Suggestions for Ranger (please test on Blight TY.)

I've read so many forum posts in the past few days and they all seem to be falling into madness each time. What's up with y'all? We gotta be friendly. This is our game we're taking care of, as a community.

Now disclaimer: I'm not max level yet. I'm only around level 50, but I've been thinking...

The problem: Ranger had a lot of potential with stun-chaining, but the fact is, removing that ability or making it harder to trigger the ability makes Ranger useless in some scenarios/more difficult to play. We need to find other ways to make Ranger appealing besides just stun chaining. I find Ranger appealing because of the arrow buffs, it's passives, and it's ability to use Cloak of Thorns, but even so, Cloak of Thorns honestly should not be one of the main reasons I find Ranger appealing, because Druid can use that ability, and Ranger is, well, ranged, but it is a viable ability nonetheless.

The arrow buffs are fun to play with, but most of us just use Lightning Arrows (or Spirit Arrows, in some cases sh). Why? It's useful. In fact, it's way more useful than all of the other arrow buffs, especially before Surthiem was stun immune. It was so useful that our dev friends decided to nerf it, which made some of our Ranger players angry, as is expected.

Interestingly, if Lightning Arrows only affects special abilities, why don't the other arrow buffs do? Unless I happened to miss it or mistake the update notes, I find that kind of weird. It's almost as if they're negligible and don't require a balancing nerf along with Lightning Arrows because they're already pretty useless... oh wait.

Until I find a usage for Flame Arrows, a usage for Ice Arrows besides Surthiem (when not using Lightning Arrows), and when the time comes that I can't decide between Spirit Arrows and Lightning Arrows (besides mobs that resist nature), I will keep using Lightning Arrows, and I will keep saying that Lightning Arrows is the main reason Rangers maintain their dignity as a "strong" or "useful" Bowman, when that very ability is the only viable ability to carry the class throughout the world (again, feel free to challenge this idea, I'm not fully experienced, but I do see the potential in this ability comparatively to the others). Even so, 50% proc chance is a gamble on its own. It either procs a lot, or very little. Then we take into account temporary stun immunity, which can negate the stun entirely. Throw a ranger into a party, and their proc could be blocked by another temporary stun immunity triggered by a teammate's Tailwhip. If you want still to nerf Lightning Arrows, reduce the trigger rate, or revamp stunning methods for Ranger entirely based on suggestions made by the community (or if you have another suggestion, please do tell!).

When you think about Ranger, what comes to mind? Stuns. Just stuns. Maybe hitting from a further distance than a normal bowman, but nothing /too/ horrifying. Kind of boring, right? Fighting a single Ranger, it is easy to overpower it by stunning it back because it can't stun you again, and thus it becomes extremely vulnerable. Fighting multiple Rangers (and all they do is stun) makes it near impossible. It feels like Ranger is limited in its usage of tactics due to other abilities being relatively subpar or similar to other classes, but I could be wrong!

I don't want to "attempt" to chain stun all my life, even when I played Druid, which was torturous on its own (though that's a little more on the 'manual labor' side).

Ranger has some masterable abilities, but mostly just takes from Scout and Druid. Ranger also has Envenomed Arrow, which requires venom from spiders in order to be used. It is a very interesting class, and an alternative to Druid, if you wanted CoT and Growth. I do have to say, it is unnecessary to completely change what skills are affected by Lightning Arrows. Lowering the trigger rate should have been fine, especially with the boosted stun immunity.

People who have already played the class should definitely help make decisions, but I don't care how long you've played Ranger, if at all. You may have fought Ranger and nature classes already, so you might have experienced the type of things they can do (in which, by all means, give some feedback! It's helpful anyway, and can help others brainstorm. :) ).

