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Thread: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by velveeta View Post
    ouch!!! not playing cause you don't have lore?? that's a bit....ummm, extreme, yeah?
    That's actually not an uncommon reaction for hard-core RPers. I know I have quit table-top games because the full extent of the lore given to build our characters within was what the GM could dredge up from the lap dancers at the local strip bar.

    So, no, it's not really that extreme. If one values RolePlay and good, detailed character conception, to have all that work ripped out from under you years after the fact kinda lets the air out of your tires. People continue to RP with you, but it's all.. wrong.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Lore for me is more important than pretty graphics, probably because I come from an old-school mud/muck/mush and BBS environment where all of our graphics were done in our heads through prose.

    Not having access to ‘cannon’ lore does pose a problem though; for example, a friend once created a Space Marines chapter for Warhammer 40k from a rarely mentioned and non-documented chapter… He created their color scheme, combat specializations, weapons types, tactics, and back-story and got a lot of compliments during table top games… Then, after a year of playing, Games Workshop released a chapter book on them – instantly everything he had done was wrong and necessitated starting over from scratch.

    He hasn’t played 40k since.

    As far as Horizons is concerned there isn’t as much physical work involved, but as a character becomes ‘known’ to the general populace certain elements of that character’s back-story become part and parcel of that character’s physicality in people’s minds. Suddenly invalidating parts of that back-story can invalidate that entire character in the minds of the players familiar with it.

    So, with that in mind folks with this sort of bent to their character creation process should probably stick to elements of Horizons’ lore that are published and sanctioned by whoever owns Horizons at the time. The only time this poses a problem is if you, like any good role-player, begin to embellish on the little bits and pieces you’re focusing on for your back-story… If you do this, try to keep the embellishment to things that can be mutable in your character’s history and that won’t cause you to require huge retcons to repair if things change.

    Just my 2c on the subject and to resurrect an interesting thread.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Off topic...
    What Chapter was it, out of curiosity? I have an involved backstory for my Tau force, and I keep waiting for GW to drop some fluff that pretty much does away with it too...

    Back on topic...
    I myself felt the pain of lore changing and invalidating all of my RP. For a very long time, my character worshipped Kass, which was the name of the Sslik diety. She didn't have a portfolio, so I worked out one of honor, vengeance and nature, and roleplayed myself as a Paladin of those virtues. Then all of a sudden, Kass became Kasha and became a diety of...Rain? So I've had to adjust my RP, and must say I liked the old one better. But I can adapt, and just hope that more concrete stuff comes along soon.
    Ssilmath Torshak, Paladin of the Lost, Shaman of the Damned, Master Armorsmith

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  4. #24

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssilmath
    Off topic...
    What Chapter was it, out of curiosity? I have an involved backstory for my Tau force, and I keep waiting for GW to drop some fluff that pretty much does away with it too...
    I believe it was the Black Templars.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssilmath View Post
    Back on topic...
    I myself felt the pain of lore changing and invalidating all of my RP. For a very long time, my character worshipped Kass, which was the name of the Sslik diety. She didn't have a portfolio, so I worked out one of honor, vengeance and nature, and roleplayed myself as a Paladin of those virtues. Then all of a sudden, Kass became Kasha and became a diety of...Rain? So I've had to adjust my RP, and must say I liked the old one better. But I can adapt, and just hope that more concrete stuff comes along soon.
    While we're trying to avoid this and keep this from happening, it does.. While rather unintentional, some things can't be avoided.

    The team is working on the lore. Things are being cleaned up, and new lore is being added. We have been going over the deities, so we can add in more stuff, and give Istaria a more believable and interesting history. In essence, we're expanding so much on the lore, that we've practically written books on all of it.

