Class Balance?

[Kwinn]

Forgot one- No more cast tier II, cast tier III, cast tier IV, cast tier V of the same spell.

NimK

I have to disagree with this one. Your paper armor wearing schools rely on this to survive. I will admit that the recycle times are so short that chaining multiple tiers of spells can get overpowering in some circumstances. I would suggest increasing the delay on the spells most frequestly used in the fashion...the AoEs.


Everything else you suggested in your initial post is pretty much right on the money.

[AA0]

I like that idea helcat, arcanes keep ps/multi while the mystics keep revits... very interesting change.

My suggestion is this.... on top of the general relook abilities need to have, invoke an armour penalty.
Cloth armour - maintains the casting of all spells.
Leather - +20% delay/recycle to all spells not gained naturally (ex. druid would get a nerf to spirit/blight/life)
Chainmail +40%
Platemail +60%

Couple this with linking spell timers, and you start to make the classes make more sense. Of course the %ages can be adjusted, thats just an idea... maybe 0/15/30/45 would be more reasonable. For example, It allows battlemages to cast flame spells like they should, but stops massive chain bombing over and over because only flame will recycle properly.

Its very easy and simple to understand, it doesn't require idiotic tweaking of give this person this, and this person that, etc.

[Joaqim]

Hmmm,

why not completly remove area dmg? As a Druid or any other nature casting school - I fire off Thunder V and Lightning Storm V and then, should I go order a pizza waiting for the timer to recycle? Same for the Arcane schools and their bombs.
Well that would leave me to go RVR again and master Whirwind Attack and Quacke attack which both has a very good chance to trigger Demons Axe area DoT as well. Or well, finally lvling my hatchling.

Minor Tweaks-
Healers/Druids/Clerics/Reavers/Guardians are the OVERPOWERED CLASSES!! They are the SHELL that allows multiclassers to become OVERPOWERED. Fix the shell and alls good.

What is about massive multiclassed Ranger? CoT, much better armor then Druid if using a shield and able to cast nature/spiri line. Same for SHMN, but at least no CoT.

Suggestions? Give those pure Melee's (and Scout) a money burning ability to deal massive dmg on single target on a short timer.

[imported_tjl]

I have to disagree with this one. Your paper armor wearing schools rely on this to survive.

if they decided to finish the classes, like people have been sreaming since month one... I don't think it would be a huge issue.

As a 100 mage and 100 wizard, I didn't need to chain cast to kill 1 or 2 mobs. a 100 conj or a 100 sorc will need to because they are broken beyond reason.

[Guaran]

I would say finish out classes and spell lines first.

Some abilities should be un-masterable. For the most part the powerful ones already are. (Ethereal Blade, Cloak of Thorns, Superior Ressurect)

Some re-focusing of abilties and spells, while ADDING new un-masterable unique class abilities is the way I would recommend improving schools. NimK's crystal Idea he posted elsewhere was another interesting way to add abilties, and let the user choose how to do it, what to combine with what, etc.


As far as balancing one school vs another? WTF is the point? Not all schools are, or should be equal. Why should a monk need to be as powerful as a mage or a dragon? They shouldn't. Doesn't mean the class is "broken", just somewhat un-interesting and useless. You need to ADD something worthwhile and fun to it.

It sounds like to me you want to remove the whole point to multiclassing. Before you do that, you had better get an ENDGAME in place. Otherwise you'll have ALOT of bored people. If there isnt some reason to play, then people will go play something else.



The healer example smoeone gave... why shouldn't a healer who has also learned the ways of the spiritist, be able to use spirit bolt?

Thats the whole point of multiclassing. Theres MANY classes that by themselves are worthless. The point of multiclassing is (or has become) to learn many things and become well-rounded.IMHO that should not change.

Maybe limiting the number of total classes you can join, or the number of classes whose abilities you have (simultaneous) access to, might be somewhat ok. A little refocusing of spells and abilities. but the point should not be to make a Healer "gimped".

You are going about this the wrong way, the effort of taking things away is wrong approach. A little less heavy-handedness, and alot more thought need to go in.

