Petition to rescind the Pawnbroker Nerf

[Helcat]

well, that's your right to do as you wish.

But I don't agree that those of us supporting the Dev's
decision are doing it out of "vehemence and disrespect."

[Flindar]

although i hate to admit it i have to agree with Kumu.... the change is to little to late and needed to be done with other things that would "kickstart" the economy back to life

It does seem a last ditch effort and not a fix at all to the problems.

I can see the need for change but the way it was done was intentionally sneaky.

Also Ssilmath is a very wise sslik and has some good ideas that i can agree with.

[Tryagain]

If there was even a paragraph displaying a complete lack of understanding of how the game works, that was it. You know how many mobs its possible to kill at once in Horizons. You saw that while getting PL'd during your brief return. Yeah the drop rates suck for single target killing, especially for single classed people, new people leveling up etc. But this sort of change would just rampantly reward mob farming, even more so then its already rewarded.

Umm no... its common sense.

There were two ways to make money in horizons before the PB change.

1) Yes grinding the Pawnbroker. Contrary to popular belief there was nothing easy about it or shall I say nothing at all fun about it. It was perhaps one of the most boring part of an MMO I have ever experienced. So I guess they addressed this huh ?

2) Going out to the blighted areas or any area and rounding up oh about .... 20 to 30 mobs and mass killing them in oh about 1 minute or less. But this can only be done if you have 2 or 3 adventurer classes at 100 and it has to be the right classes as well. Easy enough for some of the titans I saw walking around. Was never easy for me nor did I expect it to be. But I was stuck killing one or two mobs if I wanted to earn coin adventuring wise. Which I can tell you was a hell of a lot more boring than grinding pawnbrokers.

ok... lets give the die hard fantypes something else cause they will whine if I don't mention it...

3) Selling to and trading with other players and engaging the economy that bowman had always wanted... HECK yeah I am all for that.....

except it doesn't happen anymore and hasen't for a long time. Marketplace channel consists of chatting socially or acting like a twit. Once in awhile someone offers a I'm cleaning out my bank sale or some rare drop for the game. But those are far and few between. Even more rare is the request for a piece of equipment... or some new player struggling to find what they need. Yes this should happen but doesn't because there arent numbers enough to support a player interdependant game. This is how I earned all my coin in the first few months after release. March 2004 to the time I quit the first time around July 2004 I had to make my coin via pawnbroker runs. No I didn't like it but saw no other alternative as a crafter to make coin since consignment sales and player trading had come to a virtual standstill.

Oh and why don't you ask one of Chaos's more famous personalities how he buys all those forms for his guild ? Stand up guy he is and a shining example of what the horizons community can be( you know who I am refering too ). But ask him... it isn't via consignment sales or taking orders. it is because he can go out to the blighted areas and mass kill mobs. He knows the area and he knows the tricks and is the blessed of the blessed in taking down the best the game has to offer. Thats how he gets the cash to buy those forms... he also grinds the pawnbroker. Or at least used to when I was last there.

So what ok I guess some joker can go and drag his slow arse disc around and load up his vault with items to sell to the PB. He can visit many PB's... port to another community and rinse and repeat. Slows him down huh ? yeah also frustrates him because of the still insane portal times in game. Yet another device to support yet more porting in a game that can't take it. Not to mention adds a serious grind factor to a game that is king of the grind already. So I guess thats fine... till he cancels his account. I know for sure they can't afford to lose any accounts.

So heck yeah I would love horizons to be this player interdependant ... but its simple math. There AREN'T enough people. A more gradual change was needed. Along with oh and yes increasing the drops for those that aren't Multiclassed titans. Cause adventuring the NON MC titan way ... is tedious and looting corpses most often than not an utter disappointment even with the intro of new crystals.

So what is Tulga going to do ? There are many other better ways to stimulate the economy and make PB's a non fundamental source of income. This implementation was pure laziness. At least they could have gradually changed things. Or incorporated this change with other ways to legitmately increase one's purse so they can oh buy a plot. Easy enough for you old timers.....

So no PJ just because I could not personally lead SOG around and almost solo him does not mean all those times I watched my guild mates drop butt loads of mobs that I did not absorb the fact that yes farming is an issue. Try to think of it without your 5 ot 6 level 100 classes under your belt and see if from the standpoint of someone with 1 or no level 100 classes. In fact make yourself a new character and see if you can play the game with no twinkage and no hand me down coin ;) . Better yet try it with no PL'ing... but I guess that made me weak huh ? Guess it does virtually every other person in the game as well ;) .

But I guess we shall wait and see. Cause its obvious to me that some around here are more in touch with the devs than just about everyone. If other changes are coming I might have made them in conjunction with a radical nerf like the PB as is now. Certainly would have been a lot less painful.

[Tryagain]

One other thing...

