Petition to rescind the Pawnbroker Nerf

[Aamer Khan]

Ok ... Deth, please explain how it hurts the lvl 1 - lvl 50's?

How much money can they make a day before as opposed to now?

If others now start charging for crafted items, how will that in of itself hurt them?

[Rover]

The insults in this thread are getting out of hand.Further infractionswill not be tolerated.


Be seeing you...

[TheRock]

Grim, you always seem to want it all fixed in one fell swoop. That's just not possible.

Give it time pal. SEE what happens first. And realize the only ones who MUST get "it" are the Devs, it's their game after all... we just play here [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

The problem i see here is that past experience tells us that it will probably take a long time and we will be complaining for months. Either for a fix or for something new to work with this change. Maybe this change should have waited until they had other things that work with it.
If it is their game and we only play it then maybe they will be the only ones left here :)
I though we were the ones who should be getting "it" ? They made the game for us to like and pay for, right?

[Deth]

Ok ... Deth, please explain how it hurts the lvl 1 - lvl 50's?

How much money can they make a day before as opposed to now?

If others now start charging for crafted items, how will that in of itself hurt them?

It's the not being able to pawn off thier hunted junk loot with out the possability of porting 0-3 times. when as most agree money is short. I for one have never seen or heard of some one sub 50 doing pawn runs. Or if they have I do not think it hurts anyone that baddly. Mybe I am looking at it diffrently from you guys but I see the problem as a post 50 and realy post 75-80 problem. Before then most people are grinding away at xp and just deconstruct/make for the xp after about 75-80 it can be worth while to craft and sale for Xp and coin.

It is also ,for me when I am a hunter point of view, much more convient to run to the nearest pawn broker when I am hunting to sale and head back to hunt. I know I am strange in that I loot all the junk loot even now at Adv 92Craft 100. The portal fees if I have to use them will eat into what little profets I get from that.

Charging is not a bad thing. But the BIG question isWHO are you going to charge?As much as I wish thier are only so many people in the game. As a Dragon, and no do not even start thinking this is a dragon vs biped thing for me. It is what I play and know, all dragons have some levels of crafter, the very same class of crafter as me. You have to have at least 30 crafter to grow to adult so thier goes that market. 30-60 you may find someone who just hates crafting as a dragon and sale a set of scales to but most will keep doing and get the techs for this range that they at least will use. 60+ you start getting into droped techs so a little more saleablity there. But if your in any kind of guild you have at least one person who loves to craft and if you hunt up the supplies for this person and help them make thier own scales why pay anyone?

The same can apply to Bipeds, but with them there are more classes to train so unless you love crafting you will not have every craft class you need. You then also have hand me downs. Both scales and biped gear.

So again WHO does anyone sell to? Every set of scales I make puts me that much closer to being out of a job.

If people where turning over more or every class had some items that were one use It would make it easy. Once again I agree with the idea but just not how it was done. I think if you take a step back and look most agree that it is needed just the way they did it is not good.

[Gordok]

Wow. Here's some facts to chew on as everyone seems to love to pick something to blame for all the games woes then crush it without talkingto the majority.

Fact the pb became a "problem" as will blights next AFTER they introduced T-5. Why? Because the tiering of reward to effort takes a misguided LEAP once you hit T-5 not because it's there. it's allways been there just the coin earned was'nt so high.

Fact the pb was the ONLY reason builders at the begining were payed anything close to realistic prices as it kept a check in place for all crafts and what they charged for their effort as apposed to adventuring and their prices for comps/forms.

Fact there are currently as many PLAYERS out there in the market for T1-4 crafted items as there are for forms, just ask Baldarou.

Fact this change forces players into certain class types destroying the old HZ philosophy of pick what's fun and enjoy if they want to earn enough for a plot without playing for a year first.

Fact the PB has never been the problem but supply(lots of) and demand( Not enough of) are if your talking player economy.

Fact yes PB's were put there as an alternative means of coin no matter how certain of you want to deny that fact this is not and has never been an "exploit" but instead was there to stabalize the economy when there was one to stabalize and to give every type of player(ie the solitary ones) a means of earning coin. It only got out of wack when for what ever reason they made T-5 worth so much. All they had to do was lower the return on T4 and T5 and this imagined problem would of gone away and blights would be the next reason there is no economy because for godsake it defenetly has nothing to do with the crafting system......

All you did HZ was take the only means of certain classes of players to be able to buy the plot of their dreams, or for a pure crafter to be able to afford the prices on comps. Lower the return and make it take longer for the HIGHER tiers as the lower ones are fine if you really want to try and make it take longer to buy a plot.
The people with money will still make stuff for cheap or free and the people without will still have their consigned items returned to them in their vault. Once again you missed the bullseye completely alienating certain people and as allways with 0 comunication unless you're in IRC.