Chain-casting. If you remove this, would take a big part of what powers some classes away. I'd almost go so far as to say that doing this would remove alot of the "uber overpowered godness" from most of the MC builds. however, this change is one that actually makes sense. You can't use area syphon VII (ability), then use area syphon VI, the V, etc. why should you be able to do that with spells? The counter to this change would be any classes whose viability depended on this oversight, get something newadded.

A few of the unmaster-able abilties, I'd go so far as to say SHOULD be masterable by related schools. Cloak of Thorns, nature disciple should get that too, probably shaman as well. Can just place the levels at which the sister classes get it to be higher or lower. (for example shaman could get Cot, but not get Cot1 until the same level that druid gets CoT2, etc etc). Spiritist and spirit disciple could get ethereal blade, but perhaps not until a higher level, and not get the group EB at all.




Oh well im rambling this post taking too long. I think more unmasterable, unique, fun, class defining, abilities need to be ADDED, before you go taking things away. (my opinion in a nutshell). And an Endgame wouldn't hurt either.

[evilkarl]

I agree that it makes sense that if someone has learnt something they should be able to keep using it however this isn't a skill based game you learn things as a result of leveling a school and might not ever use them the current spell division is a method of balancing things. I find it odd that once you have 910 armour use you ever have to wear armour below 910 armour use ever again the level requirement on spells, weapons, armour is another of those annoying things present for balance purposes.

A healer could use spirit bolt as bolts should probably be generic within division (priest/arcane) however I don't think they should be available cross division. I also don't think all spells should be available to them from nature and spirit lines just because they are a priest caster.

I would give up my revits if there was food or potions I could use to heal to reduce downtime or save my arse in battle. Admitedly I have life taps and do play a priest class so under AA0's suggestion could still keep the revits but I would like to see items that can heal better than just a HoT.

Chain casting needs to be removed but as pointed out the schools that rely on it (and some do) direly need some additions before it can be down without completely breaking them.

Spell delay modifications for heavier armour not native to the schools would be a decent addition but I still think a skill reduction would be more effective. However I wonder if the delay is possible to implement at all.

[PJ]

You could implement the delay penalty, but I'm not sure they could easily make it differentiate between non native spells.

[IndyMan]

easier if they just said "today you get to keep 3 advent classes and 3 crafting" pick them and play on.

[Crazyfingers]

I thought long and hard about this today. Kinda weights deeply on me mind. Read and Re-read all the post on this thread, Kwinn's and others. My conclusion is this.

Tweaking, adjusting, or nerfing is gonna cause alot of problems. Most parts of multiclassing works, maybe not as intended, but none the less Works. Instead of taking away players abilities, as AAO suggested, take away their armor. ANYONE wearing ARMOR besides CLOTH cannot cast over tier IV spells. Im gonna use my build for example because its what Im most familiar with.

Guardian/Healer/MONK/Bloodmage If I choose to play as a Guardian everything is the same except my spells only go up to tier IV. I still have 1500 spirit from being a bloodmage. My tier IV spirit bolt will still hit for decent damage. My EP will still hit for decent damage. Just not as much as A TIER V one.

So if a Healer, Druid, Battlemage, Guardian, Reaver, Paladin etc wants to go the MORE caster route, THEY STILL CAN. Just need to drop down to cloth armor.

Nuthing changes except requirements on casting tier V spells is CLOTH ARMOR.

Casters need to fall more in line with mellee and archery playstyles. IMHO Reducing a Casters armor is the fairest way in the current set up. Nobody loses abilities or stats just have to take the risk of using flimsier armor. Im sure there would be a few complaints but they could be easily defended against.

Once this is implemented, could finish schools, fix broken abilities and add improved spells and abilities to classes to make them more playable and interesting.

NimKhazad

[Crazyfingers]

Or could wait to implement this with master spells. Can only use TIER VI Master spells if wearing cloth armor. So current players are not affected at all, but to use the more powerful Master spells in the future, choosing Spiritist, Sorcerer, Mage etc to play as a main might become more appealing. Could still use the Master spells as a TANK build but would have to wear cloth armor.

