Ability class stacking

Greetings:

Long time I've thought if I should touch this matter. I am terribly afraid of public slandering, but I decided to take on this responsibility. I decided that honesty must be for everyone.

Straight to the point. As everyone knows, bipedal farming levels has not always been very easy to do, but today its more easy and I think everyone could agree with that. But I'm not here to speak about leveling, but about using abilities in game and about conflicts. I've made some discoveries in that matter and I've noticed that some players found a way to overboost self with abilities gained through leveling their classes. As there are 28 masterable classes, it gives great maneuver on stacking abilities without conflict after changing class. What I mean, lately often has been mentioned about soloing epics in game, it's requre skill and experience on combat.

Developers highly care for making game well ballanced, and because of that lately they decided to reduce use on baubles. I respect that as half of community could use it for god playing if that still could not be changed, but not for many, this change is not significant enough, because they have many other possibilities to boost their character. Generally I have in mind bipeds, who after mastering enough classes, are provided with more abilities to use, that may be cast and stacked to boost current class they are on.

On a live server this mechanics involves visiting one npc on the isle of battle (pvp), where player can freely change his class and boost himself in any direction to any class. With time you can really become strong and fight alone with epic bosses. (even if for short duration)
I have often witnessed this situation, and I admit, I thought for quite a long time that it was a matter of skill, but it turns out that it is a matter of properly selected character classes and a hidden exploit.

In addition, mastering character classes outside of this mechanics is strongly supported by passive skills, some may turn off after changing the class, but I'm not sure which classes conflict with passive skills, but I know that the majority stays on other classes, it may depend in which order you can do everything, it's like puzzles that can be really powerful after completing all classes

I say this also because recently there have been a lot of requests to build more character classes, which would give even more development with this exploit That's why I had doubts whether we should continue to develop classes on bipeds, at least until the matter of stacking abilities and overboosting is cleared up. Several character classes actually need a change, but not in the current state of affairs.Later regulations in this respect would allow for further changes in classes, as each class would have its own system sufficient to operate in a group with much more difficult challenges.

I also have a question and request for developers to deny whether they have known about this exploit for a long time.However, I hope that the knowledge about this exploit was mostly on the side of the players and developers are mindful of the changes under this account

This matter has been plaguing me for a long time, considering how much the developers focused on dragons, which was based on constant monitoring of their effectiveness in fighting and using items, leading to a number of changes, possibly needed, but in a situation where in the class biped continuous strengthening is possible and further changes are planned, I had to raise this topic

below i add links of all biped active and passive abilities

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...eabilities.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...eabilities.png

Hello,

We are currently addressing this internally.

We were always aware of the ability to buff yourself with various abilities and then swap classes with them, but it was never truly a large problem to us because we were under the impression that the vast majority of class-locked buffs had timers of ten minutes or less. This would mean you needed to go very out of your way to get a few buffs for a short period of time that may run out by the time you get to your target.

However, it has come to our attention that we overlooked various class-locked buffs that last longer than a few minutes through simple human error. We have many hundreds of abilities and it is hard to find specific ones as not all of us often play every biped class to be aware of all of them.

We are looking into potentially dispelling class-locked augmentations from abilities on class swap to address this issue. This is not something we are approaching lightly as it requires new tech and we do not want to break any fragile systems. Note that it would only be self-only abilities - for instance, Blood Mage's Blood Shield - that would be affected. All target-able abilities and spells would remain as you could have the same effect with someone else casting them on you.

Regarding passives, these go through the Mastery system, meaning only passives obtained below level 50 that are masterable can be used in other classes provided the class that gives them is leveled enough. We do not have any plans to change these at this time.

The bauble changes had nothing to do with biped vs dragon balance and was wholly due to the concept of purchaseable power that we felt caused too large of a gap between those with lots of coin and those who did not in our community.

I hope that answers your question.

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Originally Posted by vasteel

but it turns out that it is a matter of properly selected character classes and a hidden exploit.

In addition, mastering character classes outside of this mechanics is strongly supported by passive skills, some may turn off after changing the class, but I'm not sure which classes conflict with passive skills, but I know that the majority stays on other classes

I say this also because recently there have been a lot of requests to build more character classes, which would give even more development with this exploit

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If it's that easy, do it, show us. I'll admit on some schools it's almost impossible without the support of other schools because on their own they plainly suck and are in a need of a change. Still, if it's really as easy as just selecting the right abilities from the right schools then every school should be able to do it no? Do show me.

