*off topic*
Amon, I haven`t found too many folks who are excited or happy with daily quests.
none-to be honest.
Maybe this is something for "talk to the team"?
I surely can be wrong- my friends are not a representative number I guesss
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*off topic*
Amon, I haven`t found too many folks who are excited or happy with daily quests.
none-to be honest.
Maybe this is something for "talk to the team"?
I surely can be wrong- my friends are not a representative number I guesss
Must be the restriction in the number of times you can do something per day? Because there is very little difference in a quest that you can do once per day and what many players do now, grinding repeatedly on something each day.
The idea behind a Daily Quest is simply that you can accomplish some goal once per day in order to earn a reward. We're looking into using them to offer a way to acquire epic as well as older items. I can think of no other way that allows us to control the cost and availability of these items.
Short version: Daily quests make it seem like Istaria is turning into one of those 'other games', and I started (and kept!) playing because it wasn't those other games.
Some background info....I played world of warcraft for around four years before coming to Istaria. In that time, I did maybe half of one daily quest. Four years. Half of a daily quest. There is a terrible feeling about daily quests, for me anyway. Currently, grinding out stuff is ok because I can afk and do homework, yet nothing is really lost if I don't do anything in Istaria that day. Imo, daily quests turn the game into a chore - gotta do this or that thing otherwise that daily is gone until the next day.
I like logging in and wondering "What shall I do today....(or not do >_> <_<)". I don't like logging in and finding the first thing I realize is, "Gotta do this quest because I want <x> item....again..."
Yes, daily quests are an easy way to make it take time to get something, but they aren't the end all be all. I think a daily quest implemented would be interesting, but quickly become far worse than the current grind. Yes, I really, -really- dislike daily quests. However, it is more the concept behind daily quests than the the daily part I have a problem with, but indirectly it's the daily part because 'daily' makes it all that it is.
There are systems in place to acquire things already, and they just have a -few- problems, but not enough that an overhaul to the extent implementing daily quests would be is.
In short - tokens are nice. Being able to acquire epic and old items with tokens is nice. Having a time-limit-or-else on a quest is not nice. A lot of ways have been suggested already. Add items back into the bosses no one kills anymore , or only kills for a quest (Which issss...Daknor, Abomination of Pain, and that's where my memory ends, but that's two \o/!). Imo, the Son of Gigaroth could stand the blow of having maybe one more thing on his loot table, as could the other bosses. Valkor has pain in the *ahem* guards that could drop some tokens. The main problem with the current system is the drop chances (which has been discussed elsewhere! So will only say, again) that I'm behind the 'Get <x> quest to kill <x> boss, turn in to questgiver for tokens. You can do the quest as many times as you want, but you have to kill the epic mob. /end babbling, hopes that didn't end up too off topic
Thanks for reading >.> Below, just some specific answers, as I know I'm not the clearest writer.
More...Quote:
Must be the restriction in the number of times you can do something per day?
than anything else, though I suppose indirectly it -is- the number of times.Quote:
The idea behind a Daily quest
signed, Alisto.
Alice said most of it :P
On the subject of bosses specificially - simple repeating quests would be more effective. I don't like the idea of only getting reward for one boss fight per day. Because, i find that when bosses are hunted, bosses are hunted. There's usually a day when most people on order fight a x amount of bosses x amount of times. Dailies mean once per day. And, kind of says "Ohh go fight every day" and that gets boring. Like anything would when doing it daily. And means people miss out. Like. People are gonna get their daily, go do the quest with other people with their dailies. Then if you miss that moment, it means you could not get the daily because you migth have missed the oppertunity to get it, and get further from getting an epic item than with the original system.
DON'T do it for epic items. Please.
Legacy items i can understand as well as tech kits now. In these cases i think it's okay. I mean - you want a legacy item. Be as loyal as the people who have legacy items form the time when they were around and play.
I wonder if there isn't a middle ground? Is it possible to have a "quest counter" that starts at 7, drops by 1 for each quest you complete, and resets with maintenance each week? That allows devs to limit gains while allowing for groups to do that weekend "let's go do some HUNTING!"
Just my 2 cp...
Yildar
I can relate to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisto
One of the things I hated about WOW and Rift was the daily quests you had to do to get /craft tokens/rep/whatever else...
It really gets a chore mentality to it. You feel like OMG I gotta login and do the daily quest, and at some point you just get sick of it. It's like raiding. Have to be on at certain time or OMG the guild is pissed, didn't get to kill raidbossX,-50 DKP!
