10 Years Later...

So it's been about 10 years since I last played Hor... I mean, Istaria. I probably popped in here and there, but not actually played.

Coming back after 10 years, and especially after being a widely traveled MMO gamer, I have to say I'm not seeing much of a reason to stay, and I hope that these views might give some insight as to why.

- Nothing has changed. Now a quick review of update notes tells me that there have been changes, but I'm talking about major changes. Things that would warrant this game charging what it does, when so many other games offer more for free.

- Graphics are a big thing - and they haven't changed. The engine seems to have that moth-ball smell all over it. I remember coming from EverQuest to then-named Horizons, and it was amazing. Now going back, it's just disappointing. Some higher resolution textures would be a great start, and increasing the render distance for some stunning far-off views. Adding more optional particle effects would also go well, especially if you allowed us to crank up the density of those particles. None of those changes require new models, and only the textures would be new art assets. You could even make them an optional download. (Which reminds me, wasn't there an optional high-res download at one point?)

- Client: The client is still as buggy as I remember. It's crashed about 4 times on me. Granted, I'm running Windows 10, so there may be some compatibility issues, but there really shouldn't be as Windows 10 has been brilliant with playing nice elsewhere. The client is also lacking when it comes to features. Where is copy and paste functionality? It's not in the right-click menu, which is standard GUI practice. I also had my chat window completely close, and NOT remember settings. It took time and help from another player to sort that out. Time I could have spent playing the game. Elements like a mini map, quest tracker - these are standard features and expected in most MMOs. The map itself doesn't interact in an intuitive fashion as well. Scrolling in and out, for example, takes a few to get right.

- More on intuitive use: There's a lot of things that are "different", and I know that older players are used to that. The problem is that MMOs have grown quite a bit in the last 10 years and a rather standard "look and feel" has emerged. The way the mouse interacts and moves you is contrary to that, and the way "quests" are displayed takes me back to the days of EverQuest when we had to /say keywords to interact with NPCs. Hyperlinks are newer, but quest dialogues that display the information quickly and orderly are even better. What do I get for a quest? Is this a progression of sorts? What is the point of it? The lore mixes with the quest info as well, and makes it hard to sort out what you're supposed to be doing and what is optional reading.

- Server/Backbone: I see we still haven't fixed the issue where NPCs load incredibly slowly and not until you're right on top of them. I have a faster connection now after 10 years, and a much faster computer. I remember Tulga telling me that it was my system and my connection. That can't be said now, especially as I've come to learn quite a bit about networking and programming over the last 10 years. Other games, such as Wurm Online, also dynamically load and render content as you progress through the world. How can they manage to do it so well, where Istaria fails so hard?


To make this not so overly critical, I do like a few things that haven't changed much - such as the crafting. I missed the crafting here, and multi-classing (on bipeds anyway). If you guys could release a new client with upgraded (and optional) graphics, and bring your backend up to par with what's standard for today's games, I really think Istaria could have a lot of life brought back into it. It's still a unique game in many areas (Dragons!), but why would a player coming back like me pay money for just *that* feature? Perhaps when Istaria was the only real sandbox game out there, when it was the only game that really had "flying" as a feature, perhaps then it was worth it.

Right now, it needs to catch up.

So if I may make a bold suggestion? Kickstarter/GoFundMe/IndieGoGo - raise funds. Be specific and be ambitious. Drive a crowd-funded version 2.0 that will bring us old players back (you still have our e-mails!) and entice new players to get involved. You could even make a basic $20 donation give game time to an existing account. So we can donate *and* play what we remember.

Anyway, this isn't even my soap box. I think I stole it from a gnome. So I'll step down off it now, and hope this post doesn't inspire trolling or "fanboi-ism". Or get locked/deleted and I banned. I'm not really sure how things are run these days.

I concur...

Bravo. I applaud your common sense and analysis of the game and what needs to change. You'll find that not much will change, however, for a multitude of reasons (I suggested many of these things well over a year ago). I just wanted to praise your extremely logical and thought-out post before the inevitable rush of fanboys comes about.

