DEVS bring back the old ancient model!

[Tribunal]

I'm just as happy to debate with you as any other person here my age or older.

as it is productivity. And through it we could hope to find Mirsathia's middle ground.

And just because of ones ample vocabulary doesn't mean you've reached the pinicale of maturity.

We could stress a battle of the brains all we want, and what is it doing to us? I'll admit it, lowering us to a level we do not recognize because we don't want to see ourselves there.

This is, for lack of a better word, stupid.

A ridiculous topic, as we are seasoned players setting no good examples for newbs, Mirsathia is right, the number of newbs in the world is growing, I can see it when my brother plays. I have also witnessed one of my best friends leave, and with that I have seen dozens of new faces.

again, Ancients are not a majority in the game, they have opinions that are considered because of the mark of a seasoned player. But when it comes down to sheer numbers, Bi-peds count for over 60% of the games players, we are the majority, you have gotten progression, we want ours. To us you are trying to hold up our development because of a stupid model, when it is as simple downloading a file to your computer placing it in a folder and having it work. I know you don't want to do it, but who's going to win a handful of dragons who want it changed back/care, or the towering mass of bi-peds who want their turn of the development cycle.

I am leaving this thread now, it is silly and there is no need to fight over this topic anymore.

[Pharcellus]

im kinda puzzled as to why you are so dead set against the slight adjustment to size. you said yourself that you support changes. and since you like to ask others to find where you said things (as to not put words in your mouth) here is a quote: (bolded for emphasis)

READ the passage. READ what I have said in this thread and others.

In a nutshell, here is what I have REPEATEDLY said:

Unless (UNLESS) the devs can give us the specific and detailed rationale of why the change was made, I maintain that the change was NOT well-thought-out, or well-considered. Why? Because I know of NO ONE who was consulted on the subject before the decision was made. Thus, I maintain that the decision was made in a vacuum of information, is ill-advised, and should be un-done for those reasons alone. It was NOT well-implemented, as the model is broken and quite ugly. That stance is not in conflict with what I said in the quoted passage.

the change has enhanced my overall gamplay, since it is no longer impossible to select things I am interacting with using the mouse, or even see them for that matter. and it stands to reason that other current, and future characters, will have this enhancement too. And frankly, I challenge the claims that many are making that a clear majority of players are against the change.

So, you are saying that you played the game for a while WITH the old Ancient models in-place, sufferred, the new Ancient models were put in, and now things are better? I'd like to know how you played with the old Ancient models before the change, considering it was less than a week before release to the live shards when the models were changed. Did you install the old model pack and play with it for a while? Like a few weeks?

And many posters, including yourself, are stating that the change was without reason. Maybe, maybe not... we can speculate until the end of time... but we do not have access to their code, and we cannot forsee any future or even current issues that may have arisen by keeping the old models. Just because the game designers are not telling us a reason, does not mean there isn't one. It just means they have poor communication. which they do.

..and this is an attempt to get that information, since other avenues have yet to yield anything to resolve the dispute.

[Pharcellus]

as it is productivity. And through it we could hope to find Mirsathia's middle ground.

Mirsathia is no more interested in finding a "middle ground" than anyone else here.

And just because of ones ample vocabulary doesn't mean you've reached the pinicale of maturity.

You'll note, of course, that I never claimed or implied it did, either.

A ridiculous topic, as we are seasoned players setting no good examples for newbs, Mirsathia is right, the number of newbs in the world is growing, I can see it when my brother plays. I have also witnessed one of my best friends leave, and with that I have seen dozens of new faces.

I think it is quite instructive as the appropriate way to get responses out of Tulga on topics of interest and concern to the players. They want better newb examples? They need to set the tone for it. I've tried and been rebuffed. So, this is for all the newbs out there: HEY NEWBS! This is how you do it![Y][:D]

again, Ancients are not a majority in the game, they have opinions that are considered because of the mark of a seasoned player. But when it comes down to sheer numbers, Bi-peds count for over 60% of the games players, we are the majority, you have gotten progression, we want ours. To us you are trying to hold up our development because of a stupid model, when it is as simple downloading a file to your computer placing it in a folder and having it work. I know you don't want to do it, but who's going to win a handful of dragons who want it changed back/care, or the towering mass of bi-peds who want their turn of the development cycle.

Umm. I've not asked for any development time. If putting the old models back takes a player 5 minutes, then it will probably take less time for the devs. It takes 15-20 minutes to write up a detailed response to our concerns and post it, then maybe a couple hours for further discussion. You can have all the progression dev time you want now. I just really couldn't give a flying crap anymore.

