Confectioner Preview - Feedback Thread

[imported_tjl]

"Purchased" ingredients represent those ingredients which cannot be currently found in Istaria by its inhabitants and are "found" by the Vielo and made available for sale.

im with Klaus then... this is not really fair to the confectioners. unless they are very very cheap.

[Cobal]

Nice changes [:D]

Since dragons need bipeds for yet another thing.
Can we now please get the option to eat animal mobs we kill? :)
for a much lesser effect to the dp then cooked food would give offcourse.
and no effect lessening at all if we eat deer or sheep, only stuff that fights back should shave a wee bit of time of the dp's.
Would add some flavor to the game.

I'd also suggest a radius of effectiveness around the taverns, after all if its a sunny day who wants to eat inside? + Many dragons dont like going khutit,sitting outside the tavern is much more natural for a dragon.
(that and a dragon who forgot going khutit walking into a tavern is rather detrimental to the structure :P)

ALso, how about adding a tavern cave to lairs and the dragon towns.
Lore wise a lunus wouldnt be caught dead eating a friendly meal WITH bipeds. (a friendly meal consisting OFF bipeds is another matter entirely offcourse :P)

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

I'd also suggest a radius of effectiveness around the taverns, after all if its a sunny day who wants to eat inside? + Many dragons dont like going khutit,sitting outside the tavern is much more natural for a dragon.
(that and a dragon who forgot going khutit walking into a tavern is rather detrimental to the structure [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img])

I would assume that is how the tavern effect would be implemented. I don't believe any other "you must be within X meters of this" effect exists. Machines, cargo disks, and vaults all seem to operate with a simple distance formula from the NPC.

[gena_st]

Will Confectioners use the Primary Skill System like the Lairshaper school?
Yes, the Primary skill system will be implemented with the revamp of Confectioner.

I vote no on this. The primary skill system makes for a lot of tedious, unrewarded work. As a general rule, my desire to play Horizons will disappear the more this system appears.

What will happen to Ambrosia?
Ambrosia will no longer be craftable by Confectioners. Instead, it will become a rare loot-drop that will be coveted and sought after.

While I look forward to not needing to hunt for Essence of Blight anymore, I would like something useful to do with the hundreds of Spirit Oils and Soul Frags I have saved up. It took me a very long time to amass them.

On other points, I like having more things available to make and more intermediate steps - it makes the class more interesting. I also like the variety of effects of products and finding a way to make the products much more "in-demand" than they are currently, since the class is almost useless at the moment. I share concerns, however, about the changes to the death points - both the length and the severity - since this puts too much weight on the confectioner class.

As for the purchased ingredients, so long as there is a way to level the class without having to purchase ingredients, I don't see it as a problem. Unlike the armor analogy, there will be food available that is effective for all characters without having to purchase ingredients. In the armor example, this would not be the case - higher level characters would not be able to "work around" the need to purchase items. In the food world, you can eat lower level foodsand get the same final effect, whereas just wearing lower level armor simply wouldn't cut it.

Hope this is helpful feedback.

[Varangaard]

If Amon had said the team would be working on the other kinds of food and rolling them out as they were completed, that would be different. That's not what he said. If the schedule doesn't permit for another two years - and reading the design preview, there's a lot of other stuff being worked on - then this is it. Only one-third of a revamp.

I can agree with that. Now that ARoP is done, lairs are out, the confectioner revamp is the Next Big Thing. Just as ARoP and lairs were given priority when they were worked on, now this next major step should be receiving similar treatment - priority work until finished.

As for purchaseable ingredients, we just have to agree to disagree. But as said before, I'll reserve final judgement until after we see how prevalent their use is, and how costly they are.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

I can agree with that. Now that ARoP is done, lairs are out, the confectioner revamp is the Next Big Thing. Just as ARoP and lairs were given priority when they were worked on, now this next major step should be receiving similar treatment - priority work until finished.

And this is exactly why I was more than a bit peeved about the lack in focus being given to Confs. It is STILL being seen as the red-headed step child. If TG would just focus on ONE BIG THING (this time being Conf) at a time then they would cut through their to do list SO much faster.

Sure, you can still add little tweeks, additions, and fixes and that as well, but central focus should always be on the one big task that is scheduled. As it is, TG is spreading itself thin and it's not boding well for the game. Gotta learn not to let the populace sidetrack you to doing this and that and a little of those and get one big thing done at a time. If a tweek/fix/addition will take more than a day or two to sort out/impliment, then, unless it is a fix that is in dire need of implimentation, it's not worth spending time on to do until you can finish your main task. Once the main task is finished it frees up more time for other tasks down the list. Right now, we have SOOOO many half-arsed implimented things going on it's not funny.

If you CAN'T give Confs what you have planned to give in any reasonable amount of time and not spread out throughout the next year or so, then change your plans on what you want/plan to do for the class. Making "promises" that you aren't willing to fully fulfill within a reasonable time just adds to the bad rep you guy have and adds another nail to the coffin.

[Levity]

Another thing-

When you do roll this out, it would be nice if

1-you Zero everyone's death point count (since the length and severity are being changed)

and

2-you give us something nice to do with the soul frags and spirit oil we have collected for ambrosia.

