Confectioner Preview - Feedback Thread

[AmonGwareth]

Date: 12/07/2005 [img]/images/com_images/spacer.gif[/img]
Goals:[*]Confectioner should be a necessary part of the Horizons system. That is, the products that are created should be in demand by the player-base.[*]Confectioners should be able to create all foods through Tier5 (and eventually Tier6).[*]Confectioners should be a source of social interaction for the Horizons player-base.[/list]
Food Breakdown:
There are three types of products that Confectioners will be able to create with the proposed system; Mundane, Beverages, and Mystical.
[*]Mundane - These foods are your standard foods for Horizons. They provide death-point reduction and contain normal harvested resources.[*]Beverages - Brewed using natural and mystical resources, this area of the Confectioner school has yet to be fully defined.[*]Mystical - Using resources that must be fought for, or are dangerous to obtain. Mystical foods provide buffs and augmentations in a manner similar to (but not encroaching upon) potions.[/list]
Currently at this time Mundane foods are being worked to be made available to the players. The other two parts of Confectioner will come at a later date as time within the design schedule permits.

Mundane Foods are broken down by Tier. Each tier requires an increasing number of ingredients; 2 at Tier 1, 3 at Tier 2, 4 at Tier 3, and so on. In addition, each Tier of food requires a mixture of unprocessed, single-processed, double-processed and sometimes purchased ingredients. What does this add to food? Well, it adds complexity while at the same time adding some predictability. Mundane foods rarely use any foods that are guarded, or are dangerous to reach for harvesting. No gruok meat, almost no fish, etc. These more dangerous resources are reserved for the Mystical foods that are to come later.

Within each Tier foods are divided into parts of a meal. You have Appetizers, Side-Dishes, Main Dishes and Desserts. Each part shares a timer so you will not be able to consume five Appetizers in a row. Rather, you will be encouraged to consume "meals" to reduce your death point timers.

DP Removal
The amount of time that each unit of food removes from your DP timer will be greatly increased. These numbers will be greatly increased over the current foods because of changes with the death point penalty as well as the length of time it takes to lose a death point. To ensure that there is demand for food at all tiers and to also not force players to eat certain tiers of foods, we're going to introduce a scaling to the amount of DP that food reduces. As you progress to the higher tiered food, the effectiveness of lower-tiered food is reduced. So if you are over level 80 then consuming a Tier 1 food will result in an 80% decrease in its effectiveness.

Finally, to encourage the more social aspect of confectioner and food consumption in the game, Taverns are being beefed up. We're lowering the fees for items sold at taverns as well as a significant increase in the effects when eating food in a tavern.



Example of Tier 1 Foods:
[img]/images/temp/t1food.jpg[/img]
Conclusion
Confectioner is being revamped with the goal of providing a more robust and entertaining experience for the school while at the same time fleshing out the school's products through Tier 5. Furthermore, we feel that the Confectioner school and its products should be in demand by the player-base.



Question & Answer

What does this mean for existing Confectioners?
First, a complete revamp of their existing formulas, foods, and resources. Some will remain the same, many will change.

Will Confectioners Lose their formulas?
No, not at all. Though some will change into other types of foods.

Will Confectioners use the Primary Skill System like the Lairshaper school?
Yes, the Primary skill system will be implemented with the revamp of Confectioner.

How will food be restricted?
Food will be restricted by highest adventurer level. So, for example, if your highest level is 80, then you will need to consume Tier 5 foods to receive the full benefit. However, the reverse is not true? As a level 80 or higher player you will be able to consume foods from the lower tiers, though the effectiveness of that food will be reduced.

What will happen to Ambrosia?
Ambrosia will no longer be craftable by Confectioners. Instead, it will become a rare loot-drop that will be coveted and sought after.

What about Brewing, Beverages and other types of foods?
These other aspects of the Confectioner school are being worked on and will be released at a later date. They include beverages and mystical foods.

How much will Taverns increase the effectiveness of food?
The figure currently being tossed around the office is double the effectiveness. This helps ensure that eating food in a tavern is far more effective than eating it outside of one, such as in the wild.

Will the length of time that death points last and the death point penalty be increased?
Yes, the length of time it takes for a death point to decay will be increased to 24 hours. And the death point penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75%.

[imported_tjl]

Will the length of time that death points last and the death point penalty be increased?
Yes, the length of time it takes for a death point to decay will be increased to 24 hours. And the death point penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75%.

ouch.

[Flindar]

One word Amon WOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!!

ok well maybe its not a word but this looks AWESOME

I cant wait to start cookin up some good stuff and the social aspect sounds most interesting (making taverns more usefull)

Group parties at the tavern with full courses of food....

Cant wait to see it in action... Do you have any kind of timetable for the parts release dates?

[LaughingOtter]

One or two areas of concern:

Currently at this time Mundane foods are being worked to be made available to the players. The other two parts of Confectioner will come at a later date as time within the design schedule permits.

