Talk to the Team: Epic Loot (Implemented)

So, this has come up again as a possible system to implement and we wanted to get feedback from players. We've discussed similar topics in other threads including Rare Loot and so forth, but I wanted a new thread to encompass specific issues related to 2014.

1) This refers to a system by which Epic Mobs (e.g. Valkor, Reklar, Fafnir, Daknor, Son of Gigaroth, Shaloth, etc) would drop a type of Token instead of specific items.

2) These tokens would be traded at one or more vendors who would sell the items the mobs listed above previously dropped. These vendors could also sell additional items, including long-gone items such as Boar's Hide Mask, Rending Blade, Bat of Gnerph, etc.

3) The cost of items would vary, but could have new ones added or removed over time.

The benefit of this system is that it would allow players to fight these epic bosses and earn tokens for items they are interested in. It would broaden the selection of bosses that could be fought for items, reducing the need to camp a specific boss.

The downsides are, of course, that it would make specific drops less special since you could earn tokens from Fafnir or Daknor to buy rare Valkor items.

So, I welcome feedback, suggestions, etc about this proposed system. Thank you!

Feedback: I have a love-hate relationship with this idea, the benefits are good and all to get rid of camping and for people to kill Fafnir and Daknor more, but the other downside i could see is people not killing Reklar or SoG (why SoG? well he takes about 30-50 mins now, no one like Soggy :( ) anymore cause you can just buy the items they drop from the tokens you get from an easier boss. It would also take away the rarity in items if you think about it.

Also, (dont think this matters but) if you bought Valkor items would it really make them 'Valkor items' if 'valkor' isnt dropping them?

Question: If we did get this system would Valkor & Reklar pieces be buyable or would they come whole?

Suggestion: Since Reklar and SoG (and Shaloth, she already doesnt get any love) would probably not get any love if we did this. I think we should do something like this...


Shaloth token = 15g Reklar token = 10g SoG token = 6g Valkor token = 5g Fafnir token = 4g Daknor token = 4g (the prices would probably be different due to how much the epic weapons would be)

I think Tokens should be different prices judging by who you loot it from, the badder it is the more its worth!


Like I said at first, love-hate relationship with this so i dont know.

I am not sure but my worry is that this would increase camping these mobs and maybe a bit of strife between people.

Most people who I knew on chaos (its been a few months) had multiple characters and log ins. Often only a few people kill SoG at a time. Some high leveled multiple classed characters or a few dragons with alts but 1 person behind the controls to kill him. I worry that this would discourage working as a team to kill him. Though I could be wrong.

Also would those tokens be trade able or character bound?

If character bound it would be necessary for those in groups to /random before looting (usually in groups I have been in 1 person loots and then everyone rolls for it who wants the item and then highest wins and the looter trades the item to them)
Just a few things to consider.

:)

Let Fafnir, Gruk, Daknor and Shaloth drop token(as they do not have an own epic loot-except Shaloths piece and potion)-
and leave Reklar, Sog and Valkor the way they are,
but token could be changed into Reklar, SoG and Valkor pieces(!) too.
It should be easier and faster to hunt the 3 bosses than go for token.

A huge resounding YES from me, especially if it includes possible long-gone items!! EDIT: As a happy medium, Lov's idea is wonderful too ;)

As one of the people Agua is talking about (multi-logins killing epics) I welcome anything that could increase interest in these mobs! I don't think it would increase camping, if anything the opposite. If Valkor has just been killed (or worse, not spawning or broke entirely) then we can just move onto any other Epic and kill it instead with an equal chance of the same desired reward. However, I do also very much like Satturn's idea of different amounts of tokens dropping (that's the way I interpreted the Shaloth=15g etc.).

It would be great to have some of these very dangerous but hugely neglected mobs to have a purpose. I don't really think it makes the items less special since you obviously still had to kill many epics to collect the tokens, just as long as named T6 mobs don't make that list and it's kept to the true epics.