Coming from someone who has played Dragon for most of their Istarian career, I don't want to be the only person trying to think of ideas here. :/ You tell me what a Ranger is! To me, it sounds like someone who shoots from afar, aiming for weak points in a target's body. The word "ranger" also reminds me of a farm range, far, far away from the commotion, but still having an impact on the society. I want us to work together to make this class more fun and less of a drag, even if it means going back to where we began; before the changes happened.

Also, if you think the changes are helping us in the right direction (or should not be changed further), tell us why!

BTW: NO FIGHTING PLEASE. KEEP IT CIVIL, OR I'LL ASK TO CLOSE THE DISCUSSION. sorry for wall of text. c:

I'm not directly involved in rebalancing ranger, but I want to reiterate a point that Liseth made in another thread: Nerfing something opens the doors to buffing other abilities. We never planned to just nerf something and leave it at that; removing overwhelming power from one ability gives us the chance to redefine it and place it into other abilities.

To help your discussion along, I'll quote some points that AmonGwareth had written with his ideas on changing other abilities to make Ranger more overall viable. I hope it answers some of your questions.

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

These changes were about seriously unbalanced abilities. However, I am open to discussion about them since we have time for additional changes/tweaks.

• Lightning Arrows - Having a stun on every single attack is incredibly unbalanced. I changed it to special attacks as that seems more reasonable. I am open to adding a different effect to the ability for every regular attack, perhaps extra damage or a chance to give an energy DoT.
• Stun, Root, Banish, Bleed, and Mez Resistance. This is necessary so that monsters get a chance to attack and use their abilities and aren't stunned into immobility for every fight.
• A 14s stun is crazy. It really is. However, I admit that I overreacted by lowering it so far. I am considering raising it to 6s and making it AoE.

As far as the schools themselves, I am open to suggestions about how to improve them. Though adding more stuns or longer stuns isn't going to happen.

Looking at Ranger... One thing is that Ranger doesn't feel like it has a central purpose. Is it a nuker, a crowd controller, what. Some specific ability changes though....

• Skin Like abilities +132 armor at level 88... That doesn't seem very useful. I mean, better than nothing, but not game-changing. Might be something we could do there. Raise the value, or change it to be a % resistance or damage reduction
• Headshot. Maybe this could have a debuff... Afterall, its a HEAD shot. So maybe a disorient debuff that impacts the target's recycle and/or to-hit.
• Heartseeker. Another one that could use a debuff to go with its name. A chance to cause a severe bleed perhaps.

Elemental Archer

• Flame Arrows. Had thoughts to maybe have this give the "Burning" debuff. That way future flame attacks by anyone would do greater damage.
• Ice Arrows. Could maybe tie this with Shatter/IceTomb? Work similar to Burning, but with Ice.
• Lightning Arrows. Mentioned above.
• Spirit Arrows. It was a healing arrow, a drain, but maybe it should do something else? Ethereal damage? Or a Spirit DoT? Something similar to "soul link" so that future damage heals the attacker for a time?

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

I'm not going to get into an argument about each individual point, it doesn't accomplish much more than raise everyone's blood pressure. However, we do have time before the next update and we are reading and listening for ideas about how to improve things. Lightning Arrows was broken, but just because it wasn't fixed years ago doesn't mean it should never be fixed.

How do we improve other things around it moving forward? How do we make it more useful and interesting beyond stun-locking mobs? That is what we're all wanting, what we're looking at.

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Originally Posted by AmonGwareth

"You rarely get stun immunity and it's awful. Even if immunity procs, it is immediately gone by the time you move 1 foot. "


This is part of the issue with the current method for getting stun immunity and why stun-lock is still possible. It uses a trick with the timer system so that at the very last second it gives the immunity. If you keep getting hit by stuns it will negate this because it will never reach the end of the timer. Stuns should not be something that occur every single moment, chained or otherwise, they should be something used tactically in combat to interrupt or change the tide.

The goal should be to make stuns used less frequently in order to allow for the addition and improvement of other abilities that can help make combat more fun and engaging.