This sounds like a partial fix - not a total revamp. I know there's a ton of stuff involved, but at least roll it in phases - finish the mundane foods, roll out, do the beverages, roll out, do the mystical. "When we have time" after more than a year of "after lairs and ARoP"? I'm sorry, but I don't think that's an acceptable answer.

Second, requiring confectioners to BUYbasic resourcesistotally unacceptable. No other school in the gamehas this requirement. As a stopgap until art assets are completed for the food resources, fine, buying resources is acceptable. Make them loot drops, make them bonus items, re-colora bunch of palm trees - whatever, but forcing confectioners to buy basic resources from the Vielo withNO expectation of relief iscompletely unfair andan unreasonable burden.

Confectionerswere poorly thought-out and only halfway developed at launch; the class deserves the time and attention to see it fixed properly. As it is, what's being presented here is only, well, half-baked. [^o)]

[Tzael]

Second, requiring confectioners to BUYbasic resourcesistotally unacceptable. No other school in the gamehas this requirement. As a stopgap until art assets are completed for the food resources, fine, buying resources is acceptable. Make them loot drops, make them bonus items, re-colora bunch of palm trees - whatever, but forcing confectioners to buy basic resources from the Vielo withNO expectation of relief iscompletely unfair andan unreasonable burden.

I've got no problem with some resources only being purchasable. Only some foods will require this, and there are plenty of foods that only require processed or double-processed resources, as well as plain resources. There's no obligation for a confectioner levelling up to purchase ingredients if they do not wish to do so. For the foods that will require resource purchases, us confectioners merely have to factor that cost into our final selling price.

Making food for parties might involve some careful spending since I won't expect people to pay for the food at such an event, but for general trade I have no doubt that I will turn a profit from special foods that require purchased ingredients, even if the profit is sometimes slim in the name of competition.

That aside, I am looking forward to the CNF revamp going into place and will take the opportunity when that time comes to level a third toon to 100 CNF so I can appreciate and familiarise myself with the changes in their entirety. Only then will I be in a position to speak from experience about how these changes affect the day to day life of a confectioner, as opposed to my current viewpoint of only comprehending what it will mean for those already at the top.

[imported_Ssilmath]

For some reason, I cannot see anywhere that it says that confectioners need to buy basic resources...Probably just missed it, could you please quote it for clarification?

[Theolaerynn]

Will the length of time that death points last and the death point penalty be increased?
Yes, the length of time it takes for a death point to decay will be increased to 24 hours. And the death point penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75%

So then you guys do stay awake nights thinking up new ways to drive of what few players you have left. Thanks for clearing that up, I wasn't sure before if it was intentional or just a coincidence.

[LaughingOtter]

For some reason, I cannot see anywhere that it says that confectioners need to buy basic resources...Probably just missed it, could you please quote it for clarification?

Sure.

Mundane Foods are broken down by Tier. Each tier requires an increasing number of ingredients; 2 at Tier 1, 3 at Tier 2, 4 at Tier 3, and so on. In addition, each Tier of food requires a mixture of unprocessed, single-processed, double-processed and sometimes purchased ingredients.

Mystical foods such as the gummi maggots or the Granny Nuffle punch produce different buffs, so an argument could be made that the purchased resources are no different from a tech comp that does not drop & must be purchased from Nadia. That's not the case. This is specifically in respect to mundane foods. That's why it's not acceptable. It'sno different fromrequiring anyone making cobalt bars to buy their nickle ore from an NPC.

[Varangaard]

Confectionerswere poorly thought-out and only halfway developed at launch; the class deserves the time and attention to see it fixed properly. As it is, what's being presented here is only, well, half-baked.

Well, I must strongly disagree with the half-baked assessment. To your first concern, doesn't the preview say exactly what you are requesting - finish mundales and then roll out? As for buying some resources, I don't think it is the best of ideas but it hardly makes the whole school half-baked.

As for my impressions; I've never played confectioner. I like the mundanes - beverages - mystical division. I also like the increasing processing demands (unprocess, processed, double processed) to create more effective foods. Added effort is rewarded with more powerful foods. As a side note, I like how dragon lairshaper school works with the multiple resource demands and how they need to be combined - sometimes through intermediate steps - to final products. The method of getting special resources as bonus resources from more mundane ones sounds good to me as well. This is how essence of blight currently works. The revamp of death points will make sure there'll be demand for foods of various tiers, as well. All in all, this appears to be turning into a very interesting craft school, and we don't even have much details on beverages and mystical foods yet.

edit:

It'sno different fromrequiring anyone making cobalt bars to buy their nickle ore from an NPC.

Yet it seems to be. You did not bolden the word 'sometimes'. If we look at tier1 preview, the number of foods that require pruchased ingredients is... zero. I strongly doubt even on tier6 all foods will require purchased components. Thus, the confectioner will have the option of simply not creating those foods. (But if they are forced to do this, I'll be taking everything I said on the matter back.)

[Senkeleron Fell]

As a confectioner I think the new stuff is excellent!