I am leaving this thread now, it is silly and there is no need to fight over this topic anymore.

*waves bye*

[imported_tjl]

So, you are saying that you played the game for a while WITH the old Ancient models in-place, sufferred, the new Ancient models were put in, and now things are better?

yes that exactly what I said. better is quite relative though. I will rephrase to say that the new ancient model is more accomodating in the game world, in comparison to the old.

I'd like to know how you played with the old Ancient models before the change, considering it was less than a week before release to the live shards when the models were changed. Did you install the old model pack and play with it for a while? Like a few weeks?

My character is mirrored on the blight server for testing. I experienced all the aforementioned trouble as many of the test dragons were achieving ancient. The arena on blight also demonstrated (to me and a few of fellow players) that combat with ancient sized dragons was particularily gruelling.

Unless (UNLESS) the devs can give us the specific and detailed rationale of why the change was made, I maintain that the change was NOT well-thought-out, or well-considered. Why? Because I know of NO ONE who was consulted on the subject before the decision was made. Thus, I maintain that the decision was made in a vacuum of information, is ill-advised, and should be un-done for those reasons alone.

by your standard, almost all of the games changes (positive, negative, and all inbetween) have been ill-advised. I really cannot think of any changes at the moment that they publicly asked for player feedback before it hit blight. (secret focus groups do not count, IMO)

[Pharcellus]

If your only experience with the old Ancient model was on Blight, then it was QUITE limited, and was only experienceable for a few days. I don't consider it sufficient enough to make a valid judgment call, but that's not going to make any difference to you.

My main problem is people who make claims like yours did NOT have a character on Blight in that window, didn't play it in that window, or have never loaded the old models to compare, yet they say "it is MUCH better with the new models". Yeah, right.

The thing is, there are plenty of Dragons and bipeds who are playing with the old models loaded, have played with them for weeks now, and they claim just the opposite.

by your standard, almost all of the games changes (positive, negative, and all inbetween) have been ill-advised.

I'm not the only one that feels that way. Check out the other forums sometime. Lots of people thinking that they are making lots of "ill-advised" changes.

I really cannot think of any changes at the moment that they publicly asked for player feedback before it hit blight. (secret focus groups do not count, IMO)

Kinda makes one wonder that maybe they should start, hmm?

[Mirsathia]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Mirsathia wrote:I just get incredibly frustrated that so many people here are complaining and complaining, and demanding change.. But yet they have nothing actually constructive to suggest, for all of their raging, except "Put it back to the way it was!"Mir, for all your supposed 'looking for middle ground' it is quite clear that if we do not subscribe to your point of view 100%, then we are not being constructive.

At best that not only makes you guilty of the same things you are accusing us of, but it also makes you a hippocrit.

I am not going to change your mind any more than you are going to change mine, at this point. We are just too far appart on our oppinions in this matter, so lets just agree to disagree. Keep in mind also that this thread is directed at the developers.

Well.... no. What I've been saying this whole time -- I suppose you haven't been listening - is that being constructive is NOT childishly demanding that the devs absolutely MUST put the model back to the old size.

I've already said that I don't personally care about the model one way or the other. It's 15%! Only 15%! I can setscale it like that I want to -- which is pointless, since I setscale myself to .5 half the time anyway for my own paranoia's sake. I use 3D perspective 90% of the time, and I can never feel as if the camera is pulled quite enough for me. It's pretty unnerving. ;)

What amazes and boggles me is that people are actually having such a tantrum over this 15% that they are willing to leave the game over an aesthetic model change that they can 'fix' themself with a patch. Because they don't want to 'have' to.

I do sincerely apologize for being very abrasive here in these posts... it's not the type of person that I normally am; I will defend myself, however, when people accuse me of various stupid things. I'm more than willing to give as much as I get. ;p Under normal circumstances, I'm a pretty laid-back person who is more than willing to help people out with anything they need.

~Mirsathia

[imported_tjl]

If your only experience with the old Ancient model was on Blight, then it was QUITE limited, and was only experienceable for a few days. I don't consider it sufficient enough to make a valid judgment call, but that's not going to make any difference to you.

a few days, a few months I really don't see how my perception of the expierence would have been limited... I went around towns. I participated in combat. I had trouble with the models. A few days or a few years of that is all the same. elucidate to me why that is insufficeint. its not like they would have become smaller over time...