My boyfriend would also like to pitch in:

Since I refuse to post in the forums due to the annoyance of the fanboys/fangirls that know nothing more than "Isty is greatest MMO lulz", I would also like to plop my praise of your post. It's EXTREMELY well thought-out, well said, and of course, very true.

Doesn't mean Isty is a bad game for everyone, obviously, but I think it's ALSO obvious why there aren't many players.

Thank you for your comments. The irony is that a fanboy/zealot will not have much to be a fan of eventually. Istaria needs a lot of modernization to compete with today's games, and I'm not talking about AAA games even. Just indie games in general. Like I also said before, the things that made Istaria unique are now being found commonly in newer games. I haven't found one that has sandbox, multi-classing, and playable dragons all in one yet, but that doesn't mean much.

This game, as it stands now, is obsolete. Daybreak (formerly SOE) can afford to keep EverQuest going because they still make a profit off of it. I would absolutely love to see the balance sheets for Virtrium. A lot of indie games post those statistics for their players to see, so the players can see growth and such.

Hmm very true, but if you read the announcement post from a dev, it said they are going to be working on graphics and models all year

...and as I do love istaria, I and no one I have ever met was a screaming fanboy/fan girl.....ever.

(Turned out longer than expected - such is my curse)

My agreement with the OP is tempered...

For me, graphics has never been the deciding factor as long as it isn't so high end that I can't play it. Personally, while there are a few glitches here and there, I actually prefer Istaria's graphics over that of WoW, EQ and EvE. ESO has by far the best graphics, but then that should be expected from an Elder Scrolls franchise, but sometimes simple is nice.

"Nothing has changed" - Considering the trials and tribulations this game has gone thru in these past ten years, I think the latest owners/developers have done a monumental job with what little (IMO) personnel and financial resources they have. I think to expect 'BIG' changes trying to oversimplify the idea of adding content to a game, dated or not.

"Client is still Buggy" - Yes, it still has hiccups, more so it seems on my Win8 vs. Win7 machine - BUT - I'm not re-launching the game every 15-20 like I used to, or after every other port. Now it's more like 2-3 hours, sometimes more depending on what I'm doing. I can only assume that these are some of the things that are going to be addressed throughout the rest of the year.

"Intuitive Use" - Well to be honest here I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. From what I am gathering, it seems much of it is tied to key-bindings which you can change on your own to suit your preference. I have found a couple controls to be 'different' from other games. I actually prefer Istaria's character movement using both mouse and keyboard because to me it actually feels more natural than some of the other games I play which seem more like they are ports from console controllers with little regard for ease of use.

"Server/Backbone" - Can't disagree here, but again things are improved over the way they used to be. Sadly, from the way I understand things, this may not be an easy fix until/unless they start working on the client itself - though it could be something as simple as some code streamlining and DB efficiencies.

"Crafting and multi-classing" - have to totally agree here and I think it is Istaria's strongest point. I have yet to hear of a game that has such a richly detailed crafting and multi-classing system. The crafting more than anything else is what keeps me coming back because there is no game that comes even close. Yes, many games allow you to craft your weapons and armor (ESO might actually be better in that regard) - but how many allow you to own an actual piece of the real estate (not an instanced 'suite') where you can plan and build it to your heart's content?

"Why would a player pay real money?" - GAHHHHHH! This one thing right here is what ticks me off the most. Why does just about everyone and their brother think they should be able to play these games (any of them, not just Istaria) for free? It takes time, infrastructure and people to make and run these things. By saying you want it for free you are saying that stuff doesn't matter and the people running/programming shouldn't get paid either. Paying $15 a month for a game, whether it be Istaria, EVE, or ESO is probably the most cost-effective entertainment option out there:

Go to a Movie: 2 hours of entertainment on average and you've got travel time/costs and unless you are doing the matinee and sneaking in your own food/drinks - well that one movie easily cost more than a month of game playing

Going to a Bar/Club: HAHAHA! If there's a cover charge well that can range from $5-$25 and even drinking sodas like I do (when I used to club) it's still easy to spend that $15 in an hour or so...again don't forget travel time/cost/parking

There are many scenarios I could play out for you, but in probably 90% of them you'll spend the cost of a month's subscription in a couple hours - whereas how much time you spend in the game world (game doesn't matter) - whether it's an hour a day, several hours a weekend or significantly more - you're talking cents/hour for your entertainment.