    The problem is, this wasn't done at the very beginning when the game was released. The lore that the game did have was sketchy at best, then was tossed out the window before AE fell through. The world has been in existence now for 4 years, and that's four long years without any kind of real story.. a story that has credence and is both alluring and involving. Natrually, other players out there have created and added their own lore, and with this comes the risk of having everything one believes in stomped into oblivion. What happens is totally unintentional, but as we define the lore and write it all out, and pass it on to the players, conflicts between what is canon and what is not is surely going to happen. I wish that things were different, but there are things we have to do in order for us to make Horizons better.

    -Menkure

  6. #26

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    I understand fully Menkure, and while it was frustrating, I understood why it happened. I do wonder though, how much player input is considered? I've got a story about the Sslik migration to Lesser Aradoth about half done, but is there any reason to keep working on it? Is there any reason to keep working on the Sslik language I've been developing? I stopped working on both precisely because I figured that lore would be written in that would put all of that to waste. Is that the case, or should the players continue to work on stuff like that?
    Ssilmath Torshak, Paladin of the Lost, Shaman of the Damned, Master Armorsmith

    My other "crack would be cheaper" hobby
    http://ssilmath.deviantart.com/

  7. #27

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Why stop on the lang? Not like our dragon tounge is anything close to lore nor will it ever be used in game beyond the players. Nor will you ever see a lang created and used in game as lore I think.



  8. #28

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Menkure View Post
    In essence, we're expanding so much on the lore, that we've practically written books on all of it.
    Yay!

    I'd like to pre-order the book(s)... Where do I enter the credit card number?

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Menkure View Post
    While we're trying to avoid this and keep this from happening, it does.. While rather unintentional, some things can't be avoided.

    The team is working on the lore. Things are being cleaned up, and new lore is being added. We have been going over the deities, so we can add in more stuff, and give Istaria a more believable and interesting history. In essence, we're expanding so much on the lore, that we've practically written books on all of it.

    The problem is, this wasn't done at the very beginning when the game was released. The lore that the game did have was sketchy at best, then was tossed out the window before AE fell through. The world has been in existence now for 4 years, and that's four long years without any kind of real story.. a story that has credence and is both alluring and involving. Natrually, other players out there have created and added their own lore, and with this comes the risk of having everything one believes in stomped into oblivion. What happens is totally unintentional, but as we define the lore and write it all out, and pass it on to the players, conflicts between what is canon and what is not is surely going to happen. I wish that things were different, but there are things we have to do in order for us to make Horizons better.
    The problem is that you don't HAVE to invalidate all the player lore, you could possibly INCORPORATE it. Personally, I have a great fear that Dragon lore is going to get boofed so badly that the only thing I will be able to do is just completely ignore it, which I don't want to do. Some of the lore surrounding the ARoP was rather shoddy and mechanical, IMO, and I really am gunshy of anyone touching it without making at least some effort to involve players who play the race.

    I think that can be said of any race in the game, though, even humans. If you all are going to go back to the proverbial smoke-filled room and hash out a new lore "bible", then expect that a lot of folks are going to be a lot more put off by the effort.

    Like you said, the game is more than 4 years old now with the same phantom skeletal lore it has had since before beta. Lots of players have put in a lot of effort to fill in the void. At the very least, player input should be considered.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Hmm... I look at it as a series of books.

    Right now my little hatchling, Shalkyn, is based on the writings in book 1, but the author has the right to change everything in book 2 which isn't out yet.

    I hate to use powerword 'potter' here, but something similar to this would happen every time a new book came out in that fanfic folks would get all pear-shaped over something that didn't happen according to thier precognition. Even the much despised 'World of Warcraft' had folks up in arms when they introduced the Draenei and had to retcon pretty much the entire back-story of the universe to fit them in... And your average WoW player isn't exactly a great follower of canon...

    So it does happen and people do get upset... But I think we need to look forward and see how much nailing down the World of Istaria will help new roleplayers find their footing in the world.

