into the 250k hoard range as a byproduct of simply getting to 30.
If the hoardables drop rate is lowered in accordance with hoardables now having coin value, it will merely mean we might have to go back to the old ways; pre-RoP crafting parties for a day or spend a day as a guild hunting Aegis and/or beetles with the 30+ hatchling(s) - it's not a big deal really and gives us things to do as a group. :D
I don't see the point of making CoT less friendly to use. I don't see why that or making Cleanse less effective will enhance the game in any way. Making things less don't make this game better.
As you're an ancient and have much more experience than I, can a Dragon actually dodge? I ask because I've never seen it. :)
I just assume I'm going to get hit - I'm the size of a house. I'd guess that in melee it borders on impossible to miss me actually.
You mean all of those tons and tons of fixes that are in there? Go look, there are lots of em.
Cleanse wasn't altered at all. Stun was altered so that it can't be cleansed. Mezzes and Roots, however, can still be cleansed.
CoT was linked because it was supposed to have been linked, like other spells, in the first place. And because it encourages players to do something other than spam CoT on everyone.
Dragon hoard items were given coin value because quite honestly when new players enter the game and loot hoard items but can't do anything with them they are confused or see it as broken. And bugs early in the game can contribute to players leaving. Now, they can sell them to the pawnbroker.
Combined with the change of new schools getting better training gear these changes should help out the newbie game and make them more survivable (which was one of the complaints we had seen). More players is good, right?
Hmm, my thoughts:
Dragon Hoardables: I'm sure that very few people worry about whether or not you donate t1-t3 hoardables really. They give such low hoard, that any T5 biped wanting to give to Charity, could go out and kill some T5 monsters and get thousands of hoard value in a few minutes.
I'm sure that the coin value on T4-T5 hoard items will be too low to consider pawning them unless the market is really slow. Why PB a T5 hoardable for, say, 1s-2s when you could get 10+ out of it at the consigner? I think people will still consign T4-T5.
Otherwise, if the vendor price is too high, then lots of people will get rich quick. However, newbie bipeds now have a way of making money early-level, especially with all of the formulas costing coin. Ridiculous amounts of coin.
Where does a lowbie biped get coin? They have to go out and kill junk. A lot of junk, to get that kind of coin. It takes what, at least 50 silver to obtain a full set of Beginner Outfitter recipes alone? Where the heck is a <Lv40 biped supposed to get 50 silver? My biped at Lv36 can adventure for 2-3 hours and maybe get 10-15 silver, tops.
Allowing them to vendor hoard items is actually a good idea. Just make sure that the coin value on T4-T5 is lower than the usual consign rates on such items and we'll be fine.
I can't really comment on CoT/Cleanse, as I don't have a character high enough to have seen such things, but the changes to Snarl/Menacing Presence/Mighty Roar/etc sound cool, once they work out the bugs. Gives me more abilities to use in combat.
The only thing I will comment, is where it says that Menacing Presence uses the "Wing Buffet" animation... is that a good thing? The #1 complaint behind Galewind (I assume uses the same animation) is that the animation takes too long, taking at least the time of 2 auto-attacks, where your dragon stands there and can't do anything else.
CoT got various tiers by design unless the game programed itself. One of the purpose was so we can buff others - I don't see what's wrong that. Did folks complain about this or something? Also having coT removed by certain damage threshold means we have to rebuff which I'm not sure how it enhances gameplay (like having to equipt the boarmask to use it, then re-equipt in mid-fight - annoying).
I like buffing noobs with coT, and they appreciate it very much.
And somehow here's a feeling stun mobs a coming on the cheap..
Re: cleanse and stuns.
IMO stuns are the only "mez" type that cleanse benefits the most. Mezzes and roots break upon damage. Stun doesn't.
While I don't understand the reason why stun should not be cleanse-able (I get those freezing effect things all mixed up), it just sounds like stun has been made a lot more powerful. Flip it to where we use it on Withered Aegis - they can't remove it from one another now either, right? So which classes benefit - wizard has a stunner ability, does this mean when they use it the opponents stay stunned? What other classes/abilities/spells can stun and thus may be more useful now?
I want to be very clear on cloak of thorns - I don't mind a linked timer, but I do expect to be able to cast it on anyone I target if the timer for it has recovered. I have long been irked by my overfull spellbook, but it is worth it to me to keep the lower tier buffs scribed and thus available for "younger" characters. Please do not take away my ability to help those less capable than me with it if I choose to.
I agree with Raesh and Dako:
I`m a dragon, I`m a tank- Am I able to dodge? Do I want to dodge?