The only bit of concern I have is how to handle the differences between the 'whole' items and those which require parts. Will SoG's weapons remain as a whole, or will they be broken into parts? If they remain intact, will they be 4-5 times more expensive than a Valkor/Reklar weapon piece? Or will Reklar/Valkor weapons be sold as completed? If they're kept in their current state, would that mean someone may still be require to hunt 100+ epics to earn enough tokens to buy a Demogii (I kinda hope so :p )

OT: To be honest though, and I don't think I'm alone here, if you want to drum up interest in the current epic mobs which drop pieces or whole weapons, you really need to boost the items themselves please! Besides the Demon Flurry, the rest are just for show. Crafted items give better boosts in many cases. I think to give them a real uniqueness, you need to add the chance for some awesome buffs or debuffs. The staves (Demon and Blood) have these now but the rest of the weapons and armor aren't worth the precious inventory space, given these things take a huge chunk of bulk.

Whatever avenue you take, whatever everyone else thinks, it's just good to know this is still important and something you are looking into, as it is important to me too ;)

My take on this idea would be something like this:

The quest idea-

Players pick up a quest to "Kill Reklar" from the Reklar token vendor. If they get in on a kill and do some amount of damage or healing, and Reklar is killed, the quest finishes. Turn in for a token worth some value (say 1/5th of 1 piece). Also, the boss can drop a token, or even rarely a whole piece, to be random'd for. So, I have incentive to at least participate on kills, even if my chances at winning the random are often low, I always get one token after turning in the quest. After some kills, even loosing all the random's, I can exchange tokens for the piece I need. 5 kill quests completed = 5 tokens, 5 tokens = 1 piece, the old existing pieces we have now such as "Tail 1 of 4".

And thinking back on all the kills I have been in on, 1 token = 1/5th of a piece might be took much. On chaos anyway, Reklar gets killed quite a bit. Anyone who really wants his items and works for them, gets them. so maybe 10 tokens = 1 piece. And for items like tail and sash, where only 4 pieces are needed to complete it, those pieces can cost more than the pieces for say Cudgel or Chakram, which take more pieces to craft. (my values of the tokens is just an example. Dev's can make each token worth more of less as they see fit).

I believe they should all have different tokens. If I want a Reklar Item, I should have to hunt Reklar, not farm Daknor, or dual-box farm SoG. Which can still be done, it just takes longer. (And the separate token idea works in well for the BHM idea below).

Since one of the ideas behind the switch to a token system, would be to try and get more hunts going for Fafnir, Gruk, Daknor, perhaps those three's tokens could buy some of the other old weapons such as Mace of Divine Intervention, The Zealot, The Rancor, or even set piece jewelry (give these items a bit of a boost first though). To make it interesting, these three's tokens could purchase a "present" item, which when used, gives a random piece of the old set piece jewelry.
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Something really desired like a Boar's Mask, should require tokens from all the above. There's probably some way to make this work.. Perhaps each boss's tokens would buy only one specific piece of the boars mask, and it would be craftable. So repeated hunts for all 7 (don't leave out Gruk) would be needed to get all 7 pieces (Gruk the Frigid, Fafnir, Daknor, Son of Gigaroth, Valkor, Shaloth, Reklar. 7 bosses). Say, 20 tokens from each boss, buys that x of 7 piece. (Again, dev's can adjust this value as they see fit).

So, there would be 7 vendors, which both issue the quests to kill their boss, as well as exchange tokens for pieces/forms/items. Each vendor can be in some place in the world. Reklar vendor should be a dragon out of Dralk someplace, perhaps same one that hands out the Primal Boon spell.

I say items, since Sog's items have always been looted whole. Just multiply the cost in tokens up appropriately, or those could be converted to crafted items.

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Mulling this idea over, some players will think the conversion rate I suggest for tokens to pieces is high, but I still feel it is a bit low. We don't want people to farm them for a month and then be done. Then we would be right back where we started.
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One important portion of this, would be to make sure all the items are worth acquiring. The curses on Reklars Tail, Cudgel (and chakram?) which increase incoming damage when fighting undead should be reversed, the damage against undead should be lowered a bit instead. Sog's Demon Axe's bleed effect should be made Aoe again. The Blood Talon should cast ethereal leech VI. The Bloodthorn bow should have the delay lowered to 30. The Demon Spike should have 11% chance for 1 extra attacks.
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A few new weapons might need to be thrown in the mix as well, to help sweeten the offerings available from the Gruk/Daknor/Fafnir vendors: A Dagger, A Shilleagh, Handwraps. Use existing weapons/models in the game, which might be decent epic weapons with some re-tooling.