    As for incorprating the current player content... I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there are some legal ramifications to that. For example, if they were to incorporate, say, some little ditty I write up for the existance of something-or-other and then Horizons suddenly takes off and has millions of players, I could possibly sue for compenstation on my IP that they incorporated... Not that I, you, or anyone else here would do such a thing, but companies are put together to make money and even the potential of being sued is counter to that.

    So the chances of incorporating existing player-created content is slim unless some sort of air-tight IP release form is made available to the player base. For example, there is an MMO out there that uses player-created content - Pirates of the Burning Sea - and they have something to the effect of:

    "All files submitted to the Pirates of the Burning Sea user content creation system become property of Flying Lab Software. By clicking the submit button, you agree to grant Flying Lab Software sole ownership of, and copyright to, any file submitted."

    So it is possible to do, just delicate in it's execution.
    Last edited by Raeshlavik; December 28th, 2007 at 11:46 PM.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeshlavik View Post
    I hate to use powerword 'potter' here, but something similar to this would happen every time a new book came out in that fanfic folks would get all pear-shaped over something that didn't happen according to thier precognition. Even the much despised 'World of Warcraft' had folks up in arms when they introduced the Draenei and had to retcon pretty much the entire back-story of the universe to fit them in... And your average WoW player isn't exactly a great follower of canon...
    Except that there is a HUGE difference. There never WAS a FIRST "book" to Horizons. It's a bunch of scribblings on the back of a Mesa Waffle House napkin.

    As for incorprating the current player content... I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there are some legal ramifications to that. For example, if they were to incorporate, say, some little ditty I write up for the existance of something-or-other and then Horizons suddenly takes off and has millions of players, I could possibly sue for compenstation on my IP that they incorporated... Not that I, you, or anyone else here would do such a thing, but companies are put together to make money and even the potential of being sued is counter to that.
    Umm. No one ever said anything about STEALING current player content. That's where the "talking with the players" part comes in, to get people to FREELY SUBMIT their works for inclusion in lore.

    It's not that complicated, either. They simply write up a little piece of paper and sign their name to it, or submit the content through a system where they agree that any content submitted is freely licensed to the game for use in the game (kinda like the way it works for wikis).
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssilmath View Post
    I understand fully Menkure, and while it was frustrating, I understood why it happened. I do wonder though, how much player input is considered? I've got a story about the Sslik migration to Lesser Aradoth about half done, but is there any reason to keep working on it? Is there any reason to keep working on the Sslik language I've been developing? I stopped working on both precisely because I figured that lore would be written in that would put all of that to waste. Is that the case, or should the players continue to work on stuff like that?

    I'm currently writing up a significant amount of backstory, history and lore for the Humans due to the T2 revamp. Naturally, no single race existed within a vacuum (though that depends on your theories regarding The Void, and what the Dryads faced while they were there), the Human history is intertwined with the Dragons and even moreso with the Sslik.

    I've got no problem working with people and incorporating what they have into what I write, as long as it I feel it can fit and work well within the general direction of where the Lore is going, and that it doesn't invalidate or contradict anything that's already been established.

    The problem is that you don't HAVE to invalidate all the player lore, you could possibly INCORPORATE it.
    For the most part, this is true. Incorporating player-created lore isn't an issue in principle. I don't mean to sound like I'm being nitpicky here, so I apologize if it can be construed that way. It's not my intention. I merely wanted to clarify a bit regarding this topic. Incorporating player-written lore is fine, but inevitably, some player-written lore will be different from some other player-written lore, and incongruities will arise. Generally, it wouldn't be wise to adopt those sorts of sticking points into canon. But again, in general, as long as it fits, there's no reason why it can't be incorporated.


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  13. #33

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssilmath View Post
    I do wonder though, how much player input is considered? I've got a story about the Sslik migration to Lesser Aradoth about half done, but is there any reason to keep working on it? Is there any reason to keep working on the Sslik language I've been developing?
    Personally, I love seeing other players create good material that extends beyond themselves and enhances the world as a whole. Klava is a great example of this sort of thing. However, personal RP and character stories in general tend to be very focused, and as such I think it's harder to find broadly usable content in them.

