Class Balance?

[Kwinn]

Tarran of Chaos what is your current build? school and levels?

[Senkeleron Fell]

They could always set the probability of better loot to be inversely proportional to the number of mobs killed at one time, but the scream from the nukers would be fearful to hear. In that case the best loot for an individual would come from a fight where you took on the highest level mob you could, high to the point that you could only handle one.

[Jayne]

LOL, you know. Even if they made it so, that say I could kill the same amount as a nuker. Lets say 30 bugs in 15 min. There would still be complaining as I see it. For instance:

Nuker goes and kills 30 bugs in one blast. Runs to a safe spot and goes to kitchen and makes himself a sandwich and get a soda, relaxes a moment, maybe even watch a little TV. Then returns and nukes again.

Melee made with more effective kills. Would still need to be at the keyboard to hit those better or less time waiting specials continually till the 30 are killed which will probably those 15min, then go at it again. No sandwich, no soda, no TV :(

LOLOLOLOL

Jayne

[Helcat]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Helcat wrote: what's wrong is quite simple.


Rather than band together and support additive
measures as a means of giving purpose to
adventuring, many are lobbying for negative
measures. This has in the past proven to be
the death knell in terms of subscriptions.

There's 2 perspectives here: Single classing and multiclassing.

There are clearly classes that are much worse then others. And I fully support these lesser single classes being fixed. Spell Schools finished. Useless and pointless abilities reworked. Tweaked. Classed defined more. Additive measures.

However while i don't feel any 1 single class is overpowered. That doesn't mean the single classes have abilities, spells, etc that aren't overpowered, or "undesirable". Take Binding Crystals, the spell is absolutely necessary to those classes that get it. But I can see how a 28 second unbreakable root could be undesirable.

Take some random new named powerful mob with no root immunity. I root him, and then My group of myself and 9 other casters trash him for like 30k damage in 28 seconds. He dies. So they they have to make the mob root immune. But that's bad for those classes that use roots. As now some of their spells/abilties are useless. The change to Binding Crystals puts a limit on Binding Crystals where before there was no limit. From a boss/mob design perspective. That's a good thing. Now the single classes that depended on BC should be recompensated. Whether new damage limits on BC are enough, remains to be seen. But hopefully it'll result in less root immune bosses.


Now when it comes to multiclassing, there are combinations that are overpowered. Myself included. The problem doesn't come when fighting any 1 mob. It comes that combinations allow for players to destroy many high level mobs at once. And that's bad for the economy, its bad for single class players, its bad for the server.

Take the loot tables. As a single classed player, killing one at a time, the loot tables are thoroughly unrewarding. Its abysmal. The loot in this game as it stands isnt all that great anyway. But to have to spend an hour killing for a small pile of unspun ironsilk, a couple hoardables, a few trophies, and a pair of purple spider venom, is terrible. The difference in reward for a multiclassed farmer vs a single classer kiling single mobs is huge. Some single class player struggles against Dire wolves for a few hours, extracts a few fangs. And goes to sell them on Sir Aidan, only to have some farmer who was farming trophies drop 200 fangs at once for 2s apiece. Bad for new/single classed players. They can't raise the drop rates, that just makes farming even more lucrative.

but whatabout those of us who don't have the build
you have, wherein we can solo a single mob all the way
up to SoG? You keep commenting on AoE buildsand
farming for comps... what about those who never stand
a chance of getting rare loot, while others with the
"uber-single-mob-build" collect vaultfulls of demon
weapons and other rare items?

the ability to fight multiples optimally is generally
inversely proportionate to the ability to solo the
hardest Nameds with the best loot...

should i cry foul because a Druid multi can't do
what you do?

no, because irespect that different builds excel
at different things... and rather than envy what i
can't do as well, i focus on what i can.

[PJ]

SoG's different in many ways from the rest of the named mobs. He's vastly more powerful, and is the only one with a reasonable chance of dropping actual loot.