*imagines herself to dance around blights like Muhammad Ali at his best^^*
From what I've seen over the years, the WA don't use cleanse anyway. They simply ignore the Stun in the first place. I've been using Eminence and Tail Whip for years now, and I don't think I've EVER seen a mob skip a beat when the Stun goes off. They just keep right on attacking and using Abilities like nothing happened. Now I know they are not overly LONG stuns, but still... when the "Enemy is Stunned" spam goes off, then the VERY next line is "You are Killed by Multi-attack of DOOM for 10,000,000 damage" that's a problem. Has happened many a time to me.
I've just got back game and happy to some upgrade happen but fix problem isn't that what all we see and now add coins values hmm what is point of that so over type can sell them or something i thought they were ment for dragons or am i miss the point :rolleyes::eek:
The patch previous to this one (I think it was 176 at least) added HV to many items that never had HV in the past (i.e., spells and comps). Given that there are even MORE items in game that are hoardable, adding a coin value to hoard does not seem unreasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cromos_Swordbreaker
There is NO linked timer as you will ONLY have a single cloak of thorns; the tier being what your current class/ability is. If you are level 80 Druid, you will see only Cloak of Thorns 5 in your ability book.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdz
I would assume that a lower level character could only receive cloak from a druid/ranger in the same adventure tier, ie., a level 10 adventurer could only get cloaked by a Druid/ranger under level 20.
It wouldn't affect your spellbook at all, as cloak is an ability, not a spell; however it would free up some hotkeys if you had all 5 tiers assigned to different hotkeys.
Quote:
-Cloak of Thorns abilities now share a keyword.
-Cloak of Thorns is now ablative and can be removed after a damage threshold has been reached.
if you (VI) do this fix to live. u will loose a good player on istaria. i dont understand why u mess up a great ability. i like to help some little players to start here in istaria with a small push from CoT.
now im a RANGER but after this, only a sslik with a bow.
(sorry my English disallowed me to write more about this).
its just make me angry and sadly. and: don't change a running system. in this case, dont change abys/spells because THIS IS ISTARIA
My point was not that cot affected the spellbook (obviously it does not) but that I'm so wanting to be able to buff lower tiers that I cause myself problems in order to do so. I'm OK with the damage nerf; I'm not OK with not being able to cast it as a buff on any except my own tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creme
If they wanted to make it one ability, why not make it castable on everyone with the max damage = 200 x the recipient's current level? That would avoid overpowering the lower tiers of recipients and still make it a reasonable buff to share. (Well, 200 or whatever factor would make the cap at 100 what they intended).
So lets see if i've got this right.
I play a biped and you want me to save all these hoard items and give them to a hatchling to help him with his RoP, because up till now hoard items are useless to me. I cant sell them on consigner, they take up too much vault space, so i have to give them away.
Im all for charity, but my memory fails me i can't seem to remember a dragon walking up to me and giving me 10 silver to help me or is it that only biped have to be charitable.
Your complaining because biped wont be as charitable but this will only bring us in line with dragons.
Also saying its hard to get 250k by the time you get to level 30 is hard !!
My friend started a dragon just so i had someone to give all this hoard too. While i was getting from level 26-30 i gave him 355k worth of hoard, now if a dragon cant amass 250k from level 1 - 30 they are doing something wrong.
just a quick note in reply to creme .. actually spells DID have hoard value long ago. all crafted items did. agreed that many didn't make sense (like cloth armor and such).
sorry this really has nothing to do with the topic.. i just wanted to get the history straight.
giving hoard to hatchies is a nice, heart warming tradition of our community.
Since the beginnings.
Noone was ever forced to do so.
But you are right- hatchies do not NEED that anymore.
Pawn it, sell it, delete it..
and make this world a better place.
And yes I -like many others- give coin to new players- even to bipeds.
My mistake, I should have said formulas instead of spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by dorrin
Sorry, I misunderstood. Yes, I too did that until the burden of deleting spells became too great and I finally got rid of most of my low level buffing spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by AWDZ
and I agree with Awdz and Vasilios:
CoT is an important part of our gameworld.
A friendly gesture towards other/younger players "hiya mate, happy hunting"
a bit like giving hoard to hatchies- not needed but most appeciated.
non verbal friendly communication. Not necessary in a modern mmorpg?
And why nerf it? It was really something unique. It was really something that worked good- for the good of all involved.
Sry. but the arguments did not convince me.
I Dont like the nerf on the following
cot ( Not that i use it as a dragon ) but it still effects game play when in fierce combat .