    Ssilmath: I wanted to respond to you specifically since I wrote the vast majority of the new Sslik material you're referring to. Honestly, I like your stories a lot and I'd love to see you continue them. You're not the only person who expressed concerns about their personal history being invalidatied by new lore. I took those concerns to heart, and made an effort to make the lore in my quests as inclusive as possible.

    That's why Kaasha is described as "the Maker of the Sslik", not 'the god of rain' or what have you. What does that mean? In your case, that gives you room for Kaasha to embody the Sslik virtues of honorable behavior, rightous vengeance against the enemies of the Sslik people, and living in harmony with nature. Or not, if you prefer.

    As far as your Sslik language goes, my personal and unofficial advice would be to put together a formal design proposal, with examples of vocabulary, grammar, and syntax, and submit it to the design team for evaluation.

    If one values RolePlay and good, detailed character conception, to have all that work ripped out from under you years after the fact kinda lets the air out of your tires. People continue to RP with you, but it's all.. wrong.
    Couldn't agree more, Pharcellus. However, sometimes things need to be changed in order to make a better end result. The Sslik lore mentioned above is an example. There was so little lore in-game that players had almost nothing to go on. A decision was made to provide more lore and to make sure that lore enhanced the game for sslik players. Establishing some measure of canon information risks alienating vets like Ssilmath, but it gives the new players something to work with. It's not something done willy-nilly, but with a great deal of thought and care for the consequences.

    I'll give you another example of an upcoming change: Brysmendrik, the dragon out in the middle of nowhere north of Dralk, started out life as a Lunus. He had some dialog in one event and passed out the dragon techs for a very short week way back when. Since then, he's been taking up space for the most part.

    As a general rule, introducing new NPCs for quests is discouraged, both because they take up system resources and because there are a lot of under-utilized NPCs out there. I needed an NPC for a quest, and Brysmendrik fit the bill perfectly.

    Problem is, the NPC I need has to be a Helian.

    Solution? Use Brysmendrik anyway. The only explanation I can offer is to shake my head sadly and say "He has some issues".

    Given the choice between breaking the established lore for Brysmendrik in order to give him purpose and a long-term, meaningful part in people's game play, and conforming to lore by creating a new NPC and thus adding to the server load, lore loses.

    It's never an easy decision, though, and not something anyone takes lightly.
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawdge View Post
    For the most part, this is true. Incorporating player-created lore isn't an issue in principle. I don't mean to sound like I'm being nitpicky here, so I apologize if it can be construed that way. It's not my intention. I merely wanted to clarify a bit regarding this topic. Incorporating player-written lore is fine, but inevitably, some player-written lore will be different from some other player-written lore, and incongruities will arise. Generally, it wouldn't be wise to adopt those sorts of sticking points into canon. But again, in general, as long as it fits, there's no reason why it can't be incorporated.
    Let me clarify my statement, in light of the context of the rest of my post:

    "The problem is that you don't HAVE to invalidate ALL the player lore, you could possibly INCORPORATE *SOME* of it."

    Couldn't agree more, Pharcellus. However, sometimes things need to be changed in order to make a better end result. The Sslik lore mentioned above is an example. There was so little lore in-game that players had almost nothing to go on. A decision was made to provide more lore and to make sure that lore enhanced the game for sslik players. Establishing some measure of canon information risks alienating vets like Ssilmath, but it gives the new players something to work with. It's not something done willy-nilly, but with a great deal of thought and care for the consequences.
    Of course they do. It's also an even better end result when you have paid attention to what player lore is out there and craft the lore so it works with what the players have come up with. If possible and agreed to, even general lore created by other players could be incorporated. I think Ssilmath's efforts are definitely worthy of examination and potential inclusion, if he were amenable.