I would prefer that all items be gatherable or lootable though. I don't buy tech comps from the Vielo and I am not going to buy food ingredients from them either. If they have to be rare you can scatter things like nutmeg or cocoa plants at random over the whole of Istaria with a long respawn time or just an automatic respawn in a random (land) spot. That would make finding them an interesting surprise.

[LaughingOtter]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]LaughingOtter wrote: Confectionerswere poorly thought-out and only halfway developed at launch; the class deserves the time and attention to see it fixed properly. As it is, what's being presented here is only, well, half-baked.
Well, I must strongly disagree with the half-baked assessment. To your first concern, doesn't the preview say exactly what you are requesting - finish mundales and then roll out?

Yes. You're missing the rest of the statement. It's the statement that the beverages and mystical foods will be looked at when their schedule permits that is the issue. If Amon had said the team would be working on the other kinds of food and rolling them out as they were completed, that would be different. That's not what he said. If the schedule doesn't permit for another two years - and reading the design preview, there's a lot of other stuff being worked on - then this is it. Only one-third of a revamp.

Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen. I just want to see the class finished, and I don't see "when the schedule permits" as a committment to complete the promised revamp.

[Senkeleron Fell]

Another thing-

When you do roll this out, it would be nice if

1-you Zero everyone's death point count (since the length and severity are being changed)

and

2-you give us something nice to do with the soul frags and spirit oil we have collected for ambrosia.

[LaughingOtter]

If we look at tier1 preview, the number of foods that require pruchased ingredients is... zero. I strongly doubt even on tier6 all foods will require purchased components. Thus, the confectioner will have the option of simply not creating those foods. (But if they are forced to do this, I'll be taking everything I said on the matter back.)

Ah, so it's not wrong if it's only required "sometimes"? So, armorsmiths should have no reason to complain if they suddenly were required to buy hinges in order to make greaves, armguards and gauntlets? If they don't want to buy hinges, they don't have to make those items, right? While were at it, why not require hinges on dragon wing scales, too? Not like dragon crafters HAVE to make them....

Wrong is wrong. It's no less wrong because it may only apply to a few things. It's wrong.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Heh, I wouldn't complain too much, LO...I can't speak for other armorers, but such a thing simply adds to the end price of armor, adds complexity and adds in some strategy as to what you make to level and what you make to sell...

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

The, "as time permits" comment worries me more than alittle as well.

I'm also not keen to have to purchase my ingredients either but we'll see.

I do want to mention though about taverns. Currently as stated it seems that ALL taverns of ALL sizes will give the same bonus for food consumption (double). I feel this should be looked into further to give the larger taverns more of a bonus. If all taverns give the same bonus there what reason, other than larger listing limits, would anyone have to bother building a medium or large tavern? Especially since drinks and mysticals are going to come out until Fates know when, larger listing limits aren't exactly a huge incentive when we prolly wouldn't even fill up a smalls limit with the foods we'll be getting with the rework.

Work taverns bonuses like shop bonuses only not as large of a percentage... Examples: Small = 25%, Medium = 35%, Large = 50%.

[Zvah]

Mystical foods provide buffs and augmentations in a manner similar to (but not encroaching upon) potions.

As an alchemist, this worries me.

[imported_tjl]

Second, requiring confectioners to BUYbasic resourcesistotally unacceptable. No other school in the gamehas this requirement. As a stopgap until art assets are completed for the food resources, fine, buying resources is acceptable. Make them loot drops, make them bonus items, re-colora bunch of palm trees - whatever, but forcing confectioners to buy basic resources from the Vielo withNO expectation of relief iscompletely unfair andan unreasonable burden.

perhaps they meant conf may need to buy... orbs or some other resource for example. something their class cannot make without multiclassing another. (like alchs cannot make the tools for potions) it may not be in regards to the vielo purchases.

devs, some clarification would be neat.

[LaughingOtter]

perhaps they meant conf may need to buy... orbs or some other resource for example. something their class cannot make without multiclassing another. (like alchs cannot make the tools for potions) it may not be in regards to the vielo purchases.

There are already several food resources in-game that can only be bought from the Vielo. That part is fact, not speculation. At max efficiency, it costs (IIRC) 900 copper to make ONE bottle of Granny Nuffle punch. People won't pay a silver per bottle, which is ZERO profit for the confectioner who made it.

[AmonGwareth]

"Purchased" ingredients represent those ingredients which cannot be currently found in Istaria by its inhabitants and are "found" by the Vielo and made available for sale.

[will rock]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Amon Gwareth wrote: Will the length of time that death points last and the death point penalty be increased?
Yes, the length of time it takes for a death point to decay will be increased to 24 hours. And the death point penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75%So then you guys do stay awake nights thinking up new ways to drive of what few players you have left. Thanks for clearing that up, I wasn't sure before if it was intentional or just a coincidence.

Horizons i think will be the only game now where being Betty Crocker is l33t or uber. What about monks? Where is monk love? 7 deaths and u have to craft for a week or help the now uber confectioner.....I consistenly get 10 deaths. This change is horrible in my opinion. If ur going to put this in untweak the mobs in the game back to how they used to be. :(