What is it the dev's are trying to accomplish with the daily quests? Is this back to the tokens for purchasing all the weapon pieces?
I think I had suggested something along the lines of "let the boss drop say 10 to 30 tokens per kill", then players can divide them up. No one has to go and say " man 3 months I have never won a random for loot off an epic boss", we just evenly divide them. We can random for the 1 leftover token, etc. but everyone still gets a very even reward.
If the goal is to limit the amount a player gets. So that group 1, which only has 2 players, both dualboxing, don't get all 30 tokens for themselves, instead the npc hands out 1 per kill, to make it a more even and fair distribution of tokens... well, I would say make it not "daily" quest, but maybe give it a few hour cooldown on the quest. It would almost be the same thing.
But, I doubt the above would accomplish what the dev's are (I think) trying to accomplish. Where group 1 is 4 toons, 2 players dualboxing, group 2 is 10 individual players, and group 1 gets more per kill if the boss directly drops the tokens. All that will happen with the quest being the sole provider of the tokens, is that group 1 will get 6 more alts in their group, just to get the quest kill credit, and still wind up with same number of tokens if the boss had simply dropped them directly...
Do it both ways. Have the boss directly drop some tokens we can evenly divide, so adjust drop count up, with 10 being minimum so that a full group of 10 everyone would get one, and then make a separate timed quest (can take it say once every 6 hours) which grants 1 additional token if the boss is killed. Upon turn-in, quest 6 hour cool-down timer starts, and player cannot re-do it for 6 hours. And its just a small extra bonus, not the primary way to acquire these tokens.
Then, on the vendor adjust the prices up x10, since 10 tokens are dropping instead of 1. Just calculate it out so that 1 kill per day will reward the typical player with item x/desired time dev's think it should take to earn it. So if a BHM should take 6 months to acquire (assuming that is an item the vendor will sell), assuming player kills the epics once a day and gets an average of 6 tokens total per day, price it at 1100 tokens. Of course you would have to factor in what bosses drop tokens, and at what quantity. Gruk, Daknor should not drop as many as fafnir, who shouldn't drop as many as the big 3.
Another way, since I am not a fan of the lowbie bosses being able to be farmed for epic rewards such as Reklar's Sash of Fury, would be to use the daily or timed quest, only in regards to these easy bosses. And only reward 1 token per kill, or even 1 token once all three were killed. And keep the BHM at 1100 tokens. Player could skip the daily gruk kill and not feel guilty about it, or feel as pressured to kill them in their quest to obtain toy-prize X. Leave the epics as dropping enough so that they can be divided up.
feels like I'm rambling hope that makes some sense.
As you said, Guaran, this is not just in consideration for the Epics, but also for any quest earned items (tech kits, etc) from the lower tiers.
The purpose of a Daily is to limit the amount of currency of whatever form that can be earned during a specific period of time. This is meant to cap hardcore players and to stretch the experience. Personally I've never understood people's belief that if they don't do a daily they "lose" something. It would only be lost if there was a finite limit on the number of times you could ever do them. There is not.
I do them when I am on in games that have them, but I don't worry about them otherwise. If I don't feel like doing them, I don't feel like I've lost anything since I wasn't interested in doing them. Its not a race to win, its a journey.
I appreciate your feedback on this, however. I just don't think we've found a mechanism that satisfies everyone's needs yet. Sadly I'm not sure we will as this is a very complicated issue with multiple demands.
I might be the only one, but feeling that the current topic is very, very broad and has, since discussions started, gotten sort of muddled.(since you mention quest earned items such as tech kits). There's Daily quests, which involves tech kits and tokens, which involves epic mobs, which involves epic items, which involves crafting and vendors for tokens, which involves what to put on the vendors....*Would keep going in circles, but meh*Quote:
I appreciate your feedback on this, however. I just don't think we've found a mechanism that satisfies everyone's needs yet. Sadly I'm not sure we will as this is a very complicated issue with multiple demands.
So, clarification on the 'problem' would be much appreciated. I feel that "we've" jumped straight from the problem into tokens and daily quests, which is skipping a whole lot (or I might've missed a thread >_>)
Also, just a thought, spawn time adjustment? I don't think the population is such that allowing a wider range of spawn times would be a problem - ex: Sog can spawn up to 3 hours from now, or 1 hour, with whatever the time happens to be being very random (I've found that some epics have a sort of 'average respawn time' that they stick somewhat close to).Quote:
control the cost and availability of these items.