Bottom line: Nothing comes for free and there aren't many more cost-effective ways to spend your entertainment money than an online game (excluding those P2W games with cash shops)

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"Kickstarter/GoFundMe/IndieGoGo" - I like your proposal here and it's been suggested several times in the past. I'd want to know first before they try to do something like this - what would it cost to make these changes, new art, music, developers/programmers, etc.? Time line? What happens to the current game? But unlike your comment about being 'ambitious' - DONT be too ambitious as that has been the downfall of many of these crowd funded plans - be realistic and to the point, don't oversell or people will sniff that out in a heart beat.

You also touched on one other thing that I haven't seen in any other game yet either that is also one of Istaria's strong points - it's players! Partly I think it's because there is no PvP here and IMO too many games are taking this route and making it the prime mover. Other than that though, other than ESO I have yet to see a game where the people are as friendly and helpful as they are in Istaria. Maybe it's because of that niche-size population or something else I don't know.

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Now whether you see me as a 'fan boy' I don't know...like I said there are some things I can agree with. At the same time I'm able to take in the age of the game, the complexities of running such a game on a small bankroll/workforce and roll with it. I'd much rather see the game hang around for another ten years as is than simply disappear because they tried to bite off more than they could accomplish by going with a crowd funding option.

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Originally Posted by Magradon

Hmm very true, but if you read the announcement post from a dev, it said they are going to be working on graphics and models all year

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Is this true? I'd love to see us get some new graphics and models :o

The post Magradon mentioned is this one, where they mention being able to update textures and models. So yes, some graphical updates will be made. However, due to engine limitations, I wouldn't expect drastic, modern-day levels of graphics changes from that snippet of news. Mostly because 1) I remember them mentioning normal maps aren't a thing in their engine (which is unfortunately very integral to details in textures these days) and 2) I don't think there's much of an art team left? They could probably find some game artists that play that would volunteer to update assets, like myself, but I'm not sure what's in the works currently.

I have to agree, except on at least one point.

The graphics in game are not 'bad' they have aged fairly well. In all honestly it would help a whole lot more if they took the time to design a new interface system and overhaul it. It'd make the initial game play a whole lot better. Just entering the world was a pain in the rear as it takes forever to figure out how to get things arranged on the screen in a reasonable fashion that works well. It's still the jumbled up mess it was back in the day.
For me the playable dragon race is the biggest thing in this game. It's the reason I started playing originally and it's the reason I fell in love with it. No other MMO to this day has held my attention consecutively as this one. I'd definitely be willing to back/fund some real hard work to be put down into this game to bring it up to better standards and some advertising to get new and old players alike back.

I have came back a few times and tried to play especially after my last game got canceled. Understand I played day one and for a year trying to support the game hoping it would be fixed yes way back in the day. Then I moved on to other games and when I have come back a few times it was just a snooze fest trying to level. I am not a dragon guy so I play bipeds but the issue with the classes nothing has changed with them period same old attacks same old everything.All Single target attack no aoe attacks added in to make life interesting to add flavor to farming nope the same old ST snooze fest which was fine 10 years ago but now days not so much. I could deal with older graphics if the biped game play was not so boring killing creatures way to slow for the xp and makes you fall asleep fighting them.

Have no clue on dragon but the Biped game play needs to be revamped as well some aoes added to the game and things along that line maybe a little faster leveling. I mean the multi-classing was sweet and the crafting great and debuffs/buffs where great but the combat is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz now days. Just my two cents on another big reason on why it has been hard for me to come back and stay.

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Originally Posted by hejtmane

I mean the multi-classing was sweet and the crafting great and debuffs/buffs where great but the combat is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz now days. Just my two cents on another big reason on why it has been hard for me to come back and stay.