My main problem is people who make claims like yours did NOT have a character on Blight in that window, didn't play it in that window, or have never loaded the old models to compare, yet they say "it is MUCH better with the new models". Yeah, right.

agreed.

I really cannot think of any changes at the moment that they publicly asked for player feedback before it hit blight. (secret focus groups do not count, IMO)

Kinda makes one wonder that maybe they should start, hmm?

part of me says hopefully never, because that would make their excruciatingly long developent even longer. and part of me says yes, because the players can (hopefully) hammer out a solution or goal that devs can agree with. and we wont have issues like this.

[Mirsathia]

Mirsathia is no more interested in finding a "middle ground" than anyone else here.

Actually, I do want a middle ground. I just get riled up about stuff and go a bit overboard. My apologies for that.

~Mirsathia

[Pharcellus]

a few days, a few months I really don't see how my perception of the expierence would have been limited... I went around towns. I participated in combat. I had trouble with the models. A few days or a few years of that is all the same. elucidate to me why that is insufficeint. its not like they would have become smaller over time...

Because it takes time to adjust to changes in how to group and fight. Things I have learned to do to make it easy for me to deal with my size as an Old Model (tm) Ancient, and things I have learned to do as a biped to deal with others on my screen that are displayed as Old Model (tm) Ancients. You're not going to learn those things in the few hours of playtime in the 3-4 days from testing completion to the change, to the release on live.

[Pharcellus]

Well.... no. What I've been saying this whole time -- I suppose you haven't been listening - is that being constructive is NOT childishly demanding that the devs absolutely MUST put the model back to the old size.

I think that perhaps you fail to understand the rationale that these demands are made under. It goes something like this: "If you devs are not going to do the right thing and talk to us about this subject, then we demand that you return the models back to the way they were. It is obvious it was done hastily, without proper consideration or input from the playerbase, and if you can't do right by us one way, we expect you to do right by us by restoring what was wrongfully taken."

Basically, the SAME thing I KEEP SAYING.

It's 15%! Only 15%!

HOW many TIMES does it have to be said?!? It is NOT about the freaking 15%!! OK?!?!?! IT IS ABOUT TAKING AWAY SOMETHING THAT WAS PROMISED TO THE PLAYERBASE SINCE BETA WITHOUT A FREAKING PROPER EXPLANATION!!!

CAN you understand that?

What amazes and boggles me is that people are actually having such a tantrum over this 15% that they are willing to leave the game over an aesthetic model change that they can 'fix' themself with a patch. Because they don't want to 'have' to.

Let me put it to you another way. Let's say that the devs were putting out a new "style pack" for bipeds and at the last minute, decided that hair color and hair styles on bipeds had some problem, and they changed them all to a short, bland hairstyle with black hair. Further, the top of people's skulls sticks through the top of the hair model, because it doesn't quite fit right, being a last-minute hackjob. The change is shoved out with a bunch of other biped changes, including new clothes styles. Further, the devs have been promising more character customization options since beta, where NPCs have had all these wonderful clothes and hair styles that people have been looking at all this time, with the expectation that someday, people will get to look like that. Now that the new "style patch" is out, people are all noticing that their hair is short, black, and the top of their head is above the "hair" on the model. It's all aesthetic, so who the hell cares, right? I mean it's only a minor change, less than 15% of the total overall character appearance. Why get upset over that?

I REALLY don't give a flying duck whether they come clean, or put the models back; either one is perfectly acceptable. However, I FEAR that they won't or can't do the former, so I (and others here) will feel it necessary to demand the latter. Hence, that is what we have done. THAT IS ALL THE HELL THIS IS ABOUT, OK?

[Mirsathia]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Mirsathia wrote:Well.... no. What I've been saying this whole time -- I suppose you haven't been listening - is that being constructive is NOT childishly demanding that the devs absolutely MUST put the model back to the old size.

I think that perhaps you fail to understand the rationale that these demands are made under. It goes something like this: "If you devs are not going to do the right thing and talk to us about this subject, then we demand that you return the models back to the way they were. It is obvious it was done hastily, without proper consideration or input from the playerbase, and if you can't do right by us one way, we expect you to do right by us by restoring what was wrongfully taken."

Basically, the SAME thing I KEEP SAYING.

It's 15%! Only 15%!

HOW many TIMES does it have to be said?!? It is NOT about the freaking 15%!! OK?!?!?! IT IS ABOUT TAKING AWAY SOMETHING THAT WAS PROMISED TO THE PLAYERBASE SINCE BETA WITHOUT A FREAKING PROPER EXPLANATION!!!