If I don't do a daily quest one day, I cannot go back in time and do it. It's gone. I'll admit it's more of a 'feeling' than reality, but if I went by reality all the time I'd never level a biped's crafting school again. It's true that an infinite number of chances to go gather a group for a Reklar kill are passing me by right now that I'll never get back, but that's far too deep to consider appropriate reasoning for a video game. Eventually, it begins to feel like the game via the daily quest is controlling (trying to) control my gameplay.Quote:
Personally I've never understood people's belief that if they don't do a daily they "lose" something. It would only be lost if there was a finite limit on the number of times you could ever do them. There is not.
It certainly seems we have (at least) two minds about this. Pardon my ignorance, but could someone please explain to me how they work, and what it is about the “Daily Quests” that you don’t like?
From my perspective, the only concerns I had were regarding the timer itself. Would you have to complete the quest within 24 hours of picking it up? Does the 24 hour re-play counter start from when you finish the quest? Would we have to conform to a universal time zone?
So far, it seems people don’t like the idea because they feel somehow forced to do these quests, and are in some way disadvantaged if they don’t do the Daily quests every day? I can’t see how that’s possible to be honest, unless the reward changes every day, but I doubt we even have that kind of tech.
How are you being disadvantaged if you choose not to do the quest? It’s there for you the very next time you log in, if you want to do them. If you were doing these quests to supplement your Epic mob hunting, then missing a Daily quest would be the same as simply missing out on an Epic hunt (and I know I miss plenty of these). If you were doing them in the hopes of buying other once-forgotten (BHM) or single-use items (quest tech kits), then would it simply not take an extra day to make up for one day you’d missed?
Am I missing the point? Is the problem related to the reward and not the quest itself? Are we all focusing on the possible implications it may have regarding Epic hunting? For example, if the main reward for Epic hunting were to come from the quests rather than the hunt, then it could decrease epic hunts significantly? E.g. Why help with another hunt if you've already completed one that day and have the daily reward?
I clearly don't have a grasp of the situation, so if someone could inform me, enlighten me, that'd be SUPER :)
I think it's important that folks not knee-jerk with the "wow has this so I don't want it" bandwagon thought.
Many quests in Istaria already are repeatable - the devs options are as such for these questions: Make them tedious so that the time invested doesn't return a disproportioned reward. Make them not-repeatable. Make the reward small enough such that the player's speed of repetition doesn't give an inflated reward.
A daily quest, while not in any way novel, simply pushes the limited factor from time-invested to a hard-set once-per-day style. It means devs can make quests that don't take TOO long but can also give a reasonably generous reward - you can't farm it endlessly because it'd be 'efficient' to do so, but you also don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for every shred of reward because the dev has to be stingy to avoid rapid repetition.
Daily quests, on the surface, aren't exciting. Am I *excited* by them? Not really. Is it a useful tool for devs to have so that they can add a time-limiting factor instead of having to rely on making repeatable quests tedious and grindy, rather than just limiting them arbitrarily with time? I think so. It's really just a way for the devs to more variably be able to balance different aspects of time invested, risk, and reward without having to err so much on the side of caution.
The problem, too, is people are making a lot of assumptions - i.e., assuming that if you miss a single day you'll somehow be way behind or at some significant disadvantage of unable to get some particular reward; I highly doubt that's the devs' goal. It's just a way to add something which you can do each day for some reasonably decent reward; if the reward is enough to convince you to do the daily, then great, if not, then nothing is lost.
If the problem is that you feel somehow *compelled* to do it or that missing it causes some odd nagging feeling of "failure" then that isn't a problem the devs can address, it's a social problem with the way some people view and address games at times.
I think there's a little too much reading into a very simple mechanic that gives the devs another tool in their belt and nothing more than that.
Think of it this way - at present, you have quests that are repeatable or not. If they are repeatable, the dev has to be sure that time + risk = appropriate reward. If the time or risk is too low, or the reward too high, the repeatable will be targetted as a fast-track easy mode, so they would be encouraged to keep the reward to the lower end of the spectrum to avoid this.
When you can add a hard limit on this, i.e. once per day, suddenly even if the reward is a bit over the top for the time and risk it doesn't matter near as much; there's flexibility now.
Seems I`m always a bit too late for my 2c-
but GUARAN (!) and ALISTO bring it to the point-
so I can make it short: I dislike the idea- no matter what you`ve explained, Amon. And pls- take you a lot of time, and make it a
a very detailled planned thing. Otherwise it does more damage than good.