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I totally agree.
Levelling a biped is a solo mission these days since - well - there are hardly any really new players around to level up with (assuming they would want to team up).
As such you will have to level up yourself and unlike levelling a craft, it is very hard, boring, and unrewarding.

Let's not mention the gears, weapons, jewelry, spells etc. you need made. It is still possible to get all of that from other players altho that too could very well be a reason why new players quit after a while. Who wants to be dependent on others for 100 levels? And not everyone wants to level up 5 or 6 crafts just to be able to support adventuring.

But even with all the needed stuff made for you, killing mobs is hard. You need some sort of healing ability, so multi-classing is not an option but a must. I play a warrior and have a hard time killing mobs fast enough to be emerged. Waiting for the rotating skills to come off cooldown is very tedious, and why using one skill makes another skill unavailable again is beyond me. Killing mobs should be made faster (especially on low levels!) not longer. And low level mobs already have health bars that are unrealistically large, adding to the feeling of a slow, slow grind.

And then the quests. Fed ex 1-2-3. Kill X of this, Y of that, Z...rinse and repeat.

And then you finally level up and 9 out of 10 times nothing happens. No new skill or anything, just a few more health and skill points. Hardly an incentive to level up further.

I am not exaggerating when i suggest that you cut all mobs health bars and all skill cooldowns in half for the first 30 levels minimum.

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Originally Posted by Justme

I totally agree.
Levelling a biped is a solo mission these days since - well - there are hardly any really new players around to level up with (assuming they would want to team up).
As such you will have to level up yourself and unlike levelling a craft, it is very hard, boring, and unrewarding.

Let's not mention the gears, weapons, jewelry, spells etc. you need made. It is still possible to get all of that from other players altho that too could very well be a reason why new players quit after a while. Who wants to be dependent on others for 100 levels? And not everyone wants to level up 5 or 6 crafts just to be able to support adventuring.

But even with all the needed stuff made for you, killing mobs is hard. You need some sort of healing ability, so multi-classing is not an option but a must. I play a warrior and have a hard time killing mobs fast enough to be emerged. Waiting for the rotating skills to come off cooldown is very tedious, and why using one skill makes another skill unavailable again is beyond me. Killing mobs should be made faster (especially on low levels!) not longer. And low level mobs already have health bars that are unrealistically large, adding to the feeling of a slow, slow grind.

And then the quests. Fed ex 1-2-3. Kill X of this, Y of that, Z...rinse and repeat.

And then you finally level up and 9 out of 10 times nothing happens. No new skill or anything, just a few more health and skill points. Hardly an incentive to level up further.

I am not exaggerating when i suggest that you cut all mobs health bars and all skill cooldowns in half for the first 30 levels minimum.

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I so would be playing right now if the combat system for biped's where fixed but after playing games like City of Heroes, Rift and Warhammer and some others since leaving the game it is just to boring to level the classes now. The modern MMO pace is just so much faster and enjoyable. I tried three times now once on a free trial; twice I paid for a month I made it about 2 weeks and I could not stay logged on for more than 30 minutes leveling unless I was crafting because I just wanted to stab my self in the eyeballs to make the boredom go away. I been reading the forums for the last several years hoping they would address the issue but it seems like that is not even in their plans to address.

Anyways just my view from an original player 10 years later

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Originally Posted by Aaelefein

"Kickstarter/GoFundMe/IndieGoGo" - I like your proposal here and it's been suggested several times in the past. I'd want to know first before they try to do something like this - what would it cost to make these changes, new art, music, developers/programmers, etc.? Time line? What happens to the current game? But unlike your comment about being 'ambitious' - DONT be too ambitious as that has been the downfall of many of these crowd funded plans - be realistic and to the point, don't oversell or people will sniff that out in a heart beat.

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Hello,

Kickstarter would not work with Istaria and would actually be a self kick in the eye.
I have followed and follow a lot of indie games. Now I can smell which ones are going to "win" and which ones will actually get a credibility blunder after having failed to get funds.