Another way to maybe get the lower bosses some love, is require maybe 1 token from a gruk kill along with the normal count of Reklar tokens, to trade for the reklar piece (assuming there is a way to have a vendor charge 2 different token types for 1 item).
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The quest method at least returns some small reward for a players participation, regardless of winning a random.

Individual token types for every boss ensures they all get some hunts. And I can't farm daknor to get a valkor item. This would totally cheapen the tough bosses' items. This is my biggest point concerning this whole idea of token drops, being able to spend one bosses tokens on something else. That is a no-go piece of the idea for me.

Tokens should be sellable/tradeable. No point attuning them since the end pieces must remain trade-able, since they may need traded to a crafter. This might encourage some marketplace activity.

Tokens are good idea, though, they should simply replace the bosses loot table. I mean, Valkor would drop Valkor tokens for Valkors pieces. Having easier bosses drop equivalent tokens would make the harder bosses not worth the time, especially if you can box your own group up to do so.

Introduce some new loot with some of the unloved bosses, so that their tokens are worthwhile. Have items requiring a combination of tokens to get.

I can see the camping for Boar's Hide Masks now ... all you're missing is block jewelry and ds/dmg crystals!

The idea behind the tokens here to give everyone something for their time and effort put into the hunts instead of rolling randoms and hoping for the best is awesome. No time wasted.

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I think 7 tokens and vendors is a no-go for us, its potentially VERY confusing and a pain to manage and setup.

One thing we'd already planned was to have bosses drop different amounts of tokens (based on difficulty) and also have different items have differing values (so yes, items like Boar's Hide Mask or Demongii would be VERY expensive). The need to re-assemble items would remain as they are now.

I like the idea of a quest to get extra tokens, perhaps a daily.

Currently items range from 20 to 50 Tokens (Valkor and Reklar item components), 200 to 400 Tokens (SoG items, Boar's Hide Mask), to 1000 or more for Epic spells (using the effects not in-game such as Soul Gate, Wrath of the Power Demon, Fireflies, etc).

Bosses would drop anywhere from 10 to 50 (based on difficulty).

One additional consideration is that we're looking into the possibility of having Tier 6 Anchors drop these Tokens as well. Thoughts?

I love the idea that bosses would drop enough tokens that everyone who participates can come away with something for their efforts.
Yes please include t6 anchors.

I have to side the other way on this. I don't see anything wrong with the system at the moment.
It encourages group play and organised events.

I see the new system just being somewhat chaotic. ie, what if a group is already fighting say Reklar and somebody else just jumps in towards the end and gets a Token.
This style of guaranteed drop system only leads to 'ninja style' of play and we all know it took long enough to get rid of that from Istaria, at the expense of a few Guilds albeit.
If people want said shiney items then they have to work and trade for them. Devaluing epic items is not the way forward, they are Epic loot but they are not 'needed' to play or kill any Boss.

Increase the list of items dropped to include those never used Epic spells by all means, it will encourage more group play. Or even set the system up for the new items but leave the old ones alone.
I personally think inventing an 'End game' situation is a slippery slope that no other MMO has been able to do so why add Istaria to that list.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

I agree with this to a point. Hunts for items would kind of lull off - If there's no epic drop, there's no reason to roll and compete for it or even organize special hunts. That being said, it is very hard to win special items - *ahem* Demon Claw - and tokens would be a good to help create a few more of these. :) The one that mentioned that token values should go up as the teir of creature you're fighting does - more worth for Shaloth and Reklar than Fafnir and Daknor - seemed to be on to something there. Maybe the lesser epics drop "Lesser Epic Tokens" worth 4g (or whatever currency), the mid-range bosses such as SoG drop "Epic Tokens" worth 6g and the higher range bosses like Reklar and Shaloth drop "Greater Epic Tokens" worth 8g. Just a twist on an already good idea proposed below without customizing each and every epic mob.