For me its more the aspect of "I already completed that hunt today so i am not going to do it again just for the Heck of it." The reality of this is as we are all aware this is an MMO and people in MMO's can be rather selfish at times. A prime example is look at the XP reward we had... how many epic hunts did people do during that time period because "sorry too busy grinding"? until then they were alot more often. (not sure if they have picked up again since)
I am also against the idea of weekly counters because again counter runs out people lose interest.
But i agree there needs to be a way to regain lost techs that are wasted due to bad decision making. personally My answer to this is make the quest an utter pain in the Backside.. long winded time consuming but repeatable.... if your worried about "too many in the game" is it possible to have the quest check for a "teched spell" in your spell book for example? and if you have it it tells you to "jump of a pier"
Very well explained, Losian. Better than I have, for sure.
Quote:
I might be the only one, but feeling that the current topic is very, very broad and has, since discussions started, gotten sort of muddled.(since you mention quest earned items such as tech kits). There's Daily quests, which involves tech kits and tokens, which involves epic mobs, which involves epic items, which involves crafting and vendors for tokens, which involves what to put on the vendors....*Would keep going in circles, but meh*
So, clarification on the 'problem' would be much appreciated. I feel that "we've" jumped straight from the problem into tokens and daily quests, which is skipping a whole lot (or I might've missed a thread >_>)
You are correct, the problem has become muddled. The problem that has brought about this discussion is this: There are many items in the game that are obtained via quest or are very difficult to obtain or even can no longer be obtained. We would like to provide a more deterministic way for players to obtain them. That is, a way that players can work towards a goal that they are sure they will achieve at some point.
Daily Quests and the use of Tokens to buy items from Vendors have been put forward as one good way of handling this issue.
Other solutions include selling them for coin (but I cannot even imagine how expensive they would have to be to compensate and make it so that all items could not be purchased in a week) or some form of repeatable quest which would require significant content work and planning for each item (something we would rather not do).
Please leave epic loot out of it - or, rather, have epic loot still drop as normal, and have dailies on the mob that earn tokens to get some epic loot otherwise. (didn't someone else suggest this?) Mostly because there are some bits of epic loot that people aren't even sure are on the loot tables they drop so rarely. Even the most common hunters still strive for various peices. And would serve those with little luck too - and should still mean players keep their will to hunt (there's a chance that-thing will drop, you don't -need- the daily). Just make sure it takes a long time to get a peice so greedy players don't get too big of an advantage (you know who you are. you with the at least 3 of everything except for the super rares and still a new player compared to some vets..:P)Quote:
Originally Posted by AmonGwareth
On legacy items and tech kits, i don't see it too bad of an idea. Certainly better than some repeatable grindy quest, or one big line for each thats impossible to complete. (both take more work anyway i believe) - it's a nice middle between both.
Although i still have a few issues against "It'll become a quest you want to do and have to log for" (because there are a lot of people who like to work quickly, and will put the effort in to do this every day. Only, after a while, those might need to visit a pit of snakes and do the daily just to have some sort of motivation and some sort of fun still in the quest.) The thing about dailies is - they kinda
inadvertently force the player to do them. As Alisto said - it's the fact you've missed that oppertunity and can't go back and get it. Even if it still stands the next day i wouldn't want to be one step behind because the daily got so much of a chore i missed it.
But keeping that aside, for legacy items certainly, i don't think it's a bad idea. Even if your brain rotted out after doing the dailies, you'd be getting a wonderful reward that i think with most legacy items, is definitely worth the effort of doing everyday to eventually get one. Tech kit replacements too. They're a thing that would work well with dailies. In most cases (most anyway) you put the tech on knowing that in the future, somehting more ideal could come out. But, knowing a second can be earnt it kinda takes the pressure away. You can actually test and spend kits instea dof saving them and hoping they work when that-ideal-item comes out, because even if it doesn't work, there's stil a way to get another.
I've read through the thread thus far, and like Amon want to thank everyone for their thoughts.
I'm hoping, though, that someone can clear up the "If I don't log in and do these quests daily, I'm missing something" mentality. Do you feel that way if you don't log in each day and build at least x% of your plot? Or gain x% of a level (or multiple levels)? Or gain so much coin? Or whatever your goal is. I personally do not, but perhaps that is where the thought comes from?
The timer is individualized to your character. So if you don't log in on a particular day, you don't log in, it isn't that you are missing anything.. at least, nothing more than you missed because you didn't log in and play that day. If your goal is to maximize your gain (whatever that gain is), then yes, you need to log in daily and work toward that goal.