    I'll give you another example of an upcoming change: Brysmendrik, the dragon out in the middle of nowhere north of Dralk, started out life as a Lunus. He had some dialog in one event and passed out the dragon techs for a very short week way back when. Since then, he's been taking up space for the most part.

    As a general rule, introducing new NPCs for quests is discouraged, both because they take up system resources and because there are a lot of under-utilized NPCs out there. I needed an NPC for a quest, and Brysmendrik fit the bill perfectly.

    Problem is, the NPC I need has to be a Helian.

    Solution? Use Brysmendrik anyway. The only explanation I can offer is to shake my head sadly and say "He has some issues".

    Given the choice between breaking the established lore for Brysmendrik in order to give him purpose and a long-term, meaningful part in people's game play, and conforming to lore by creating a new NPC and thus adding to the server load, lore loses.

    It's never an easy decision, though, and not something anyone takes lightly.
    That doesn't make any sense. Brysmendrik can't fit the bill perfectly if the NPC has to be a Helian, but is a Lunus.

    If Brysmendrik is "just taking up space", i.e. he provides no support for any quests, why not simply replace him with a different NPC? He doesn't need to stand there for the rest of eternity without a purpose. He can go back to the "unseen Dragon community pool" and another Helian Ancient can pop up nearby for your quest. (I won't ask why a Helian would be hanging around Dralk...) No extra resources needed or expended.

    There are always more alternatives, you just have to look for them.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharcellus View Post
    There are always more alternatives, you just have to look for them.
    Of course I could have replaced him. However, the whole idea is to make the best use of existing resources whenever possible. Creating a new NPC is a lot more time consuming than tweaking the dialog of an existing, unused one. With all due respect, replacing him would be a waste of time, energy, and resources.

    What is gained by repurposing him far outweighs the damage done by invalidating two paragraphs of dialog that nobody has even read since his event ended, almost four years ago. If there's a player out there who's personal RP is build on Brysmendrik's old dialog, they have my sincere apologies for any inconvenience this might cause. However, I highly doubt that there is such a player, or that anyone would have ever noticed the lore issue if I hadn't brought it up in the first place.

    "The problem is that you don't HAVE to invalidate ALL the player lore, you could possibly INCORPORATE *SOME* of it."
    Maybe, possibly, depends on the specifics of the material. I've seen some personal RP that goes totally against canon lore. Something like that can't & won't be used. Rawdge and I have already indicated a willingness to consider well-written material; unfortunatly, it's not all going to be well written or usable. Further, your statement assumes that we even KNOW that a player has created such material! You may know about it, but that doesn't mean that I do.

    Once again, Rawdge and I have both said that we are open to good material. However, even if every bit of what we used was 100% player-contributed, it's still going to be different from that used by someone, somewhere.

    That is simply the order of things, and it will always be that way.
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  16. #36

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Kind of off topic, but struck me as a question:
    If we write up our character stories consistent with Istarian lore, would you entertain potentially allowing us to formally publish it as based on Horizons?

    Not sure I'd get there, but I like the thread of character development I have with Awdz before the fall of Rachival (posted in the roleplay subforum under the Order forum), and was debating if I should put more serious effort to it. I assume you'd at least want to review/edit it for consistency with game lore before allowing it to be published. I'm sure others have some excellent work to share as well (thinks of the storytellers on Order).

  17. #37

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    Kind of off topic, but struck me as a question:
    If we write up our character stories consistent with Istarian lore, would you entertain potentially allowing us to formally publish it as based on Horizons?
    Only the Great and Powerful Rick can answer that question...
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  18. #38

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    If we write up our character stories consistent with Istarian lore, would you entertain potentially allowing us to formally publish it as based on Horizons?
    The problem with this, or any other stories created by someone who isn't officially working for whatever company is developing the game is intellectual property rights. That's why you'll notice in the contest that Virtrium just ran, there was a rule in there about first electronic publishing rights. It's very "lawyer-ish" determining who owns what when it comes to things on the internet.

