This game has turned to a Solo game or ...

[Nalrach]

This week, I realized how this game has turn to a solo game (or verry select grouping). Don't get me wrong this is not a rant, but just a confirmation of good thing that have bee lost and for people returning into the game , they must know.

Two old friends and ex-guildies return to the game after along abscence. And not thinking ahead, I say let's go hunt. With what I had to realized later would be a desastrous groupping, resulting inloosing good xp and adding DP for nothing.Yeap a bad grouping (rating 124, 90 and 69). Took me a while 2 death of the player with rating of 69, to warn them about the GROUP NERF rules that all mobs will gang up on the smallest characters in the group. We adjusted the tactics and were managing to keep him alive. Then the second thing I forgot was that the fact that the rating 124 would not get xp for the level 60-70 mobs, that meant that the two low level character would not get any xp either.

No mather what; it wasa long time since we went hunted toguetther, we decided to go hunt for fun (no xp) and picking on less target at the same time so we could keep them buzy at us and we could keep the low man alive.

I know I ranted about Tulga killing guild life with the GROUP NERF, but what I just want to remind people thinking of comming back to the game ... Be carefull, the hunt game has change, no more fun group where the tank be in front and the lower support class be in the back doing what they trained best ..keeping the tank alive and helping with general damage or buffs.

Talking with my friend and guildies, it made me realized why I choose to level a figthing class (in my case guardian), it was because as a healer/spirit's (a support class combination) I was useless and was not surviving the attack of mobs. Now if you want tobe successfull in hunt you need super duper protection or the ability to stun the mobs be fore it stun's you.

This is not a rant, but a sad wakeup call; The hunt has lost is initial appeal and fun.
>> The hunt was a social event's.

[Narkano]

Was written more like a rant but it is essentially quite true.

Group hunting with the new aggro and xp systems is no longer any fun at all. The one exception being multiclassed characters of roughly the samerating and the ones using healing or area of effect spellsalso wearingsome strong armor.

You can still be out hunting with friends butwithout getting any xp most of the timeas long as someone brings a multiclassed character along (that with a game thatrelies on multiclassing being nottoo rare an event). Otherwise you're in for much tougher opponents and as much more DPs for the smaller ones of your group that usually makes them giving up on thewhole hunt rather quickly.

The result is that I find myself hunting all alone most of the time or using my dragon, that can only be rating 100 by default. The only other choice beingto huntwith other multiclassed characters to get some tech resources for example but of course no xp.

Those measures regulating powerleveling also killedanynice hunting with all members of a group having fun and getting some xp along the way.

- Narkano

[Sparkinaranthus]

I'm afraid the original poster has hit the nail on the head. You hunt together to advance your character (i.e. gain levels). The rating xp nerf is now a huge disincentive to group with anyone not the same or lower rank as yourself. They never changed the XP to cap 120+ ranked characters to 120 when calculating other member's XP (even thought they mentioned in patch notes they would do this).

The "fix" to "prevent evil powerlevelling" has in fact, killed off grouping all too well. I've offered multiple times to assist lower levelled toons on their quests but nearly every time I get the same answer: Sorry, I'd like to have someone around my level so I get XP.

The situation right now is so "good" and "fixed" that the best way to "group" with a lower levelled toon is to stay out of his group and throw support spells on him. Its a sad, sad, sad situation that shouldn't exist, but AE/TG whipped out the nerfbat on grouping hard, making it a penalty.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

I really doo wish they could employ a means to "sidekick"/"exemplar" like what is done in CoH. Least then, the lower levels would get XP and be able to survive without the detriment of getting gang raped by the mobs being hunted. Then, higher levels could go help lower levels with mobs the lowbies rating, still be in the group, and the lowbie get XP.

I don't like forced grouping but I also don't like to see grouping being treated as a no no. The world is too open and the levels too diverse to allow the current grouping mechanics to be player friendly.

[imported_tjl]

unless the xp capping system is weighted differently at different levels... explain to me why I can hunt with people who are almost 70 ratings (seventy) above me, get decent xp, and have fun? I think the system is more than fair. Could i get more xp solo? yes way more xp, but I would miss out on the fun group socialization, and the safety it offers.

the days of being able to wipe out mobs way below your rating so a really low level in the group can xp are over. provided the highest person in the group is fighting challenging mobs, and the other members are of comparible rating... groups are fine.

the aggro changes do suck though. although the groups i have been in have yet to run into a huge problem with it.