That aside, some things I have on my notes to look at for the next delta are:

• Compare Bow and CBow DPS to 2-H DPS and to Bolt DPS. Something seems off with ranged attack damage, you should be doing a good amount to compensate for the relative lack of protection.
• Look at recycle times of Headshot, Heartseeker, Ranged Flurry and others.
• Look at implementing some of the changes mentioned above to Arrows and to Ranger attacks.
• Investigate stun abilities again. I suspect some are getting overwritten causing the immunity to not proc or that some aren't classified properly.

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hese changes were about seriously unbalanced abilities. However, I am open to discussion about them since we have time for additional changes/tweaks.

• Lightning Arrows - Having a stun on every single attack is incredibly unbalanced. I changed it to special attacks as that seems more reasonable. I am open to adding a different effect to the ability for every regular attack, perhaps extra damage or a chance to give an energy DoT.

As I have stated in the last thread. Lightning arrow does not have a stun on every hit. it has a 50% chance to stun. SO maybe lower it to a 25% chance and leave it off the abilities.

xWaterwingx If I read you right? you were talking about ranger getting more distance than other bow schools. they already have extra range, it's a passive ability. You also mentioned spirit arrow, flame arrow. this may be confusing.. but Ranger doesn't get either of these 2 arrows, we get lightning arrow and ice arrow. Flame arrow, Spirit arrow and Ice belong to the ELAR school.

I do like Amon's idea's about changing some of the abilities. I am against linking lightning arrow to them, as he is confused about how lightning arrow actually works. Lightning arrow as i mentioned above, should basically be left alone, other than if he wishes to lower it's change % to 25 as opposed to 50% chance to stun it is currently. I would also like you to consider putting the 2 stuns up to 8 secs. that seems fair enough and middle ground. Bleed on heart shot, stuns/mez disorient or something on headshot.

I think i've calmed down enough, it takes a lot to get this old dog off the porch. If the devs are willing to listen, I'm willing to make suggestions, I like what I see on the reaver thread and on the previous one.

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Originally Posted by Malicore

xWaterwingx If I read you right? you were talking about ranger getting more distance than other bow schools. they already have extra range, it's a passive ability.

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Ranger does have extra range, yes, but I wasn't suggesting to add more distance. I wanted to make more use out of that ability and its meaning. If Rangers are going to have more distance, they would have the skill for this type of combat style (higher accuracy), which is what I was thinking when I said it could be possible to aim for specific points on the body of an enemy, but not by changing the game mechanics.

While a bowman for closer combat would use a type of arrow that would do more damage wherever it hit, pierce armor (Crossbowman), or the ability to shoot manly arrows quickly, a Ranger would use quick, sleek arrows to pierce flesh and stop the enemy from performing certain movements or to stop it completely. Many of those abilities are already given to us, in order to serve as a means of defense for all ranged classes, but there is little variability, I'd say, between each of these classes. I only say that because there are many abilities they share with each other and other classes, but there are not many that make them unique as their own class (besides ELAR).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malicore

You also mentioned spirit arrow, flame arrow. this may be confusing.. but Ranger doesn't get either of these 2 arrows, we get lightning arrow and ice arrow. Flame arrow, Spirit arrow and Ice belong to the ELAR school.

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About Spirit Arrow and Flame Arrow, I may have confused Ranger with ELAR for a time when I had read Amon's statement, whoops! It was, of course, one in the morning. My bad :)

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I would definitely like to see improvements to the abilities mentioned in Amon's messages. If Lightning Arrows remains a problem, lowering it proc chance to 25% is fine. I like the bleed on Heartseeker, and if tied to a stance, maybe increase the duration of bleed or damage?