Then "strongly supported by passive skills"... Well... Have you looked at what they do?
Let me sum some up (and that's already the majority of passives):
+1 damage delay adjusted for ice spells only
+1 damage delay adjusted for bow attacks only
+1 damage delay adjusted for unarmed attacks only
+1 damage delay adjusted for energy spells only
+1 damage delay adjusted for mind spells only
+40 health
+30 strength
+30 dexterity
+10 focus
+10 evasion
able to dodge
able to block
able to parry
parrying makes the next hit do increased damage
+1 damage delay adjusted for flame spells only
some pierce/slash/crush resist
+ 30 flame/energy/ice ward

Yes, so many *very* impactful passives. I pretty much listed all my passives that are mastered & aren't from my current school atm.
I also find it rather funny how the revamps of schools would lead to more exploiting when so far they've led to less. Looking KNOC and Monk now, as they've been recently revamped: 3 passives from Monk, of which all 3 are listed above. 2 from KNOC of which both are listed above too.

Then about the actives:
Almost everything already conflicts with the other. Even things that another person can apply to you. You say there are a lot of stackable buffs, but I'd love to see you use all those active abilities you've got there. Do tell me how many stick and don't conflict. I'll be surprised if it's more than 15, of which more than 5 that have an actual impact besides min-maxing some stats.
And it's the same if we look at the attack abilities. Use one attack and 2 hotkey bars worth of abilities go on FULL cooldown and maybe a few with a half-shared cooldown. Then on top of that, all the debuffing attacks, almost every single one of them conflicts with the other's effect. So they're almost a basic attack button that counts as an ability.

Edit: Forgot to mention half of the schools, if not more, actually use the same abilities and passives too. So there are barely any "unique" passives/actives shared. Looking at the melee/ranged schools mainly and all their abilities. Spellcaster schools have a bit more, usually a guaranteed coordinated <type> bolt and an ability or 2 like Syphon I or Cherub's Touch I (which are honestly not that useful depending on what you're playing at the moment)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarsilas

However, it has come to our attention that we overlooked various class-locked buffs that last longer than a few minutes through simple human error.

We are looking into potentially dispelling class-locked augmentations from abilities on class swap to address this issue. This is not something we are approaching lightly as it requires new tech and we do not want to break any fragile systems. Note that it would only be self-only abilities - for instance, Blood Mage's Blood Shield - that would be affected. All target-able abilities and spells would remain as you could have the same effect with someone else casting them on you.

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I agree with things like Blood Mage's Blood Shield but most of the other self-only abilities are masterable. Locking them would also lock the masterable ones, breaking masterable abilities wouldn't it?

The only other buffs that you can stick after class swapping for a "long" duration are Auras which really shouldn't be a problem at all as they're the ones that conflict with almost every buff that does something. And I'm 100% sure they conflict with all other existing auras too, tried and tested that. In fact, auras seem to be so closely watched that they even conflicted with debuffing auras from mobs at some point just so they wouldn't stack with some other aura... (Looking at Aura of Health vs Surtheim's flame resistance debuff aura)


Another edit: Yes I *am* a biped main player and I know I'm biased to a point. But honestly as a dragon player too, I still don't think it's as broken as Dragons in general, as a biped you can pursue the peak of defense OR the peak of damage or a half-way mix of both, as a dragon you can do both you tell me which is more ridiculous.
That's the main concern isn't it? Bipeds "too strong" for Dragons? Solo epics as a dragon and you get lauded a hero, solo epics as a biped in different ways and you're lauded a villain that's using exploits. Haven't seen anything but calls for nerfs on bipeds when one does it, while dragons don't get anything but praise for doing the same.
I could literally leave my dragon AFK on some epics and come back to a dead epic and a living dragon.

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Originally Posted by flamefeniks

I agree with things like Blood Mage's Blood Shield but most of the other self-only abilities are masterable. Locking them would also lock the masterable ones, breaking masterable abilities wouldn't it?

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By class-specific I meant non-masterable. Sorry for the confusion.

I can 100% agree with what flamefeniks said.