[Narkano]

The point is you currently get NO to almost no xp with a far smaller difference in ratings so you have to find people matching your rating. Then also remember that this game relies on multiclassing. Your healer might be level 40 but rating 80. What about now?

Dragons are hit the worst. The are double-penalized since they always have their level = their rating. First they get less xp due to the rating of the highest group member probably being above to far above100 and second they get the smallest share of the xp total due to their low rating. Hunting T5 and T6 mobs with my 85th level dragon and 3-4 other multiclassed bipeds earned me about 2-4K xp per mob. So I am almost FORCED to hunt alone if I wanna reach some levels anytime soon, even if I did so rarely because I like groups. Everyone constantly keeps asking me if I really want to group up since as a dragon I am MUCH faster leveling alone. (Just for comparison: If I pull myself 3 Indestructable Fyakkis alone I get 45-50K xp per kill being almost as quick to finish those three and getting more than 10 times the xp).

... and if I am about hunting much more dangerous mobs with an experienced character there should me much I can learn to earn my experience.

- Narkano

[AA0]

If you guys were hunting 60-70 mobs with a 124, 90, and 69 party then you guys were playing way too cautious. True the mobs will run to the lowest member first, but with heals and damage its very easy to pull them off.

The group exp still does suck, its a solo game now where the best exp is alone or with another 1 or 2 people. Perhaps a nice big boost to the group bonus should be made to make up for the absolute rating killer. The group bonus has always been small, and no significant form of exp.

[Raeshlavik]

The view from the other end of the level spectrum looks something like this:

Now, realize the highest level I've attained in Horizons is 22nd with a dragon, so I'm not jaded yet. [;)]

Myself, level20 dragon, a level20 half giant warrior, and a level 36 druid decide to go try some level 30-33 golems. The warrior and I are in a group while the druid remains solo and we use guild chat to communicate...

If our druid friend worked double time to keep the two 20's and herselfalive for the five or so minutes it took for us to kill the golem, without touching it, I got about 1500 exp. What made this dangerous was that the MOB would turn on the druid pretty quick and after the second death point, she determined that she'd need to fight back...

Ok so now I pull the MOB to tag it, the warrior and I try to beat the stuffing out of it, and when it turns on the druid she fights back. Now the fight takes half the time and I get about 300 exp.

Now this assumes everything works perfectly... It didn't, and by the end of the two hours or so the druid had 5 death points, I had 7, and I think the warrior had 4.

But we had a lot of fun.

Now, granted,the warrior and Iwere tackling stuff way out of our league (if we hit it, it was for pitiful damage), but even if the warrior and I got the MOB mostly dead before the druid attacked, we got about a third of the total exp... Not that we were doing this for exp, we were having fun, but it does show how quickly a higher level character can drop the exp rate of a group.

We never did try having her actually 'in' the group... Maybe next time (after I sleep off all these death points). [:D]

[Kulamata]

I think the changes were made in some haste in response to a massive outcry from a few players; it did not envision the current circumstances, where a guild may have quite a few high level players, and a few new players, who do not have lower level guild mates to hunt with.

[FleshRoast]

I think the changes were made to prevent powerleveling, pure and simple.

You should not be able to take a high-level character and create another from it. Similiarly, I do not think that one person should be able to power-level another. Quickly creating a group of high level players can lead to a guild that overshadows a shard's population. When power leveling a person you believe will add to your loyalty base, it may be like elelcting a Supreme Court justice. You don't really know the player you just gave a lot of capability to. I think the "grind" of adventuring is needed to slow the above two potential detriments to the game.

I would suggest that group hunting is still a social endeavor, but that in this particular instance you have limited it. There is no reason that a group must be of the same guild. You limit the available player base selection for group hunting by doing this. My thinking here may be more from the fact that I play on Blight where the shard is more important to us than any particular guild.

I'd also point out that another aspect of "social hunting" is to get to know others not just in your guild, but the entire shard. We've had instances of misunderstandings between guilds that has caused some un-necessary friction, in my opinion. I'm not saying that more inter-guild mingling would have prevented it, but it might have reduced it or at least caused a bit more "pause and reflect" before thinking that someone has/is soing something out of character for or tothem.

Players much closer to the same level do not have the restrictions mentioned in this thread and they do get some sort of group bonus. You can still chat with friends or guildmates with the respective chat commands, though admittedly it may not be quite the same as "being" there.

[Goriax]

I think that if you're grouped with people almost twice your rating. Or worse, grouped with someone three or four times your rating, something is wrong. In EQ or EQ2 for example you would get NO experience unless the higher level ones mentored you in EQ2, in which case they would fight (and die) as if they were your level.