I hope the change does work. For the sky is hardly falling and no one said it was. That was just drama queening by the changes supporters.

But I doubt it will, not at least till the nightly numbers go up 3 or 4 times what they are now. Than you would have a fine balance between crafting and adventuring and a player based economy that works. But I just don't see it happening.

Why ? cause in order for this to work Horizons needs a strong hardcore type adventuring community. Cause well adventurers would adventure and give orders to crafters for crafters to craft for a charge. Now however there are too many people that can do both. Its part of the multiclassing that is a curse, it may be nice and all but this is its darkside. As well I'm sorry but there are simply too many other games that knock the socks off of Horizons in the adventuring aspect for this to ever happen.

But its still a....

Waiting game...

[PJ]

Believe me, I've got alts (ones that aren't twinked). I know the drop rates for killing single mobs at a time suck. I mentioned that in my post. I said its hard for single classed/new people. But the math is simple

If a new player kills 10 mobs in 10 minutes (1 at a time)and loots 1 form, 1 tech, 1 moneybag (~3s), 1 tech comp, and 2 trophies.

You want to double tripple the drop rates? so that they get 3 forms, 3 techs, 3 money bags (~9s), 3 tech comps, 6 trophies?


Then in the meantime a farmer comes along and pulls and kills100+ mobs in those 10 minutes. They'll loot 30+forms, 30+ techs, 30+money bags (90+s), 30+ tech comps, 60+ trophies.

If you scale up the drop rates, you scale up the reward for the single classer/new player/1 mob at a time killer. But you also scale up the reward for farming. Hopefully I'm not the only one who thinks that's insane.

Believe me, They need to do something to help the reward for effort of single class hunters, but do so in a manner that does notgrossly up the reward for farmers. Here's an example. http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=68224
The jyst of the example being that you increase the loot drops, but you slash the number of mobs that are spawned at once, which would limit the farmer's reward, given that the #of mobs in the field is the only real limit on how many mobs that they can kill at once.

[Sen of Order]

When dragging a disk, it is a bit more than just (4*highest level). I don't do it often, and it isn't a large amount, but there is more.

[Sen of Order]

Helcat, I've not read every post. Call me crazy, but I found this thread at page 6, and only covered teh first before I saw the trend. Remember, I said "virtually". This leaves room for the very few that are not swept by emotions.

Just to let you all know a little about myself.

I am 100 Battlemage/48 Mage/26 Cleric. I AM one of those single-kill players.

I am 100 Blacksmith/Carpenter/Fitter/Mason/96 Spellcrafter/56 Weaver/50 Enchanter. So are a whole LOT of others, so there is virtually no call for me to go hunting construction work. Sure, I get an odd job now and then, but a rare percentage of those actually pay, the majority being for guild and friends, but then, they also do things for me for free as well.

I am working on Jeweler now, just got to 81. I don't see that as being a coin-source either, because I know I'm a johnny-come-lately with that as well. That, and the fact that jewelry (as well as spells) are pretty much a single-purchase item.

I'm also working on Alchemist. I'm at lvl 60 there. I see this as being the "big" one, since people always will need more potions. One problem though, everyone else will probably be an Alchemist of higher level in far shorter of a time than I.

Have I been working at this for a year? No. A few months? No. Did I get these levels in just a few weeks like I've heard others claiming and boasting about? Nope. I've been at this since Dec 10, 2003. I've had over 1g only twice. First time when I sold my built plot in Drift Point, and recently due to coin pile up, but one session with Nadia put me back down to 150s. That was a month ago. I'm back to 400s now. Yeah me.

[Bori Grimbattle]

I wish to reiterate something here. The change in itself MAY be warranted but NOT in the way they propose. They have to look at the complete picture and not just yank one thing and wait for the rest to follow. Too many will be put off by that wait.

One other thing, I noticed someone mention that all they found on the PBs are forms. Perhaps, to be fair about it, a limit on the number of forms a PB buys, as well as other adventure loot would be warranted?

After all what is good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

[imported_tjl]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]tjl wrote:one more hypothetical (numbers are made up):

so I make 9,000 purfied shining essense orbs, and silo them. I disk 3000 to pawn A, 3000 to pawn B, and 3000 to pawn C. it takes a little more time, but takes the same amount of "thought". and each of them will pay me the full amount currenly allowed. 9,000 is a lot too, more than I could ever make in a week given my play schedule.

6k is more reasonable for me. I just need to find 2 pawnbrokers out there that don't have purfied shinings on them, and given how there are scores of pawnbrokers (a player even have 3 pawns on their plot now just for this purpose, locked of course) the exploiting will continue anew.