Dragons getting there evasion slashed to bits and the token gesture of an evasion style thats a passive ability
The hoard thing is rather odd. I would like to see what rick or amons reason behind this is ... My belief is there going to attempt to create a economy in this game one way or another :eek:, However i Personally think this is a bad move at the present time,For the following reason . Until all the revamps are done and the islands get fixed for the major comps. The economy can not thrive for the higher level players due to an imbalance in components a Key factor in Istarin traid .
Another interesting move
Selling Tier 6 Technique Components to Pawnbrokers will go down in value after a number are sold.
Assuming there trying to stimulate an economy for the high players. Players should be able to Craft t6 armor and be able to use it ! That will make the value in the community worth the effort in obtaining them . and a appropriate price will follow . whats interesting about this is there trying to get us to pawn stuff when the values of our goodies aka Forms hoard and useless t 6 comps are worthless. clearly not what is worth the time and effort it takes to get them.
Perhaps i am over thinking this but if that is there goal for us to start pawning items that means that there is not enough currency in the game in other words a $ is not driving another $ (Or in this case silver:p )
We'll change Cloak of Thorns back so that you can again use it on any level player. The other changes to it will remain, however.
Geez, dragon evasion going from 8 per lvl to 6 per lvl, a drop of 200 points.
I look at the dragon abilities thread and I see it quoted that it wasn't intended for making nerfs. Yet here we have a nerf to dragons in the patch notes.
I would rather keep the 200 points and not have a dodge ability.
Thy Amon ;):)
And yes pls overthink the evasion thing again.
I personally dislike all items having a hoard value.
I agree if a dragon can hoard almost *anything* now, hoard should be PB able.
If anything hoard should be worth less now and be cheaper for all the dragons to buy.
Example: Biped charges too much, dragon makes an offer (more reasonably), it's either that or sell it to the PB for even less.
After taking a closer look at the list something actually caught my eye and nearly made me weep. :(
Ruxus are no longer aggressive and have a slower wander frequency.
Not sure what the actual reasons are for this change (also don’t agree with it), but on Chaos I leveled on them from lvl 24 to 30 in varied size of small/regulars and even 2 or 3 large ruxus and yes they are aggressive, but I loved it since it kept me on my toes.
They truly force you to fight to the absolute best of your abilities, if you slack but a moment chances are that you do not survive your mistake… True if you are foolish enough to walk into a huge spawn they are very dangerous… So don't!
Also from my personal experience the aggressive nature of the Ruxus are a perfect way of learning how to play your character in various difficult situations (at least it was for me playing my hatchling).
Please don’t put the Ruxus on tranquilizers just because players are not careful !!! :(
I'm not sure which dragons everyone here have been playing. I don't dodge on mine. If I do it's a freak of nature. Even monks with super evasion get hit at high T5 and T6 so why a dragon is worried about it in the least is beyond me.
The change to evasion and adding dodge won't change my game much at all.
I take as little damage as possible from all attacks and reply in kind by hitting like an ICBM. repeat ad infinitum.
If devs would give me a like amount of armor per level as evasion lost I'd never bat an eye. (6 more armor a level and 0 evasion a level) suits me fine.
Hence why the ceremonial scale -% evasion makes me laugh. +300 armor for a dragon way better.
Well unless you're sporting a triple teched venegance scale etc. You get the idea yes?
I'm don't know if it's about the economy. Pretty sad if it is...
To stimulate this game in its current state and making it happening again will require some new art assets, in corellation with a new enemy that requires totally new & different armor/weapon types to overcome - this will jolt the crafters into gathering resources and adventurers into getting comps/recipes to make the stuff.
Anyone here played AC1 in the early days will remember how lame the economy was until the shadow war came along, adding motes for the Atlans to the loot table, as well as shards for the armor - Remember the tools needed to switch the crystals? and the string for bows? The reality is not that many things were added - but those changes made the players feel the dire need to have such to participate because the mobs were litterally at their doorstep. The economy went through the roof and stayed that way for 3 years, over the same event.
I think VI's idea is to make things less so other areas of gameplay will become more. Kinda like every morning you been having a bacon, egg and cheese on a bagel, but now all you get is the bagel...So, to have the bacon, egg and cheese is actually more.
And more is better, right?
Hoard items having coin value: Hmm... I'm alright with this change. I think it will have more of a positive impact then negative. It'll definitely help bipeds earn some coin. Whenever I look on the NT connie I always see TONS of hoard items, so hatchlings won't suddenly keel over from loss of hoard income ;-) Hoard is pretty easy for hatchlings to obtain, just hunt down some WA, and if you don't get a lot of hoard dropping from them you can always use the coin made off of them to buy hoard on the connie. And there is the change of some more craftable items becoming hoardable, so it makes it even easier. (Even though they give low hoard value, every little bit counts!)