If there is a problem with a level 80 grouping with a level 90 then it needs to be looked at. If there is a problem with a level 20 grouping with a level 90 then, I see only a few alternatives. Either:

1. The level 20 gets NO experience. He sure isn't helping anything by being there after all.

2. The level 20 pays for the enhanced experience in some other way (such as far greater danger as it is now). Maybe not the best way to do it but better then letting him get free experience.

Alternatively, MAYBE if they pro rated the experience better, such that that if a level 20 groups with a level 90 and they kill a level 90 mob, that 20 doesn't get any more experience then if they killed a level 20 mob. However, that 20 wouldn't be making as much of a contribution as if he were grouped with another 20 killing level 20 mobs, so he probably deserves less. In fact, if he only got in proportion to his contribution he probably deserves nothing.

Some sort of mentoring system might be nice and it would be one way to let friends group together without it turning into an exploit. Mentoring (as EQ2 does it) causes the higher level players to be temporarily brought down to the level of the low level player they are mentoring. This includes character stats, item stats, damage, hit points, armor, resistances, available spells and abilities, basically everything. Then they really are fighting as low levels and should be treated as such and that would not be an exploit. It's even possible for the high level to get experience while mentoring, although it never seemed like much when I did it.

But grouping should not be a method of powerleveling.

My attitude is that if you want those levels, you bloody well better EARN those levels. Would be nice anyway.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Goriax, you have to remember these are HZ players you are talking to here. They want everything now and by golly, they want it easy. The group nerf doesn't nerf groups of like leveled people, it doesn't prevent high levels from grouping with lower, but it does make it so that a low level doesn't leech anymore. If a tank knows what he is doing, he can keep aggro pretty easily. Healers and nukers no longer can fling spell after spell and not have a worry, now they have to be tactical about it...

So rant all you want, the group nerf fixed powerleveling and the aggro nerf made things more challenging. Both were needed, both are implimented, and if you are mad cause your group got no XP for hunting mobs 1/2 the level of the highest level person and you pulled so many that the lowest level died a couple times...Sounds like your at fault, not the game.

And to all who say that this kills grouping just to have fun, why do you need XP to have fun? Either you are grouping with people way higher/lower for XP, or grouping for fun. You can have fun with no XP.

[Narkano]

Youcompletely missed the point Ssilmath. Plain and simple we're not speaking about an easy way for leveling a character.

The point is you're much better off alone than with a group. But please remember that this a multiplayer game. I for myself prefer to play it together with other players. That does not mean that I do not have any personal goals for my characters to accomplish. I would like to do that while having fun with other players, too. Currently you're penalized for grouping up with others.

We're also not speaking about a 90th level character powerleveling a 20th level character.

Horizons has multiclassed characters and we're looking at a character's rating not level. Just take a group of an averagelevel of 50. Then let the healer be also 50th levelbut rating 75 due to another class. Suddenly the whole group gets almost no XP any longer for 50th levelmobs. The healer isn't more powerful just because of his rating 75 so that the groupisnotable tosuddenly take on 75th level opponents.

Just an example. In fact with the low player base, a focus on crafting andratings ranging from 1 to 230+ you currently havequitea problem finding yourself a group at all not to mention a group of players with roughly the same rating.

And btw. Horizons has no pvp so levels are only for personal gain with absolutely no effect on other players.

And Ssilmath, could you pleaseexplain to me how a tank, who "knows what he is doing" currently "can keep aggro pretty easily" while he has healers and mages about in his group? ...

- Narkano

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Goriax, you have to remember these are HZ players you are talking to here. They want everything now and by golly, they want it easy.

Why is it you couldn't comment without adding your snide remark at the populace? Why can't this be a viable concern of the poster(s) without it being turned around to be seen as this? Are you TOTALLY incapable of seeing things from any other side but your own?!

Not a single person concerned about the current grouping mechanics has complained that you can't PL lowbies anymore. Looks to me that every single one of them 1) want to be able to group with their lower level guildmates/friends and everyone be able to get XP, 2) don't want to be penalized for grouping with someone even remotely higher or lower than them, and 3) want to see some incentive for grouping because atm there is absolutely none.

Now, this is what I'm gathering from what everyone concerned about this is posting (including myself). Some of us (Goriax and myself I can remember from the top of my head) have put forth alternate ideas on how to handle high level w/ low level grouping borrowed from other games. So I don't exactly see how the snide remark above is warranted nor applies.