Myself I'm very much not surprised by this change and dont think it does'nt mean much more of the same down the line allways with promises of this "magic" balance that if you wait around long enough you might get to experience and ofcourse with zero communication.

[Theolaerynn]

I honestly believe that the majority of the folks supporting this change are folks who have already used the PB method, and recognize quite clearly how much of an advantage they have been given by this change. Suddenly their wealth has value again, and in such a way as to guarantee they will remain wealthy while the rest have no avenue to compete.

I personally cannot deal with the PB grind, although I did do it to fund forms and to get about a gold and a half in an attempt at getting a Lair. That was all I could stomache though, it is beyond painful for me. It becomes too much like a real job, and not at all entertaining.

I am a hunter, among other things, and that is what I enjoy. Crafting is not fun for me, although again, I ground out 100 levels of craft thinking it would help with Lairshaping. I knew I could never afford to have anyone else do the work for me, and my desire for a Lair is quite strong. It would have to be to grind gems, even for a pittance that 1.5G has become.

The point is, I don't even like to do the PB grind, so this really doesn't affect me much. I give away anything of value that I get while hunting, and I don't farm critters for cash. The accumulation of wealth is just not entertaining to me.

But when folks happily take advantage of a game feature (I will leave the discussion of what features are exploits to people that enjoy those kinds of symantics), and then once they have met their goals they push to have the feature nerfed (or rise up to oppose anyone who tries to get the nerf re-evaluated), well I just can't help feeling there is some serious hypocrisy going on and that these folks aren't nearly as interested in the health of the game as they would have people believe.

You really want to fix the Istarian economy? What say once the auctions are over, we just set everyones cash to 500s across the board. Sure, that will give some folks a huge hand up, and that will slap down a number of folks who have made money 'honestly'. But hey, all in the name of the greater good, right? Makes as much sense as the PB 'fix', and would have a much bigger impact than just nerfing the PB alone. Once everyone is on an even playing field and cash-producing features are adjusted (like the PB fix), we can all rest easier knowing that the economy is 'as intended'. Of course, Horizons would be a ghost town, but that seems to be of little concern to the developers anyway. I mean, look how well they have done so far...

[Thamoris]

I think it's a great idea and makes perfect sense. Supply and demand is the very foundation of a free market. I can't count how many times I have tried to shop at the consignments only to be disappointed by the lack of selection. I think this change will encourage the crafters to try harder to market their goods. They will try harder to find that niche market. It won't be as easy for the crafter types to make massive amounts of coin anymore. I don't want my games to be easy..what fun is that? The ripple effect of this change will cause the crafter types to rely more on the adventure types for those rare comps and techniques. The way it is now...nobody can sell anything on cosignment because none bother to shop the consignment. They don't shop the consignment because their is seldom anything on the consignment. It's a viscious cirlcle that I think will be broken with this change.
The player base is there...several thousand people play on Chaos daily. Several thousand daily players is enough poeople to create a healthy economy. Simply take any one of thousands of small towns in America and use them as an example. They still have stores...they have an economy...perhaps not a New York City type economy, but many small towns have numerous healthy business. One could even think of this change as removing the Walmart from one of these small towns. The pawnbrokers have been the Walmart of Horizons in respects to how it has damaged the local traders business. Good move Tulga...keep up the good work !!

[Kulamata]

In all honesty, if it were an exploit, or an abuse to craft and sell to PB, the devs have had two years to notice. It was part of the original intent. And over time, they adjusted the prices the PB's paid for those items that received more C than other items of that tier. This is no oversight correction.

It is part of the plan that DB announced in a couple of interviews to slow the game down.

I think that as a policy it is totally misguided.

Remarksthat these changes (like the alloy mith) willsomeday allowimprovements to gameplay have not been amplified or made clear. Saying that the devs know better than the players what will benefit the game, is to talk about the people who brought us Hoard Leak and several other disasters.They do NOT always know what's best for the game, or even always how to keep players. Remember that the greatest exodus took place after the massive merge nerf package.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

While I agree with the change I don't agree with the limits (now that I know them). The limits are far too severe for the populace sizes. Many people use the same PBs and the ratio of chance that many of those people will be pawning the same items is fairly high. While,"tough luck" would be in order for those not quick enough to get to the same PB with the same item with the current lag in the game and much of it generated by portalling excessively, I don't see finding a PB to sell to as a fun prospect.