Your standard named mobs drop just as easilyto people specializing in multiple mobs as they do tosingle mob specialists. In Guardian, I can pull all the giant fire beetles I want, or I can go take down Surtheim, Thistleface or Umyarr.

SoG was the first uber named mob. In essence a test. And since his inception he's been continually tweaked to limit his soloability. Its still possible, but much harder then initially. And I'm sure both SoG, and new epic mobs will be tweaked in some ways to limit it further. And the methods used will most likely be tweaked as well.

The tools of farming builds aren't the only thing being tweaked here. We're seeing changes to BC, and mezzes/roots, and if they do start wider changes I'm sure other tools of the single mob specialist as well: Single target stuns, snares, massive debuffs, damage immunities.

[Jayne]

And for the record, I have personally seen PJ's Vault and its not full of Demon weapons! Well not since the vault increase anyway?

:)

Jayne

[Helcat]

it's an example, Jayne. The point is,
there are those who can solo the
toughest Nameds but not farm as
well, and vice versa...




(and how exactly do you see another player's vault?)

[Jayne]

it's an example, Jayne. The point is,
there are those who can solo the
toughest Nameds but not farm as
well, and vice versa...




(and how exactly do you see another player's vault?)

Ummm ok.

And the vault thing is a joke, wish people would lighten around here, Sad

Jayne

[Tarran of Chaos]

NA

[AmonGwareth]

I would refer you all to this page: http://community.istaria.com/default.aspx?pg=comingsoon

This topic is not on there.

[Helcat]

thank you Amon.

Too much speculation being stated as fact
in this thread.

[Crazyfingers]

I am strongly against Nerfing. To me it is a last resort. Kinda like going to war.

Would rather see the devs try Class based crystals and Rewards for Experience over lvl 100--FIRST. Would be alot easier and cause very little anger among the restless. And Just might encourage Players to stick with a certain combat style.
I hope the devs choose this direction- promote diversity not force it.

But it seems the Devs are hellbent on nerfing classes. Its their game and if Nerfs are the last resort they should be implemented correctly.

NimKhazad

[Y]

[Crazyfingers]

I would refer you all to this page: http://community.istaria.com/default.aspx?pg=comingsoon

This topic is not on there.

Maybe the topic isnt on there, but that doesnt mean much. You made changes to mithril that came out of left field. Nerfs to binding crystals are allready in the process.

Im might be crazy but I'm not blind.

NimKhazad

[Crazyfingers]

My gosh this is gonna sound like a rant but not really because I have been guilty of it as well.

People! If your going to jump into a debate READ THE WHOLE THREAD!!

Someone saying that I use Arcane magic and stuns and mezzes!

Iwas a Vampire!!! I sucked blood SPIRIT magic. I had NO stuns or mezzes. I had the ability to use Nature spells but choose not to. Only Arcane I had was multicast and perect spell abilities. Only nature I used was DarkCyclone.

And for the record, Im not a lair. I could pull mass amounts of mobs for hours upon hours. As Bloodmage or Guardian. It isnt simple. Started with Engraged wisps and dire wolfs south of Lerena when I was level45 Spiritist. That was along long time ago.

Jeez folks read the whole thread not just the last page.

NimKhazad

[imported_Twelvebagger]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Helcat wrote: what's wrong is quite simple.


Rather than band together and support additive
measures as a means of giving purpose to
adventuring, many are lobbying for negative
measures. This has in the past proven to be
the death knell in terms of subscriptions.

There's 2 perspectives here: Single classing and multiclassing.

There are clearly classes that are much worse then others. And I fully support these lesser single classes being fixed. Spell Schools finished. Useless and pointless abilities reworked. Tweaked. Classed defined more. Additive measures.

However while i don't feel any 1 single class is overpowered. That doesn't mean the single classes have abilities, spells, etc that aren't overpowered, or "undesirable". Take Binding Crystals, the spell is absolutely necessary to those classes that get it. But I can see how a 28 second unbreakable root could be undesirable.