CAN you understand that?

What amazes and boggles me is that people are actually having such a tantrum over this 15% that they are willing to leave the game over an aesthetic model change that they can 'fix' themself with a patch. Because they don't want to 'have' to.

Let me put it to you another way. Let's say that the devs were putting out a new "style pack" for bipeds and at the last minute, decided that hair color and hair styles on bipeds had some problem, and they changed them all to a short, bland hairstyle with black hair. Further, the top of people's skulls sticks through the top of the hair model, because it doesn't quite fit right, being a last-minute hackjob. The change is shoved out with a bunch of other biped changes, including new clothes styles. Further, the devs have been promising more character customization options since beta, where NPCs have had all these wonderful clothes and hair styles that people have been looking at all this time, with the expectation that someday, people will get to look like that. Now that the new "style patch" is out, people are all noticing that their hair is short, black, and the top of their head is above the "hair" on the model. It's all aesthetic, so who the hell cares, right? I mean it's only a minor change, less than 15% of the total overall character appearance. Why get upset over that?

I REALLY don't give a flying duck whether they come clean, or put the models back; either one is perfectly acceptable. However, I FEAR that they won't or can't do the former, so I (and others here) will feel it necessary to demand the latter. Hence, that is what we have done. THAT IS ALL THE HELL THIS IS ABOUT, OK?

:/

Well, that's not been evidenced at all in my reading here. Perhaps what you, personally, are looking for is an explanation regarding the change, and I know that's what Kit's explained specifically here that she(he?) wants, also. The people I'm aiming at aren't people like you--I'd like an explanation too, just for closure on this ******** thing.

The people I'm aiming this at are the people who are saying, "The ONLY acceptable response by the Devs is to return the model. No reasoning will satisfy us. [insert lots of conspiracy theory against dragons here]" And I have heard that demand plenty of times here. It's to those people I'm saying - you NEED to either be willing to accept an explanation as to why they changed the models, or you need to suck it up, or edit the model yourself. 'Cause, most likely, those are going to be their only options. :/ I really doubt that they'll actually change the models back.

And, yeah, I would like some new character customizations, too. The new heads just don't do it.. where're our bronze dragons? Where're our grey, black, brown markings? Why are there dragon NPCs who can get silver markings on black hide, when we as players can't? I still don't understand why they didn't bother adding such 'obvious' stuff.

..........................

Honestly, I'm of two minds regarding Tulga.

On the one hand.... They're doing stellar, stellar work for just how few devs they have hired. What is it, ten total? Less, a bit more? These poor guys get so much less credit than they deserve. They worked as hard as they could to get the ARoP out, and now they're pulling long shifts trying to finish Lairs, and the Lairshaping school, for us. And what thanks do they get? "Ancients are NERFED! (What?) Lairshaping is NERFED! (It's not even out!) Models were NERFED! (Okay, no explanation forthcoming there, but still)"

Where's the gratitude that they're getting? Is there any, here, on these boards? I haven't seen much, and that hurts them as much or more than it hurts my sense of pride as a dragon player. We sound, on the whole, like ungrateful brats. :/


...On the other hand, Tulga is doing a pretty low job of communication as to what they're doing, and why. What they need to do, rather than making the devs both develop AND do CS towards the players, is hire a few (2? 4?) new employees whose sole job is to be an intermediate between the players and the developers. That would free more time for the coders to work on game content, rather than struggling to get official proposals and stuff done to give to the players.


I don't really have a conclusion to this, I just hope it makes some sense.


~Mirsathia

[Pharcellus]

Well, that's not been evidenced at all in my reading here.

Try going back to the beginning of this thread and R_E_A_D_I_N_G it. There's several posts on the first page that say the SAME THING.

Perhaps what you, personally, are looking for is an explanation regarding the change, and I know that's what Kit's explained specifically here that she(he?) wants, also. The people I'm aiming at aren't people like you--I'd like an explanation too, just for closure on this ******** thing.

What I personally want, I have already summed up in SEVERAL of my posts, none of which you seem to have actually read. You're not aiming at anyone in particular in your posts; you're simply coming in and shotgun-blasting the room.

The people I'm aiming this at are the people who are saying, "The ONLY acceptable response by the Devs is to return the model. No reasoning will satisfy us.

Then address them specifically. As far as I am concerned, if the devs fail to provide an adequate explanation, then I reiterate my request to put the models back like they were. I'm not going to accept any vague, spun, garbage answers. I want specific details and hard data that I can independently verify myself. More of the same crap that was spewed forth in a recent dev chat on the subject will NOT suffice AT ALL.