So, I'm not going to ask for the change to be removed but rather ask that the limits be adjusted to accomodate the average populace between the three main shards; Chaos, Order, and Unity.

For example.. The current limits look like this...

3000 - processed/raw resources
300 - stackables
25 - non stackables (although I feel this one in particular is extremely severe since most items in the game don't stack)

Multiply those numbers by the average populace (random number) of 100 and you'd get...

300,000
3000
2500

per PB. If those numbers seem too large cut it in half. But the numbers need adjusting upwards in some fashion to accomodate populace sizes. Because once the games populace grows, it will be nigh-impossible for anyone but the major PB farmers to get money off the PBs.


What would ULTIMATELY solve this entire problem for people would be to set an individual limit per character. Then someone elses pawnings would not affect another persons pawnings and everyone would have the same limits. But again, the limits would beed at least a bit of adjusting because then it wouldn't matter which PB you went to, once you met your limit, you've met it. End of story. Can't pawn anything else for money until some of your items have fallen off your limit table. But at least the limits would not need as much adjusting as they will with the current system.

[Jayne]

The change makes perfect sense to me. I don't think I have to explain how a pawnbroker works.

Jayne

[Icabald Percival dragon]

*Crestfallen and Dismayed*

I can't earn a little cash from the Pawn Broker any longer???? *Wails* I will endeavor to philosophical about all this, but I also petition for this to be removed.

I have been playing this game -- like many -- for 2 years now and I am shocked to realize that Horizons was supposed to be a tutorial for Suzie Orman's Money 101! I did not know that one of the system requirements was to possess an MBA OR to have the burning desire to be an Entrepreneur! Shards! I am a 3-time dropout from AMWAY, for crying out loud. I have absolutely zero desire to be involved in the "economy of the game". That is why I and others are part of a guild -- so that we can help out one another.

I play this game to ESCAPE from the harsh realities of Real Life for a couple of hours a week. Up until now, it has been my comfort and refuge. But, this -- coupled with the change to crafting experience gains -- has already made my time in Istaria more pain that it is worth. I am looking for a great escape with great friends and allies -- not the tedium and grind of thankless work!

Thank you devs for diminishing the joy of being an Ancient who is able to shape a lair with these two changes. With one hand you give and the other you take away. I do NOT like crafting -- here or there! I do not like crafting anywhere! I do not like it, Sam-I-am!

*flies off to El Nasty to sulk by the waterfall*

Icabald Percival Dragon

[Dragoniade]

item decay IS coming, people. It's already been stated
that T6 items will decay.

EVERY tiers of items should decay. Not only Tier 6.

Why should a crafter wait to be level 100 to be able to make money?
Let every player start spending money on maintaining their weapon fighthig monster, would it be from the bronze golem to the Tarbantine golems.

[Kitimandiri]

But ******** if I'm not tired of hearing people screaming about how the sky is falling when it's clearly still right up where it always has been.

Amen [:P]

[Akuluxtraxas]

needed change,poorly implemented, unevenly implemented and overall more harmful than helpful based on these facts.

Thats all i will say but extremely poor judgement and implementation of a needed fix. Its always come down to how adjustments are put in a game. this hurts pure crafters and gives Adventurers a big boost.

Also note the farming in Istaria will soon multiply so let their be competition at the blights and the like!

[Dragoniade]

needed change,poorly implemented, unevenly implemented and overall more harmful than helpful based on these facts.

Thats all i will say but extremely poor judgement and implementation of a needed fix. Its always come down to how adjustments are put in a game. this hurts pure crafters and gives Adventurers a big boost.

Also note the farming in Istaria will soon multiply so let their be competition at the blights and the like!

Yes. But rather than fix the scale by removing stuff from both plates, they take a huge load from one side and create another imbalance.

That fix was perhaps needed, but they should have done it equaly between adventuring and crafting.

Or put something for crafting to actually make money. Now with pawn gone, what's left?

Selling an item to someone who will have it for the rest of the game? Selling right now, is a one strike deal. Until some sort of decay, there's no way for a crafter to get better.

Imagine adventuring where each character would only be allower to kill 200 mobs per tier, and share all the named. Once the named is killed, it's out of the game.

That's the current issues for crafters. You get to craft an item to someone, and you have to wait until that player reach another tier. And if someone else give that player his crafter item, well, you lost it. Item sale don't respawn. Item don't degrade which force the player to get another one.

Sale are to crafters what monsters are to adventurer. There are an unlimited number of monsters over time. There is only a limited number of sale for crafters.