Games that succeed follow a certain path:

1) They build up general MMO playerbase awareness. A lot. This means, throwing money to some sorts of advertisment, mouth to mouth talk, heavy and active social media presence.
Basically, if you start a crowdfunding project, you MUST be sure people actually know you even exist. Istaria has an exceptionally low score in this regard. 95% of those who would love to play a MMO featuring playable dragons, don't ever get to know Istaria exists. I have to tell them and they wonder why nobody knows about his vintage (I don't say: "old") game.

2) They show a concept video about the new features. I have followed how this process works: unless you have skilled in-house artists (Istaria is on a very small crew now), expect to spend no less than $40,000 and this just to hire a minor video production company.

3) At a certain point (sometimes, replacing posting the concept video), the company going for crowd funding HAS to post a deliverable demo of their product. In example, if Istaria wanted to gather funds for a 2.0 version, they would HAVE TO produce a pre-pre-pre alpha featuring most of the 2.0 new elements (to show off they are actually able to deliver what they promise).

There is more, but my time is running short.

Some of the above points may be skipped or altered in case you have an highly, credible, well known charismatic CEO or producer or marketing guy. As much as I have undying admiration and respect for Amon (tangibly shown by just having yearly renewed my sub(s), running since Istaria day zero), I don't think he's well known enough to make the difference just using words and promises. Crowd fund investors have learned how many of those projects never see the light of the day. These days you must deliver facts, videos, demos etc.

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Originally Posted by Valerith

So it's been about 10 years since I last played Hor... I mean, Istaria. I probably popped in here and there, but not actually played.

Coming back after 10 years, and especially after being a widely traveled MMO gamer, I have to say I'm not seeing much of a reason to stay, and I hope that these views might give some insight as to why.

- Nothing has changed. Now a quick review of update notes tells me that there have been changes, but I'm talking about major changes. Things that would warrant this game charging what it does, when so many other games offer more for free.

- Graphics are a big thing - and they haven't changed. The engine seems to have that moth-ball smell all over it. I remember coming from EverQuest to then-named Horizons, and it was amazing. Now going back, it's just disappointing. Some higher resolution textures would be a great start, and increasing the render distance for some stunning far-off views. Adding more optional particle effects would also go well, especially if you allowed us to crank up the density of those particles. None of those changes require new models, and only the textures would be new art assets. You could even make them an optional download. (Which reminds me, wasn't there an optional high-res download at one point?)

- Client: The client is still as buggy as I remember. It's crashed about 4 times on me. Granted, I'm running Windows 10, so there may be some compatibility issues, but there really shouldn't be as Windows 10 has been brilliant with playing nice elsewhere. The client is also lacking when it comes to features. Where is copy and paste functionality? It's not in the right-click menu, which is standard GUI practice. I also had my chat window completely close, and NOT remember settings. It took time and help from another player to sort that out. Time I could have spent playing the game. Elements like a mini map, quest tracker - these are standard features and expected in most MMOs. The map itself doesn't interact in an intuitive fashion as well. Scrolling in and out, for example, takes a few to get right.

- More on intuitive use: There's a lot of things that are "different", and I know that older players are used to that. The problem is that MMOs have grown quite a bit in the last 10 years and a rather standard "look and feel" has emerged. The way the mouse interacts and moves you is contrary to that, and the way "quests" are displayed takes me back to the days of EverQuest when we had to /say keywords to interact with NPCs. Hyperlinks are newer, but quest dialogues that display the information quickly and orderly are even better. What do I get for a quest? Is this a progression of sorts? What is the point of it? The lore mixes with the quest info as well, and makes it hard to sort out what you're supposed to be doing and what is optional reading.

- Server/Backbone: I see we still haven't fixed the issue where NPCs load incredibly slowly and not until you're right on top of them. I have a faster connection now after 10 years, and a much faster computer. I remember Tulga telling me that it was my system and my connection. That can't be said now, especially as I've come to learn quite a bit about networking and programming over the last 10 years. Other games, such as Wurm Online, also dynamically load and render content as you progress through the world. How can they manage to do it so well, where Istaria fails so hard?