On the one hand.... They're doing stellar, stellar work for just how few devs they have hired. What is it, ten total? Less, a bit more? These poor guys get so much less credit than they deserve. They worked as hard as they could to get the ARoP out, and now they're pulling long shifts trying to finish Lairs, and the Lairshaping school, for us. And what thanks do they get? "Ancients are NERFED! (What?) Lairshaping is NERFED! (It's not even out!) Models were NERFED! (Okay, no explanation forthcoming there, but still)"

Simple answer: They aren't doing work, they are expending effort. Work is the realization of effort. If effort is not realized, then it is wasted. ARoP as an example; LOTS of time and effort went into crafting this wonderful(?) series of quests, strung together in epic fashion. Then, when it was realized, they screwed up several key pieces of it, wasting the effort. Thus, effectively, little or no work was performed. Let me repeat that: LOTS of effort was expended, but LITTLE work was performed, because the RESULTS of said effort were poor.

To help understand this concept, think of felling a tree. You can walk up to a tree, push on it, beat it with your fists, kick it, and completely expend yourself on it, and it will not fall. LOTS of effort expended, NO work performed. Then, you get a tool and a tactic, chop the tree down, and it falls the wrong way onto your neighbor's house. LOTS of effort expended, SOME work performed, MORE work created. Finally, you have the situation where you improve your tactic and belay the tree, notch it with a chainsaw, cut it, and it falls perfectly where you intended it to. LOTS of effort expended, MUCH work performed.

The concept is similar to the physics equation Work = Force times Distance, where the actual work produced by an action is equal to the amount of effort expended, scaled by the results achieved.

Where's the gratitude that they're getting?

$12.95 per month x 3, in my case.

Is there any, here, on these boards? I haven't seen much, and that hurts them as much or more than it hurts my sense of pride as a dragon player. We sound, on the whole, like ungrateful brats.

When they do something that goes above and beyond what I expect for my money, I am happy to give them additional accolades, and I have. It's not a real common occurrence, because I so rarely feel like I am getting "more for my money".

I have a private rapport with some of the devs, and express myself individually with them, usually cutting them a lot more slack, BECAUSE they talk with me as a person, and don't treat me as just another subscription number. While the relationship I have with them is more of a personal nature than a business one, the upshot is that GOOD CUSTOMER RELATIONS goes a LONG way to defusing anger, frustration, ennui, etc. They know this. They have been TOLD this time and time again. Yet, here we are, 10 threads and a couple hundred posts later, with everyone getting more and more bitter about it as the days go on without a response.

Morale is an important factor in any organization. Low pay, long hours, poor working conditions, no appreciation from superiors, friction from peers and subordinates, all make for a poor environment where morale is in the toilet a great majority of the time.

The thing is, they could SO EASILY get a HUGE morale boost from their customers, if they would just practice some good, basic customer relations. It really does not take that much to get a playerbase that is stellar and constantly gives you support, and cuts you tons of slack, without you ever having to ask. I've seen it happen with an otherwise lousy game developer and game product.

I don't think anyone has call to classify me as an "ungrateful brat". I pay my money; they eat. If they want a good tip, they better bust their arses and make me happier than I am with just basic table service.

...On the other hand, Tulga is doing a pretty low job of communication as to what they're doing, and why. What they need to do, rather than making the devs both develop AND do CS towards the players, is hire a few (2? 4?) new employees whose sole job is to be an intermediate between the players and the developers. That would free more time for the coders to work on game content, rather than struggling to get official proposals and stuff done to give to the players.

They tried this already with Gale Rellian. Gale was so hobbled by both an unclear job description and conflicting management mandates that he was beyond useless. For the record, I have NO issues with Gale, as I know that his hands were completely tied. The most responsible person for his dismal failure as a CM is, again, David Bowman. Thus, they will have to do more than just hire a much of PR lackeys and mouthpieces. They need to hire someone with charisma; someone who isn't afraid to roll up his sleeves, let his hair down, and get "into it" with the playerbase. They need to give him nearly unlimited power to get the information he needs to do his job, and they need to all cooperate with him to make effective communication with the playerbase about all aspects of the game possible.

[Stalker_ice]

hellooo helloooooooooo ;)

whats this about a new ancient model? the old one was cool,
does anyone have a screenshot they can share of the new one ;)

oh btw hi everyone :)

[Kitimandiri]

Its the old model shrunk 15%.