All the masterable abilities are guranteed to be lvl 50 or lower, so at best you'll be working with a t3 version of a skill fighting t6 mobs... that... doesn't come out too strong at all. In the end, the benefit of masterable skills is largely insignificant with a few exceptions: multicast II comes to mind. The reason you level multiple schools, Vasteel, is not so you can stack multiple t3 active and passive abilities, that's just sprinkles on top of the frosting on top of the cake. It's so you can get your base stats to a usable level!

Don't believe me? Here's some examples:

• If you don't level Cleric/Healer, you're stuck with the TUTORIAL level heal... if that, or you're forced to use class-locked nature-based active abilities and two nature spells to heal... Cleric or Healer is REQUIRED. You do not get enough healing in other classes besides maybe Druid to keep up.
• If you don't level Warrior: your weapon skills, health, and armor use are likely low - you will not be able to equip the best weapons or armor without these skills.
• If you don't level Mage: you cannot use flame/ice/energy resist, flame/ice/energy ward, flame/ice/energy attack to resist magic or convert your melee damage.
• If you do not level Druid: you cannot use nature spells at all - spells like nature resist/ward are very niche, but nature gives your ONLY non-life healing spell and ONLY non-life heal-over-time spell. You get TWO healing spells outside of the life skill.
• If you do not level Spiritist: you cannot use spirit resist/ward or blight resist/ward

Certain things like Auras and Cloak of Thorns you can go back to a trainer and get, swap to your preferred class, and go on your merry way. Biped players are likely aware of this... but realistically it's not worth the hassle of running back and forth every 5-30 minutes when your buffs fade or every time you die. This is such a niche issue that most people... really wouldn't bother. I CAN see a niche use on the Isle of Battle to stack buffs to prove a point and whallop someone in PvP- it's not worth doing regularly in open-world though. Additionally, if you have multiple bipeds in a group, you can easily get the same effect by communicating amongst the group who should cast what so that all group members benefit.

This is not the whole point, it's not about complete blockage, I mean more about this mechanics of standing at one npc and treating it as a power station, it's more about regulations what should be in the current class, because as a result you can turn a lot on another class, you don't treat your classes individually, I may be wrong, but the point is, for example, if you choose to play, for example, as a mage, you also load abilities from the class guardian, monk, warrior etc etc, choose one class from several already mastered classes, and you refuel this class with skills from other classes, for example, if you have some really strong ones, such as blood mage, paladin, ranger or maybe recently a monk, then from a strong class, after applying more abilities this class becomes overpowering, and remember that this is all about abilities, there are still spells, scrolls, but when it comes to abilities, if max ends in tier 3 doesn't mean it's weaker. I would suggest that this kind of stacking be prevented a bit, so that other players will provide it to you, more group play, not alone where you don't have to.

I think you're massively over-estimating what mastered abilities do. They give you level 50 abilities at best. Try making a dragon, leveling it to 100. Scribe every single t5 spell. Do not progress your ability quests past the level 50 ones: Gold Rage III will be your most powerful quested ability.

Go fight something.

Congrats, you're experiencing exactly what a biped in Mage 100, Healer 100, Druid 100, Monk 100, Spiritist 100 gets.
"What do you mean?" you say. Shouldn't a biped with 5+ classes have 5x as many things to use and be 5x more powerful?

Nope.

If you have those schools, and you're in Mage, at level 100... You can use all the class-specific spells and all your class-specific level 100 abilities, great! Yes, you can now heal (but you needed to level an unrelated class to 100 to even be able to use ANY t5 healing spells) BUT you're limited in the heals you can use because spells also are class-restricted... and you get only instant heal V mastered - if you want X, you have to be in the right class. Yes you can now punch things real good.... with level 50 monk abilities. Yes you can now use nature/spirit/blight resist and ward... but you needed TWO classes to get something that a dragon gets... with one spell, one class.

In summary, all your CURRENT class abilities are your strongest, you will never be wanting to punch things like a Monk, because it isn't your current class, so you are limited to t3 abilities... your auto-cast spells do WAY more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vasteel

you don't treat your classes individually, I may be wrong, but the point is, for example, if you choose to play, for example, as a mage, you also load abilities from the class guardian, monk, warrior etc etc, choose one class from several already mastered classes, and you refuel this class with skills from other classes.

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That's called Multiclassing, one of the game's selling points... The whole point being that you're not just locked to one class. If joining Monk only gave you monk abilities and passives, what's the point of multiclassing?