    As I understand it.... For example, if someone posted a story of their character here on the forums, that story is owned by them despite the fact that it's posted here. Should, at some point, they ask for it to be removed because they want to then sell it to someone else, or somewhere else, that's their right. However, they would have to remove references to Istaria and the world that Horizons is set in because that belongs to Virtrium.

    It's rather a catch 22 if you think about it. You can't profit from the work that the developers of Horizons have done by writing a story set in their world and selling it. But they can't take a story you wrote set in their world and use it in that world because then they'd be profiting from your work.

    Again, this is all as I understand it from a point of view of someone who has written for websites in the past as both volunteer and employee, not as a lawyer or with any legal training.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingOtter View Post
    Of course I could have replaced him. However, the whole idea is to make the best use of existing resources whenever possible. Creating a new NPC is a lot more time consuming than tweaking the dialog of an existing, unused one. With all due respect, replacing him would be a waste of time, energy, and resources.
    Is it REALLY that much harder to a) change the NPCs name, b) change his appearance, c) change his position (only if necessary), and d) change the dialog that you were going to change anyway? All sounds like entries in a data entry dialog (or settings in a flat file) to me. 5 minutes more? 10 maybe?

    What is gained by repurposing him far outweighs the damage done by invalidating two paragraphs of dialog that nobody has even read since his event ended, almost four years ago. If there's a player out there who's personal RP is build on Brysmendrik's old dialog, they have my sincere apologies for any inconvenience this might cause. However, I highly doubt that there is such a player, or that anyone would have ever noticed the lore issue if I hadn't brought it up in the first place.
    Why risk it, if it is not that much more difficult to avoid in the first place? Sometimes, doing things the right way proves better in the long run than doing them the most expedient way. A lesson Tulga, erm, I mean "Virtrium" should have learned by now.

    Maybe, possibly, depends on the specifics of the material. I've seen some personal RP that goes totally against canon lore. Something like that can't & won't be used. Rawdge and I have already indicated a willingness to consider well-written material; unfortunatly, it's not all going to be well written or usable. Further, your statement assumes that we even KNOW that a player has created such material! You may know about it, but that doesn't mean that I do.
    No, my statement assumes that it has been brought to your attention AFTER YOU HAVE MADE THE EFFORT TO ASK FOR IT PUBLICLY. That was the whole point of the original post. That you all make an effort to involve the players in the world's lore. I would wager that there is FAR more player-generated lore by at least one or two orders of magnitude than there ever was developer-generated lore. There are also plenty of players who have a great capacity to contribute good, canon lore, under appropriate agreements for inclusion into the world (if there weren't, you wouldn't be there, eh?). So far, no one is asking, outside of the little "Chronicles" event, for one story.

    I've considered writing some lore for HZ Dragons (actually, I did write a story for the Chronicles event, but didn't submit it because it ended up not fitting the theme), but haven't bothered because it seems like a waste of time in that it will probably never even be looked at, simply because no one there seems remotely open to the possibility, unless you become an intern.

    Yeah, sure, I know that there is player lore which a) goes against canon, and b) is very poorly written (though that is a subjective measure; some of the developer-written stuff is downright awful). I don't think inferring a level of obtuseness in my words that isn't there is making your point for you.

    Once again, Rawdge and I have both said that we are open to good material.
    You sure don't make it sound like you're very open. LOTS of discouragement in the words being used.

    However, even if every bit of what we used was 100% player-contributed, it's still going to be different from that used by someone, somewhere.
    Yeah, so? You're preaching to the choir, pastor. None of that invalidates anything I said.

    That is simply the order of things, and it will always be that way.
    If that were true, then Virtrium would be considered to be operating identically to Tulga, because "that is simply the order of things, and we'll never change".
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Menkure's Guide to the History of Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharcellus View Post
    You sure don't make it sound like you're very open. LOTS of discouragement in the words being used.
    No, just in the way you're choosing to hear them.
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

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