Amon was saying they would just change the quantity if tokens dropped in place of the value. It accomplishes same thing.

If they refuse to do separate tokens for each boss, (probably because they do not want to have to create new drops for the lower bosses) then I think the respawn timers of all these bosses needs increased. This way, a typical hunt group will go from boss 1 to boss 2, etc. and include the lower bosses in the cycle.

If the number of tokens dropped is fairly high, that would make them easy to divide. So instead of random'ing, we could just evenly split them, and maybe random for the 1 or 2 leftovers. This I think would be acceptable.

But I would much prefer that the lower bosses had their own loot, and that we had to hunt reklar to get reklar pieces.

If you go with a single token and a single vendor, the "prices" should be much higher than what I originally speculated. And the respawn timers should go up to maybe 4 to 6 hours. This will encourage all the little bosses to get hit.

I actually love this idea. I get tired of walking away with nothing for weeks at a time with the current loot / random system in epic fights... that frustration usually leads me to avoid them for awhile but then the lure of hunting epics calls me back. Some meaningful walk away would just make it more interesting. Bringing back legacy items for those patient enough to hoard their tokens is great.

I dont think multiple vendors is that complicated. The setup might be complex but it's not anywhere near impossible. That would give a lot of flexibility as well.

Regardless, this is an interesting raiding scenario that would allow multiple groups to fight for benefit rather than the same group fighting all of the epics in endless cycles day in and day out then charging your first born for their work.

-Vara

Is it 'one' drop of tokens per boss kill that need to be randomed and shared?, or is it an amount of tokens to each player per boss kill automatically?

I like Guaran's quest idea to kill Reklar and come back to get a token or more for helping. :)

The idea to have the boss drop 10-50 tokens, you would probably have to roll for some amount of them if group isn't even.. so its kinda going back to the rolling for pieces idea. It would be easier for them to drop a Greater token so you can roll and be done. (that is worth more then ones you get from quest, all bosses would drop them and give same amount) or drop a weapon piece unless were totally getting rid of weapon dropping. Then you could return the quest and get 1-10 tokens depending on boss you killed.


Oh and please add anchors too, they need some love too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chasing

Is it 'one' drop of tokens per boss kill that need to be randomed and shared?, or is it an amount of tokens to each player per boss kill automatically?

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There is no system for group loot in Istaria so it would be one "batch" of tokens per kill. Split them however you like. Entertaining the daily quest idea as a way to acquire a few more individually as well.

I'm sorry if my post doesn't reflect the previous posts, I don't have much time to write this.

From my experiences of doing epic battles, I welcome the idea of a token system. Yes it can reduce the sense of accomplishment once you finally craft that five piece item you waited so long for, but that's my problem. A piece that you may not see for such a long time, you begin to lose interest in it. I am my own victim at that. And of course, there is always a lack of a piece you want on the market, and some are just never for sale. whether that person owned it already or not.

I can't say how long I have been waiting for 1 or 2 pieces of something, especially adding on the fact that an epic group was hard for me to find, let alone the proper time to log on and join. I'm sure there are others like me in the same situation. Personally I feel it winds down to small, personal groups.

If tokens were dropped, this means that if you do manage to get a spot in one of these groups, you can at least know for certain that your time is going towards an item that you want, not a piece you have no intention of using, or a chance that the epic emptied its pockets before attacking. (Love those days, don't you?)

Now, a token from any boss for any weapon or item is foolish, of course. What if it were something like boss-specific tokens? Example, fight Rekkles? You get a token to go towards Reklar items, not Valky or SoG, etc. As well as that, only the bosses that drop item pieces, should drop tokens. This would exclude SoG, etc, from the list since he drops whole weapons.

That's my basic suggestion anyway. After all, I am only speaking from experience, not facts and spreadsheets here ;) At least this way, everyone makes progress.