The only crafter which won't be impacted by this nerf are the consumable crafter: Alchemist and such. Those item decay by definition. You use it, you lose it, and need to buy another one. As for the other schools, you give the player his tool, armor, sword or construction unit, then he's done. Though with construction, there is a demand sometime. But not always, especially with the all the crafting nerf that are on it's way (Xp decrease, cash, etc).

TG should plan their nerf twice, and announce them before rushing them. Lately, too many nerf or stealth change has been thrown at our face.

[Foxfire]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Henry Redacre wrote:
But ******** if I'm not tired of hearing people screaming about how the sky is falling when it's clearly still right up where it always has been.


Amen [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

Oh please. Most of us haven't been saying the sky is falling, although clearly the color of the sky is changed when game mechanics change.

We're saying, and listen very closely: We do NOT like it.

Don't tell me what's good for me, or what's fun for me, or what I have to like, or what I'm allowed to complain about or not (since I apparently have to worry about your being tired of folks discussing what they like and dislike in a game).

I'll keep playing for other reasons, and see if this change was "Good for me" in some way. But I am completely unconvinced, and in the absence of some new convincing not mentioned here, still want it rescinded. Just my vote, if I have a say.

[Zvah]

For the record, ive never felt the need to grind the pb, ive made all my gold by selling to other players. And i do agree with this change, however i disagree with the timing. There should be steps taken to soften the blow before the blow is dealt imo.

I think that there should be a new NPC in game, sort of the opposite of the surplus delealers that will pay crafters to make needed items for the Empire, teched or unteched. For example maybe pay 100cp per fine bronze maul, up to say 5 mauls, this will give crafters something to get coin from other then grinding out the easy resources. Heck could even modify the trainers to do this and even give a little xp for each quest completed, then after 5 times, the money and xp drop. just a thought, heres hoping for a stable economy.

[Big`Gruff Beard]

This is a solution for the game but not the player base.[:(]

The Dev's didn't anticipate PB exploit? They didn't anticipate the game being merged and almost dieing either, remember that little companythat dropped us off?[:@]

So what did they expect?[:^)]

For folks to not "knee Jerk" to the Nadia problem? Isn't that what the farming suggestion is?[:S]

So, remove Nadia, or leave her for a last minute item needed give her 5 of each item and not let it come back for an hour.

Give better drops for items, Give us back the ability to consign items, and/or gather them easier. With increasing the drops (blue Vexators?) Then the ecconomy can balance in that way.[:D]

Make Nadia the never ending source of coin, instead of a vacuum.
Have her pay coin for completing a certain amount of kills, or pay us for the items we can give her.

Trophies are a great tool, (and good coin you all forgot that exploit or I missed it). Why can't Nadia or Town Marshalls do that also? This can also add content for the game.

Make the Vielo handle tier'd quests, there is an unruley amount of'em for cryin' out loud.

I feel very confident that when the dev's read us suggesting "farming" PB's they cringe.

You can't tell me the dev's intend for the inhabitents of Istaria to form lines outside the PB's the way folks line up for named monster?[^o)]

Hey, lets cause more anger and greed in the game.[8o|] Lets have some constructive suggestions for additional change instead offlaming on each other.[:#]

Can't we all just get along?[;)]

[Goriax]

Funny how people for months have complained that the economy is broken -- and then go back to farming crap and ignoring any request from people who want them to actually MAKE something for them. And wouldn't dream of putting crafted items on a connie for people to buy.

They'll need to do many things to make the economy active. But one of them is to have player interdependence. That's not going to happen when the pawn broker is the best source of cash in the game.

[Tzaphnil]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Helcat wrote: item decay IS coming, people. It's already been stated
that T6 items will decay.
Oh, Yay. Now, not only will I not be able to make coin unless I've got a couple hours on my hands and am a high enough level adventurer to farm the blights, Now, thanks to decay, when I actually DO go out to kill things, I'll have to spend a week afterwards doinga new version of thePB grind and waiting in line to sell things so that I canafford to buymore of the Same Items I already bought.
OR! I can take the time to run around doing the Alloy Dance, killing the Same Things I did last week for tech items (If my armor can hold up to it), or buy them at Outrageous prices from Nadia. Superb.
So, now, this game is turning into a mirror of the last game I came from, in which Money was Beyond Scarce (unless you paid actual cash for it, real hard money to get game money), crafting was a pain, and it took hours to get from one point to another (due to lag in this game, instead of the insanse traveltime it took to walk from one point to another).
Allow me to reiterate, I am wholly in support of the removal of this Nerf, I'm only a HighT2/low T3 Dragon Crafter, and I can already see that this game is becoming little different from my RL, in which I spend most of my time doing too much work for too little pay, and getting nearly no time to get what I want to do, done.