Multiclassing:
Multiclassing allows you to gain levels in multiple classes. Doing so lets you mix the abilities of those classes to realize a character concept that might not be reflected in one of the standard class options.

https://www.quotemaster.org/images/e...f64aea5556.jpg

The fact that I realize that I opened a pandora's box, I do not do it to harm, however, recently there are suggestions for improving the character classes, I decided that the mention of stacking skills from one npc must be regulated first so that there is no overboosting, the need for regulation, and this aspect is quite important, in the case of this type of changes it is possible that your passive and active skills will be able to increase, other classes will get improvements, they will be more interesting, but we need to get rid of this aspect with mass stacking.

Why does it always have to be bipeds vs. Dragons? People work very hard on their bipeds, which does require a lot more effort to level up than dragons. I know; I have both. If some abilities - the mastered ones - didn't carry over, bipeds would be a lot harder. And, honestly, the versatility of playstyle this multiclassing system allows is one of the many reasons Istaria excels to me.

The things that need balancing are that class-only, non-masterable abilities should fade on a class change. I can get behind that. But don't completely hamstring bipeds. My dragon can solo epics without all the multiclassing. It just takes planning and strategy. They're plenty strong. Don't make bipeds weaker just because you think it's unfair for dragons.

Of course, you have right, i just have hope regulations let more freely to introduce more class revamps as requested, if even this will happen because some classes need revamp and upgrades, just when you can boost your current class, with none masterable other abilities from other classes, it's may bee to much boost in stacking, some maybe will fade after class change, but some may still be stackable which may fit, also, everyone keep say about dragons, in all of it i do not meant dragons, only mechanics, it has not be topic biped vs dragon because is not the point, but of course it have its own consequences later in field.

I think the overall point is that a person shouldn't be able to go to the Isle of Battle NPC and use certain abilities like Bloodmage's Blood Shield or Storm Disciples Aura and then change class to use in the open world. There are other classes and abilities, but there aren't a whole lot.

A solution would be to set a class requirement on the ability effect (maybe?) so that it is dispelled after you change classes (does KNOC work this way?), lower the effect duration (implement if one has not been added), or have a check for certain abilites to just expire when you change classes. Master-able abilities should stay as is.

Or specifically edit this 1 NPC to adjust the cooldown timers of all the abilities for 1 minute when you change classes. I'm not sure if this is something that is possible to implement depending on how it's written.

Can you strip all buffs from a character when they leave the Isle of Battle?

Solutions 2 and 3 don't address someone that goes from town to town changing classes but I think that is less of an issue because of the amount of work it requires. Personal opinion.

Let's be civil to each other, please. Bipeds versus dragons is an extremely heated topic, but it doesn't mean you have to get heated over it.

Regarding the entire thread, we have no intentions of changing how multiclassing works. The only changes to multiclassed mastered abilities will likely come when we change up a specific school, as their abilities will change anyway. Our class revamps are focused entirely on the one school that we are revamping. By changing a singular biped school, we are not causing a massive power increase in the other schools; we are careful with what abilities are mastered and what carry over.

We are looking into a technical resolution for dispelling buffs on class change. This would only affect non-masterable, self-only buffs - so things you would not be able to get in the school you are swapping to, or have casted on you by a third party. If necessary, we can do what Coolios suggested and link the augmentations to school requirements, but that is a lot of manual digging and requires a future delta. If we can do it through a technical automatic change, then that is much preferred, but also requires time and investigation.

OK I may be reading this all wrong (and if I am I'm sure I'll be jumped uhh told) but masterable abilities are available no matter what school your in, don't see that as the problem. Unless I'm wrong and what VaSteel is talking about is say being a bloodmage and using an ability that is NOT masterable on your toon, then swapping to say paladin and using abilities again not masterable then switching to etc etc etc. Ending up with a toon with abilities from multiple schools that are again NOT masterable and should not be able to be used together like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Oops guess I didn't read enough posts, last one from Sarsalis sorta said it all.

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Originally Posted by Sarsilas

We are looking into a technical resolution for dispelling buffs on class change. This would only affect non-masterable, self-only buffs - so things you would not be able to get in the school you are swapping to, or have casted on you by a third party. If necessary, we can do what Coolios suggested and link the augmentations to school requirements, but that is a lot of manual digging and requires a future delta. If we can do it through a technical automatic change, then that is much preferred, but also requires time and investigation.

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As long as you don't stop the ability of another to cast a buff on you, as the buff / spell was intended to be used in the first place