Cheers for hearing me out.
- That ol' purple.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I think 7 tokens and vendors is a no-go for us, its potentially VERY confusing and a pain to manage and setup.

One thing we'd already planned was to have bosses drop different amounts of tokens (based on difficulty) and also have different items have differing values (so yes, items like Boar's Hide Mask or Demongii would be VERY expensive). The need to re-assemble items would remain as they are now.

I like the idea of a quest to get extra tokens, perhaps a daily.

Currently items range from 20 to 50 Tokens (Valkor and Reklar item components), 200 to 400 Tokens (SoG items, Boar's Hide Mask), to 1000 or more for Epic spells (using the effects not in-game such as Soul Gate, Wrath of the Power Demon, Fireflies, etc).

Bosses would drop anywhere from 10 to 50 (based on difficulty).

One additional consideration is that we're looking into the possibility of having Tier 6 Anchors drop these Tokens as well. Thoughts?

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Ossum. Hz rez inc!

It's funny that someone earlier in game was mentioning how it would cheapen their collection stockpile if something like this were implemented... yet, if it meant that it would draw more interest in doing some of these boss encounters, that it could be an awesome benefit server overall. Stir up some activity 'end game' and not just the rating grind or city build.

Perhaps the epics and not so epic named ones could drop some of the legacy formulas and techniques that no longer drop...?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I think 7 tokens and vendors is a no-go for us, its potentially VERY confusing and a pain to manage and setup.

One thing we'd already planned was to have bosses drop different amounts of tokens (based on difficulty) and also have different items have differing values (so yes, items like Boar's Hide Mask or Demongii would be VERY expensive). The need to re-assemble items would remain as they are now.

I like the idea of a quest to get extra tokens, perhaps a daily.

Currently items range from 20 to 50 Tokens (Valkor and Reklar item components), 200 to 400 Tokens (SoG items, Boar's Hide Mask), to 1000 or more for Epic spells (using the effects not in-game such as Soul Gate, Wrath of the Power Demon, Fireflies, etc).

Bosses would drop anywhere from 10 to 50 (based on difficulty).

One additional consideration is that we're looking into the possibility of having Tier 6 Anchors drop these Tokens as well. Thoughts?

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If you go this route, I would just say make the item pieces more expensive, and the Boars mask should cost the same as the new epic spells.

I'm just worried that a month will pass, and everyone will be done with epic hunts.

I do think some new system, which can reward every group member equally, is a positive step forward.

I like that you want to include Fafnir, Gruk, Daknor in the mix.

Not a fan of the idea that Daknor could be farmed for tokens and someone could get a Reklar item.... This just makes Reklar hunts obsolete. Would still much prefer that the lower bosses dropped their own token types, purchasable for their specific weapons. (You could recycle the Rancor, Zealot, Mace of Divine intervention, or make a few new epic weapons as I suggested before. It really shouldn't be that difficult. Epic handwraps (15% chance for 1 extra attacks), healer mace/cudgel, dagger that mages can use, etc.).

There's many ways a daily quest could be done. My first quest idea was that the quest would allow all the players to get some reward, regardless of who won the random for any dropped loot. You can probably accomplish the same by having the big number of tokens drop, which we can divide evenly. So the quest for additional tokens may not be needed.

However, a quest to kill some bosses could help ensure those bosses are hunted. Mainly thinking of the lower bosses. So a quest could be to "Kill Daknor, Kill Fafnir, Kill Gruk" and then award a "token bag" which works like the coin bags do. Open it up and you are awarded a random number of tokens between x and y. Say 6 to 18. Or it could just award a set number. But perhaps a quest like this one would help ensure that those three bosses are hunted, so it still might have a place. Maybe have another grouping which includes the more difficult bosses, and awards a larger return. The quests would just ensure the bosses are more evenly hunted, rather than one being farmed over and over. The quests could give larger rewards than the average drop count from bosses divided by average group size. So players would want to do the quests, and therefore ensures that all the bosses would be getting regular hunts. If the quests give the largest rewards, and each quest requires multiple bosses to be hunted, this could work out nice. Quests would be limited to once a day or something.