To make this not so overly critical, I do like a few things that haven't changed much - such as the crafting. I missed the crafting here, and multi-classing (on bipeds anyway). If you guys could release a new client with upgraded (and optional) graphics, and bring your backend up to par with what's standard for today's games, I really think Istaria could have a lot of life brought back into it. It's still a unique game in many areas (Dragons!), but why would a player coming back like me pay money for just *that* feature? Perhaps when Istaria was the only real sandbox game out there, when it was the only game that really had "flying" as a feature, perhaps then it was worth it.

Right now, it needs to catch up.

So if I may make a bold suggestion? Kickstarter/GoFundMe/IndieGoGo - raise funds. Be specific and be ambitious. Drive a crowd-funded version 2.0 that will bring us old players back (you still have our e-mails!) and entice new players to get involved. You could even make a basic $20 donation give game time to an existing account. So we can donate *and* play what we remember.

Anyway, this isn't even my soap box. I think I stole it from a gnome. So I'll step down off it now, and hope this post doesn't inspire trolling or "fanboi-ism". Or get locked/deleted and I banned. I'm not really sure how things are run these days.

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Graphics mean everything ... sure sure.. *looks at crappy Everquest 1 with its HUGe confuseing controls and grapics and sounds that looked like some toddler made up*

Id say Istaria looks alot better <3 lets not forget it looks better and not every attack is the same animation XD

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Graphics mean everything ... sure sure.. *looks at crappy Everquest 1 with its HUGe confuseing controls and grapics and sounds that looked like some toddler made up*

Id say Istaria looks alot better <3 lets not forget it looks better and not every attack is the same animation XD

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Sarcastically mentioning that graphics mean everything doesn't mean that graphics are not a massive portion of the game. Without the graphics, you'd end up with just text and that'd be awful. I don't care how good a game's systems are if I have to go through those systems with a block of purple color to represent my character. The more dragonish looking that block of purple is, the more I'll enjoy the game. Graphics are the medium through which you interact with the game, having a bad, lackluster or out of date medium I've found more often then not makes for an experience that is the same quality as the medium.

You also presented your opinion as fact and then used it as evidence, which doesn't work >.> "Id say Istaria looks alot better <3 lets not forget it looks better..."

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Originally Posted by Alisto

Sarcastically mentioning that graphics mean everything doesn't mean that graphics are not a massive portion of the game. Without the graphics, you'd end up with just text and that'd be awful.

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And just what is wrong with MUDs? :P

Although a game where the graphics are in a 3d type of ASCII art... hmm....

Now it's about 11 years! Haha!

So a friend of mine said she wished she knew of a game where she could play a dragon and not be some monster, and that naturally reminded me of this place. Truth be told. I haven't been back since I made this post. My life took a completely different path, and I find myself developing on another game entirely. (No, no mentions of it here. I don't do that :))

I will say that I have more respect and understanding for what this team goes through now. The game I work on is also about 10 years old. I think it has a bit more of a population, but there's a very loud and unforgiving segment of that population.

For what it's worth, if I ever gave the devs here any grief or made them read my words in disgust - I sincerely apologize.

That said... I scanned the updates, but can anyone give me the cliff notes of what all has changed in the last year? I'm looking to find a place to hide, but a year ago - well you can see my post. The game felt empty, and not just because creatures were still taking a bit to pop in on you. This game truly needed a shot in the arm.

Anyway, thanks in advance and I hope all is well here. :)

I don't think you'd be able to find really any 'cliff notes' about much, but not too much has happened between last year and this - last year was a year dedicated to bugfixing and so there was no new content for a long while. The biggest thing was probably the Niesa's Fate content update from a few weeks ago and the update that was pushed out around Christmas.

Welcome back around these parts though and I'm glad to see you came around to a bit of a different point of view :) When you checked in last year, everything was in the middle of just bugfixes, so a lot of people were gone for lack of new things to do. The population has risen back up to normal amounts nowadays.. and by normal, still few, but more than 5 online on Order during the weekdays :P