Take some random new named powerful mob with no root immunity. I root him, and then My group of myself and 9 other casters trash him for like 30k damage in 28 seconds. He dies. So they they have to make the mob root immune. But that's bad for those classes that use roots. As now some of their spells/abilties are useless. The change to Binding Crystals puts a limit on Binding Crystals where before there was no limit. From a boss/mob design perspective. That's a good thing. Now the single classes that depended on BC should be recompensated. Whether new damage limits on BC are enough, remains to be seen. But hopefully it'll result in less root immune bosses.


Now when it comes to multiclassing, there are combinations that are overpowered. Myself included. The problem doesn't come when fighting any 1 mob. It comes that combinations allow for players to destroy many high level mobs at once. And that's bad for the economy, its bad for single class players, its bad for the server.

Take the loot tables. As a single classed player, killing one at a time, the loot tables are thoroughly unrewarding. Its abysmal. The loot in this game as it stands isnt all that great anyway. But to have to spend an hour killing for a small pile of unspun ironsilk, a couple hoardables, a few trophies, and a pair of purple spider venom, is terrible. The difference in reward for a multiclassed farmer vs a single classer kiling single mobs is huge. Some single class player struggles against Dire wolves for a few hours, extracts a few fangs. And goes to sell them on Sir Aidan, only to have some farmer who was farming trophies drop 200 fangs at once for 2s apiece. Bad for new/single classed players. They can't raise the drop rates, that just makes farming even more lucrative.

Despite being one of the bunch who can and regularly does (did, when I played) farm mass piles of dires for trophies, dumping 200 fangs forpocket change, I fully agree with the above.

I am however, picky on how they decide to fix the above problem.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

Exactly PJ!!! Yes they Can't raise the drop rates. As I have said they need to raise the spawn rates.
Jayne

I'm not convinced on this one yet, Ms. Pain. I think it might only serve to feed the farmers even more.

I just wonder, is there a way to add loot that is tiered such that at the highest end, it takes either a group or a very polished hunter to obtain (similar to SoG but not quite as obnoxious). Then add in lower tiered loot that is proportionately easier to get but not desireable enough for a 200 rated biped to go hunt it out?

Just rambling . . .

[arseovrteakettl]

I agree with Jayne. [Y]

[Royal]

BTW, why not give classes certain bonusses for using 'their own' spells.
Shaman should have better debufs, and powerfull blight spells.
==(BETTER DEBUFS!)==

Druid should have more bonus by using nature spells, etc.
(we've nature mastry, +5 dmg delay adjusted, change it to 15 or something)

That way players stick to their roles as school and will play more own styles.
People always complain about nerfes, but never about bonusses.
And maybe give all mobs 10% more hp to compensate for the more dmg/better healings/better debufs etc.

[Phillip]

i'm not sure what the deal is ...i personally don't know a single player in game who thinks multiclassing is detrimental to their gaming experience. i know a bunch of folks who stayed and playing still because of MC so why the f**K are they nerfing BC, multicast and perfect spell?

the justifications do not out weight the negative basis of it all. biped can multiclass. it is a choice. let them be.

[evilkarl]

the justifications do not out weight the negative basis of it all. biped can multiclass. it is a choice. let them be.

No one is trying to remove multiclassing. However their are numerous aspects of the current class system that need to be fixed or improved. Some of the things imo that need to be fixed are. [*]Many abilities that should be class specific currently can be mastered [*]Many classes have useless abilities or too few defining abilities [*]Some classes are incomplete or lack uniqueness[*]Spell lines need work (additions and alterations)[*]Stat stacking for min/maxing[/list]If these things were altered for better or worse I would be affected. However unlike some I know and accept the fact that the system has its flaws and needs work. If a changes pisses me off enough I will just leave but if its one I have suggested before (Here) Or posted about before then I will live with it.



Of course some can just not see the bigger picture.