Dragon evasion decrease: BOOOO!! I agree with Chasing on this one.
Snarl, ect..: Changing to mind damage from crush? Since when have those abilities done crush damage?? Anyways, I'm alright with them doing mind damage. :-)
I am curious what the reasoning behind the changes were. If it is to discourage PLing low level characters, then the change to only allow the caster's tier be active works; however, by re-enabling all levels of cloak to be cast, I can see this as encouraging behavior that enables the cloaker to be in a minimal aggro zone, with a recycling hotkey every 5 seconds, casting cloak on any level recipient.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmonGwareth
If the change is to discourage the use of cloak aside from a minimal damage threshhold, well then again, see above regarding the minimal aggro zone.
At least by limiting cloak to a single tier (that of the caster) and only being castable upon the same tier, this effectively promotes grouping by players of a similar level (and/or rating if desired) and negates the PLing aspects of cloaking low level characters.
I'm not sure I understand the happiness behind being able to buff someone with an almost useless version of cloak as once the damage threshhold is attained, the cloak evaporates (unless of course, there is some means to continually recast it on said player w/out undue hardship). I assume the damage threshhold is less for each lower tier.
Also, is the damage total strictly melee? It seems unfair for a cloak to evaporate from spell or ranged damage, when the cloak is not dealing any damage to ranged attackers.
On the cloak of thorns: Nice to be able to cast on lower players. Power leveling? No. they still have to go fight for themselves. If they are being power leveled they likely are not getting hit anyway, and you never put COT on the lower toons in a group when trying to power level them. All that does is make them take more aggro. The change back to keep all the tiers allows someone to give a beneficial buff to a lower player and send them on their way. That's not power leveling in the least.
being removed after so much damage done: This is probably how it should have been all along. Might require some toying around with the amount of damage tho. It's currently 2k dmg for the t5 COT on blight I believe. It seems a bit low. Perhaps increase it but also put a longer cooldown on it? Hmm that would practically eliminate the ability to buff groupmembers.. While I see the sense in this change, all it really does is make the ability need to be recast alot more often. Especailly when grouping. As long as these changes will apply to Oastics and treants as well, I suppose its fair. Players will just have to be on their toes and keep the cot buffs coming, mobs will be less smart. This change does put it a bit closer to say Glaring Quills, but cot would still be far superior due to unlimited casting capability, vs GQ's limit based on ice elements... Ultimately I think testing the changes on the live shards, and guaging impact will be needed, and as I mentioned above, possible tweaking to the amount of dmg dealt before removed.
Hoard coin value: I think this is fine as long as the pawn value in coppers is less than 25% the hoard value (maybe should be even less?). Which is the typical selling price on chaos, that sells (20% hv to 33% or so sells). You dont want to discourage selling to others, but I can see the point about new players possibly percieving the game as broke when they don't know what to do with hoard at low levels. Pawning it for a little something is fine for them, and the coin value doesn't need to be huge to accomplish this.
Stuns: I think it makes sense they cannot be cleansed. This will work in mobs favor since they never bothered to cleanse it before anyway, but players did.
Dragon evasion changes: All I see this to be is a nerf, because contrary to popular belief, my testing has show that dumping all tp's into evasion produces a noticable difference. Lowering it by 200 means a dragon will almost never evade, even WITH evasion skill maked with tp's. Now, if the dodge is actually going to have a noticeable, positive effect, then it remains to be seen how this change will affect gameplay, and it could work out in Dragon's favor. Amon, care to elaborate on the reason for this change? Make dragons evade less? Or try to improve their dodging since it might work better than evasion?
I'll try to do some testing with this on Blight tonight.
Oh and plz FIX for real, the primal rage and fangs of fury and the bards tail.
Update: Logged into blight and the dodge/evasion changes aren't in place there yet, so can't test it for now.
Not all power levelled characters are level 10 rating 10. Any level 1/rating 50 character could have enough health to handle aggro with cloak, and there's players that can and have PLed others by continuously spamming cloak so that the damage limit is meaningless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaran
A T1 cloak, at a guess would have a damage limit of say...150. That would be gone probably within 3-4 minutes, less if there are multiple mobs. That would make it relatively meaningless as a "beneficial buff to a lower player".
WHAT!!! they`re ruining CoT! what`s the point in playing a druid in group hunts if you can`t even buff everyone with your best ability? :O
That just makes my scales quiver. >:(