If you get shot in the head, be it an arrow or a bullet, most often the brain immediately stops all functions of the outer cortex (so, you can't move, understand speech, etc) in order to preserve oxygen and keep core functions going, and the bullet/arrow damages the brain faster than it can realize, so you would collapse immediately. A stun would fit this type of situation the most. In humans, the brain can survive for between 1-3 minutes on the oxygen supply the blood has within the brain (rare cases 6-10 minutes). If circulation is not restored by then, the human dies due to organ failure. Anywho, it doesn't have to be a stun, but I'd say 4-8 seconds is alright. If we are going for recycle or to-hit, it would have to be severely lowered or increased (for recycle).

For skin-like abilities, I'd say keep it a flat value, but do raise the value some. A percentage would let it scale as the player gains more armor, and that doesn't seem right for a class that isn't required to be in the fray.

At the moment, this is all I can manage to type for now, as I have a rather terrible headache. I'll come back later!

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Originally Posted by Trust

I think i've calmed down enough, it takes a lot to get this old dog off the porch. If the devs are willing to listen, I'm willing to make suggestions, I like what I see on the reaver thread and on the previous one.

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Please reply to the Reaver thread for your feedback there so Amon can see if not already done so. ;) I have not checked that thread since Yesterday.

For Thunder Cloud, I propose you copy Primal Chains:
Primal Chains V
Delay 20
Recycle 0:10
Range 40
level 80 (800)
Limits speed to 0
Limits fly height to 0
Limits fly speed to 0
Removed after 1600 damage taken
Removed after 6 hits taken
Cannot be dispelled
Duration 0:30
That seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Rangers rely heavilly on stuns, that’s a fact. Ranger was designed as a jack of all trades class, the definition of average. Without an epic bow, Rangers lack burst damage. Without stuns, Ranger rapidly loses viability and survivability. The reason veteran multiclass players gravitate toward it is A) mystic hybrid B) better armor than druid C) CoT D) stuns. E) Demon Bow. Rangers rate of fire makes them very good for trash mobs, but low damage and poor burst damage makes for a 5 minute fight against a WA healer or heavilly armored opponent.
As far as lightning arrows, lets look at the other arrow abilities:
Spirit: spirit damage and 30% chance to drain 100% damage, soon to change.
Flame: flame damage, 110% damage, 30% chance to land an engulf III
Ice: ice damage, 70% chance to land frozen III, 70% chance to land pinion.
Lightning: nature damage, 50% chance to land a 3 second stun.
So, what is an acceptable, equitable compromise? A dot like decay III? A debuff like staggering howl? A flat increase to damage like flame arrow? A reduction in the chance to proc as Malicore suggested? I would prefer the staggering howl debuff, the loss of a stun won’t sting as much if I am getting hit less.
Headshot, maybe add an effect like debase or warped perception.
There is another’ skin like’ that rangers don’t get, skin like thornwood, +164 armor and a 5% chance to do 25-33 pierce dmg to enemies that hit you. Guardians get at 98: perhaps add it to Ranger. More damage mitigation would increase survivability.
Bow damage has always been poor, and the spread is very wide. Please examine why. My guess it has something to do with delay adjustment. In my mind increased damage would help to increase survivability. By rate of comparison my t6 bow has a DPS of 26.43. My t6 maul and t6 2h sword have a DPS of 31 and 30 respectively.
Heartseeker has a high recycle time (3:00) and shares a timer so I’m not sure what to tell you. I don’t use it much, I rely on the quicker recycling abilities. If you wanted to add a debuff maybe something like curse of enfeeblement or a bleed.
Another thing to consider is the linked timers, I know it was an issue in the past, but I don’t know if anyone ever made any progress with it. What good is headshot, powershot and heartseeker if they all share a timer? Why does multishot share a timer with long shot?
*EDIT* I like Malicore's idea for an 8 second timer on the 2 stuns, if you are still considering making thundercloud an AoE, even better.

Other thing to consider is that many of the abilities we talk about are not Ranger unique, but rather inherited or shared with other schools... heartseeker, headshot, skin like. Borung. The school needs a purpose and a set of its own abilities that make it interesting and unique.