NimK

[Helcat]

Or could wait to implement this with master spells. Can only use TIER VI Master spells if wearing cloth armor. So current players are not affected at all, but to use the more powerful Master spells in the future, choosing Spiritist, Sorcerer, Mage etc to play as a main might become more appealing. Could still use the Master spells as a TANK build but would have to wear cloth armor.

NimK

hmm... ya know... I thinkthat suggestion could work.
But only if the current spell lines and abilities aren't
nerfed. I would be willing to risk the tradeoff in armor
in order to have the ability to cast higher tier spells...
Others may not, but to me,it seems areasonablesolution.

[Y]

[Crazyfingers]

So the tradeoff of ARMORvs Casting Power is the balance. A Healer can still be an uber spellcasterwith heavy duty Nuking but the tradeoff is Wearing Cloth armor. Cast tier V heals, spirit bolts, buffs etc in this Playstyle. More of a group type build. But then if this same healer wanted to go solo some mobs. Could put on some better armor but lose some of his power, in essense slowing down his battles. Can take more damage with better armor-but takes longer to kill because spells are weaker.

For me, I could play as a Bloodmage in group battles, blasting out heavy damage but letting a heavy armor wearer take the lead. But then if I wanted to solo could go back to Guardian for better armor and lose a little spell power. Longer fights but better protection.

A nuker returns to normal- High damage but Weak defense.

NimK - just rambling

[imported_Ssilmath]

Ok, one problem with that NimK...

I've been leveling up druid using heals, CoT and a Blade of Rending...my prey, level 120 WA, blights/kwellen/Abominations...My armor...Dark Forest wear and unteched tier I leather, all of it just for aesthetics, and I've been doing just fine, usually doing 2 blights at once as a level 65...If CoT were less effective and I had no BoR, it'd be a different story methinks, but there you have it...I can take crowds of tier III and IV, and even tier V and VI without great armor, solo...

[Helcat]

would also help solve a lot of the farming issues
I would think... as a nuker could no longer count
on high armor for protection...

Casting Powervs Armor...

I like it.

[Helcat]

so what Ssilmath... what you describe can hardly
be considered overpowered... I'd say it's a non-issue.
The goal afterall isn't to make it so that hunting more
than a single MOB is downright impossible...

[Crazyfingers]

BoR? What does that mean?

Yes but it is a move in the right direction. Cloak of Thorns is way overpowered. IMHO it should either be removed or adjusted. The CoT is what is allowing you to do this. If you didnt have it, the battle would take you 2,3,4,5 times as long. I dont want folks to think Im picking on Druids, but that one ability(CoT) makes everything simple.

If BoR is boars hide mask-personally I feel this item should only be useable by PURe Mellee classes and not stack. This item used properly is unfair to the players who started later in Istaria.

NimKhazad

[Helcat]

it's a Blade of Rending, Nim...

allows anyone with Slash skill from another class
to use a slash weapon, even as a Mage type...

[Helcat]

well, Cloak of Thorns is Druids class-defining ability.
I'd be against the proposed suggestion re: armor
restriction if you are actually advocating losing CoT.

[Crazyfingers]

oh I C. Dont really see a problem with that.

I think Cloak of Thorns is a great ability- Its fun. I wouldnt say nerf it all to heck but maybe let it slowly get stronger. Level 30 druid using a CoT only reflects a small percentage say 30%. Percentage increases as Druid level goes up. So when trying to level against a level 120 fyakki that hits a level 30 Druid with 300 damage. The CoT only reflects 90 or so damage back.

Anyways Armor vs Spell Power.

Theres a few things like CoT, Multicast, Chain casting tier spells etc that could be tweaked. But would be a step in the right direction.

NimKhazad

[imported_Ssilmath]

What I was trying to point out Helcat is that armor isn't always the deciding factor in battles...sure, it'll help a lot towards taking away from ubernuking, but it's not 'the' key factor...

Course, my opinion is invalid since I don't use druid as my main class...