It doesn't quite work out that way. Because prices are automatically adjusted for selling large stacks at once (so that selling 3000 at once gets the same amount of money as selling 1000 to him in 3 seperate trades). You could sell 3000 in one day to 1 pb. Although you would receive the least $/resource. Alternatively you could split those 3000 between 2 pawnbrokers. You'd have to port to another town, or find another pb in the same town, but you'd get more $/resource. You'd get even more $/resource if you visited 3 pb's or 4 or 5. Its up to you to decide how to balance it out.

right. so what has this change fixed really? it just forces the people who grind and pawn to A) build a couple more pawns on their plot, B) port a few extra more times, or C) do both. and they will gain virtually the same reward as before this change... but now there is an added wrinkle that people who ARE NOT using pawnbrokers this way will be inconvenienced. thats why i am against this change. it does not address the real problem.

[imported_Ssilmath]

right. so what has this change fixed really? it just forces the people who grind and pawn to A) build a couple more pawns on their plot, B) port a few extra more times, or C) do both. and they will gain virtually the same reward as before this change... but now there is an added wrinkle that people who ARE NOT using pawnbrokers this way will be inconvenienced. thats why i am against this change. it does not address the real problem.

I have a solution to this, it's quite simple really

Set the item limit lower per day
Keep track of how many of each type (Resource, stackable, nonstackable) each PLAYER has pawned that day
Now, each person can pawn 1000 Mithril bars per day, on all pawnbrokers gamewide

Solves the problem of PB farming, solves the problem of people who don't PB farm getting screwed...

[Aamer Khan]

Actually it that is still PB farming.

Things like this have to happen to improve the overall game for everyone.

Just drop the idea of the PB as being your main way of getting money and you also "solve" the problem...

Simple huh?

[Nayuaka]

Yeah. But for a crafter how are there other ways? I'm all for living off other players but the economy(or lack there of) does not support it at this time.

[imported_tjl]

I have a solution to this, it's quite simple really

Set the item limit lower per day
Keep track of how many of each type (Resource, stackable, nonstackable) each PLAYER has pawned that day
Now, each person can pawn 1000 Mithril bars per day, on all pawnbrokers gamewide

Solves the problem of PB farming, solves the problem of people who don't PB farm getting screwed...

Yep, my post above had an idea like this. this solution (which probably took us a few minutes to work out) is far better than what the devs have just implemented. scary thought huh?

[HAG]

Yep, my post above had an idea like this. this solution (which probably took us a few minutes to work out) is far better than what the devs have just implemented. scary thought huh?

And in a few seconds i have found a workaround for your "solution". Scary thought huh?

Just put the stuff in a silo and let your 4 (or more) alts sell the stuff to avoid that cap.

[Pharcellus]

real mature of you Malto...

you're beginning to become predictable when losing your arguments.

That's the best you can come up with as a response?

I'm losing just because you say so?

Wow. Just wow. [*-)]

[Pharcellus]

What the hell do you need money for in this game anyway? [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

Lairs/Plots.

Being a Dragon, you'd think that would be the first thing that would come to mind. [;)]

[Pharcellus]

During all 6 pages of this thread, all I have seen is a bug of morons saying you can't make money anymore. Have any of you tried the pawnbroker? Have you seen how much cash you can still make?

My point has been that it is a good change WITH other changes, NOT by itself. You're probably right, but the only thing it is adding right now is inconvenience. Now, I have to inventory Pawn brokers BEFORE I go out and make something, and hope to hell someone else doesn't come along and play the ones I just inventoried out before I get back with my products.

OK, fine, so we've added nuisance value to pawning. Where's the balance for the adventuring side of the equation? I don't want to hear "it's coming", because frankly, I've heard that far more than enough. Piecemealing the change leaves an imbalance for what *WILL* turn into a significant period of time. Adventurers don't have to pick and choose which mobs they will kill today based on what may or may not have coin, why should crafters? Where's the similar level of reward for effort?

[Pharcellus]

Actually it that is still PB farming.

Things like this have to happen to improve the overall game for everyone.

Yes, they do, but there is a right way to go about it, and a wrong way. This is the wrong way.

Just drop the idea of the PB as being your main way of getting money and you also "solve" the problem...

Simple huh?

That statement pretty much tells any dedicated crafter "I'm an adventurer; I got mine, screw you". That's the problem as I see it by most of the people supporting the change in this thread. You're adventurers (regardless of how many craft classes you have), and it doesn't affect you hardly at all. "No, it doesn't affect me because I don't grind to the PB". Precisely, you don't HAVE to. You also probably haven't done it, and don't realize how massively tediously boring it is. It's work. Now, nuisance has been added to work, and ONLY for ONE segment of the playerbase, while the rest of the playerbase rolls gleefully on in their exploits. How would you think people are going to respond to that?

Hardly a single one of you is stopping to consider other peoples' opinions on the matter. It's just "tough, you're wrong, you are losing the argument, etc".

Under that environment, the debate will rage on, and no one will gain any ground, least of all the devs.

[Peaches]

The insults are getting out of hand. Thread locked.