[Shirewood]

I agree totally with you Snowdonia...

We don't want to PL.. we just want to be able to group with people again.


And It's quite obvious... the latest fix is keeping us from doing that :(


Thank God for good chat! :)


I'm 100% against how things are now.

[Nalrach]

Narkano , your rigth after re-reading it it does sound like a rant, but I was more intent it to be a call for a return of a certain social value ....

First and foremost .. yes pure power levelling is an evil, and their is ways to slow down the PL, if I remember well in DA0C and OU, their is a level cap per kill and no mather how big the mobs is, the most you get is the xp cap of your level that prime. I think was Tjl that was refeering to work on the xp capping.

We live in a society that goes from one extreme to the others, and that is in all things, we over correct our error and think it's a good fix. One thing that many tends now to forget; this is a MMPORG game and in the word their is a word that say "MASSIVE". Well a good way to ensure to have a group is to form group for hunting or social gathering. In the social gathering we do find to tools the guild and the discussion channels.

Let me insist on the guild aspect, the guild is there to help each others by passing knowledge and give a helping hand in many forms (hand's down, hunt partner, strong help when task are difficult, tutors). In the old days the guild social life was real fun, we used to organized a masive group, were the lower level would tag along learning from the expert and giving a helping hands where they could. Or who did not take a noobe out and show how to hunt or the good spot for his level, and keep a watchful eye while the new kids of the block learned. Today forget that if a lower level would like to tag along with the expert, he would die fast and like Narkano said .. "he will give up rather quickly"

THe GROUP NERF was important to help stop the power levelling that was going wild. But that was from a time where the game was dying and people had nothing to do but power level another character to try another race or class. Ssilmath from your point of view , yes the problem of power levelling was crushed. Was it really wrong or just annoying for some to see other powerlevelling when the could not. I'm not gonna change your mind some correction had to happend and Tulga choose the strong approach. Was it the best way to handle the issue, maybe at the time because so many cry injustice it was. But today was it the best solution, could they be less drastic solutions, probably their is which one is a good question. Their is two major consequences to the group nerf: the death of power levelling, and the death of a social gathering important in all mmporg game.

But today where we need to get new player interested, we need to bring back social life skill back in the game and one tools to help raise the social life and make the game a bit more interesting is guild activities, and that means a group hunts to thighten the ranks. See I'm a social player and knowing this game is strongly against grouping of different skill, and knowing that the player base is rather small, if I had quit the game and told me the way thing are and one of the most fun part of mmporg "guild hunt nigth" is dead, I would not return to the game. And this is a sad fact about this game as I know 3 old friend (ex-guildie) are not returning and group nerf (on a social level)is a major issue to them.

Tulga .. you migth have to adjust your group nerf policy, if you want to encourage social play versus soloing.

[Vidken]

One reason why I like Horizons is that I have the ability to make progress as I'm soloing.

When I played Shadowbane, some nights would be slow for our guild, and I would be faced with nothing to do, because PVE was horrendously skewed toward group exp. Shadowbane had this to an extreme.

Many guilds would send out a group to a common powerleveling spot and have newbies fresh off the starter island strip down to nothing, so they couldn't be thieved, and go AFK. The powerleveler(s) would set up a macro and go AFK too. Experience was as pure as if you were killing everything yourself, with absolutely no effort needed, and the level didn't matter that much. We all know how dumb this is, even in a game where the PVE was an afterthought to PVP, but Shadowbane took it to such an extreme that if you were solo, you could hardly make any progress at all. Mobs on your level would almost kill you each time, and even if you got a rythem going (and somehow avoided linked aggro) it was still horrendously slow.

At least in Horizons, were I to log in on a slow night, I'll know that I can make some very real progress by myself until some guildies show up.

Although yes, I do agree that grouping should be more fun... I'm not saying Horizons should continue effort on becoming a solo endeavor, lol

[Nalrach]

One reason why I like Horizons is that I have the ability to make progress as I'm soloing.

Your rigth a fun thing about HZ is that you can solo if you want. For the same reason that you stipulate about Shadowbane, I hated EQ, wasting 30-60 mins trying to form a group before going on a hunt.

But like I said, social life in guild are important. I remember pre-merge, our guild used to host a guild hunt on Friday and saturday nigth's ... if you wanted to group/guild hunt you knew you could find a group at that time, or many time someone would say "okay time to hunt who comes", and you could join not worring if I'm to low or to high, it was a fun guild event.