We are trying to give more tools and options and to appeal to a broader audience. Adding Daily Quests, even if that does make us "more like other games" does just that. It appeals to those who come to a game expecting repeatable, daily quests that help with leveling, with some sort of gain for their character. Not sure I'm understanding how anyone is experiences some sort of loss if daily quests are not their thing and they choose not to do them.
I am only talking for the legacy items here, but why not have quests that are repeatable but only give a legacy item the first say 3 or four times you do them?
Another idea would be a vendor where we can trade in epic items, or we can sell back a teched piece and receive the epic tech back as payment. The only thing with this is for this to work we would need a way to remove spells from our spell book to gain back a couple of the techs like mental bane...
I don't actually understand this mindset either. If you made the daily's linked, so that you had to do Daily A on day one to unlock Daily B. then yes I could understand the complaints but otherwise it leaves me scratching my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velea
Personally I would rather dailies than these darn trophies clogging my vault and inventory.
Maybe we are jumping to conclusions a little bit about these daily quests... and perhaps it wouldn't have the same grindy feel I always hated about rep grinding in other games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Losian
And I agree that having a way to get back say my crest of the blackhammer clan tech that got put on a regular crafted shield (and since then lost or pawned or something) would be nice. Using a daily quest that took say a week to gather the tokens needed to retrieve another of these techs would be fine. I would only need a finite number of these techs. As long as I wasn't grinding out some daily quest for months to get it, I think the quest/token method would be ok. (For blackhammer clan crest, make a small quest to kill 10 technomancers. They are difficult to kill, some people might not even get 10 killed in a day).
I think where it could get a bit more muddled, is when it becomes do the same thing for 6 months... then it turns into a chore.
So, assuming the tech allows it to be done this way: The daily "Kill epic boss for tokens" quest, can actually be a random, different quest each day. So we login, go talk to npc. Today the quest is "Kill Reklar to earn 3 tokens!", after turning the quest back in, we get a 20 hour cooldown timer. Tomorrow, the npc might be asking for "Kill Gruk, Fafnir, and Daknor to earn 3 tokens". Somedays it might simply be "Kill Gruk to earn 1 token" and that's it.
Keep mixing it up. The repetitiveness wouldn't be so bad. Even have days where the npc says "No need to kill anything today, the withered aegis' power is in wane..." and it counts as a daily quest, but no kill needed and no token can be earned that day. And other, rare times, he does something similiar but rewards 1 token for the players diligence, and nothing needed to be killed to get it.
This I think would be ok,
Heh, I like this idea right up until the moment where i get "the withered aegis is waning no need to kill anything today" for the 5th or 6th time in a row :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Guaran
I am finding the whole issue of objections to this rather odd considering daily quests to get epic items and obsolete items was discussed and generally supported in this thread.
I don't mind daily quests, and I don't take an issue with them at all. They were meant to be implemented so we can obtain items that can't currently be obtained such as the lost dragon techs, and items that are a pain in the rear to get hold of such as Reklar's Tail Scale Piece 3 and piece 4 of the sash, to name but a couple in that long standing gripe of epic loot. These as well as obtaining lesser versions of spell techs (e.g Mental Bane), which many have mistakenly misused or wish they would have saved to put on other revamped/new items later.
The one concern I have with all of the objections to daily quests, is that the feedback I have read so far just does not come across to me as constructive in a way that I can find any sway with the objections presented. I can see that everyone agrees that we want the missing dragon techs back, ways to get those almost near impossible to get epic loot pieces, and ways to get copies or a second chance at these one-time quest items, but no one so far has offered a way to do just that other than the daily quest system or what has already been discussed in previous threads for these items and issues. I can see the argument against dailies and its reasons, but I don't see a better alternative presented as an option for us to get what we have been crying out to have for over five years now. Thus, I can not have or agree with an objection to the idea of daily quests for these items.
The answer to me is straight forward from that stand point. If you don't want to do dailies, then don't do them and it really is that simple. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it shouldn't be offered to others or taken away from other players as an option.
Yes, the implementation might mean a daily quest system makes us 'like other games' but last I checked those other games have a better retainment of player base, which is an issue for this game. As much as it destroys my moral sensibilities, one of the things about successful mmos is that they do have a slightly addictive quality through their quest reward systems and this often involves time-restricted or daily quests. However, if I run into the case where I feel that I must or have to do a daily/weekly/monthly/time-restricted quest, then I will be doing a self-check on whether or not the issue is with me and not the reward/quest systems of the game.