I like #1 (and I usually have zero death points, so that's not a selfish thing by me :))

#2 - Forgive me if it doesn't work this way, but shouldn't you, um, stock up on Ambrosia now? Make a lot of it, before you can't any more and it becomes rare? That might use up the supplies you have. From context, maybe you can't without the rare EoB ingredient, in which case never mind me.

-Levity Merrel

[Vignar]

My first reaction when I saw:

Goals:
Confectioner should be a necessary part of the Horizons system. That is, the products that are created should be in demand by the player-base. Confectioners should be able to create all foods through Tier5 (and eventually Tier6).Confectioners should be a source of social interaction for the Horizons player-base.[/list]

I thought that, along with reducing Death Point penalty, it could have a buff. Something like ?Satiated? and when this buff wore off, you get a debuff ?Hunger Pangs? that does kind of the same thing as death penalty, only to a lesser extent. Maybe the Satiated buff isn?t visible as to not have a constant square in your buff window.

But then I saw:

Yes, the length of time it takes for a death point to decay will be increased to 24 hours. And the death point penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75%

I liked it immediately. Like others have said, the biggest reason to not die is to not lose time in killing/harvesting to get back to the field. With low enough DP, the penalty is gone by the time you do get back.
I can?t speak for others, but none of the three people that use my account have ever used nor ever felt an overwhelming need to use food or ambrosia.
I look forward to this change, but make sure to add in something edible that is raw. Cooked food makes my tummy upset.
As for the experience gain being the same as Laircrafting, it is only right. Every class will be moving to this system eventually

....I consistenly get 10 deaths. This change is horrible in my opinion. If ur going to put this in untweak the mobs in the game back to how they used to be.

I don?t believe that it is necessary to untweak the mobs (I assume you mean make them weaker, reduce the AI, etc.). Not to tell you how to play, but if you consistently get 10 death points, perhaps you should reconsider your strategies? There are plenty of mobs to choose from. If you die a lot, there are plenty of weaker mobs and areas to fight single mobs. Joining groups is good too.

[PJ]

An interesting idea. Use of ingenuity for gathering of raw meats/fruits/vegetables/grains for quick, readily available consumption when no prepared foods could be had.

Dragons in particular needs a grizzly "Eat" animation for snarfing deer, cows, low hp mobs, and certain members of the vielo [:@]

[Theolaerynn]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Theolaerynn wrote:[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Amon Gwareth wrote:Will the length of time that death points last and the death point penalty be increased?
Yes, the length of time it takes for a death point to decay will be increased to 24 hours. And the death point penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75%So then you guys do stay awake nights thinking up new ways to drive of what few players you have left. Thanks for clearing that up, I wasn't sure before if it was intentional or just a coincidence.


That was the silliest thing I have ever heard.

Death points as they currently stand are a JOKE. This increase means that if you gain 20 death points, you might be in a world of hurt.....or.....you might actually require interaction with the playerbase!

I'm all for this change. In fact, I don't think it should stop at 75%, it should go right up to 95% if someone is stubborn enough not to use food items.

The only thing that I dislike is yet another thing that dragons require a biped for. However, this actually has a place in the game (As where requireing Rune Styluses for Ancient RoP does NOT belong.)

Let me see, you are whining because you have to purchase a single item for a one-time quest, but think that 24 hours per death point is peachy keen fine? To make your reply even more laughable, you are arguing on the one hand that more player interaction is what you are after, but on the other hand you don't want to have to deal with Bi-Peds for your one item that one time.

I find it interesting (not in a sarcastic way) that folks here feel that this change is beneficial. What does it bring to the game? For myself, it doesn't increase the sense of risk, just the sense of annoyance.

Community interaction? Bring on the war, that will involve me in the community! Food, not so much. I will fly your resources and fight critters side by side with you, but my coin is more valuable than your food. If the penalty is too much I will play another game until the penalty goes away. If it gets too bad, I will save my $13/month and spend it elsewhere.

I can understand wanting to make the Confectioner School useful, but isn't that what the non-deathpont related food does? Those food buffs sound pretty good to me, I would purchase those. Why add another change on top of that, especially if it annoys the hell out of people?

But heck, why not just bring back the disease that only Dragons could cure, while you are at it, and remove the immunity to it? That way Dragons could be more useful too, and I am sure it would be fun to the crowd favoring longer deathpoints.

[Zaradoom_Unity]

maybe i am alone here... but don't some of you fear they go overboard again?
All this sounds like conf goes from a useless class to the ONLY needed craftclass besides alchemists maybe.

We all know how bad the market for NON consumeable product goes. Havent sould a single juwelry in months.

This changes make for a high demand on food (some people just seem to love to die lol).

On the other hand,... the deathpoint change is long needed. Did not use a single Ambrosia since i rejoined the game 3 months ago. Leveled 4 adv to 100 meanwhile. Sad being a confectioner... but i just did not need it. At some point i got 5 DPs. But the effect disapeared after a short while and the DPs reduced themselves in 2 days. Death means nothing right now.

Well still this sounds like enough fun to play the Confectioner again. Stopped it at lvl 61, as that was the lvl for optimal Ambrosia VIIs ;-)

[Tzael]

There are already several food resources in-game that can only be bought from the Vielo. That part is fact, not speculation. At max efficiency, it costs (IIRC) 900 copper to make ONE bottle of Granny Nuffle punch. People won't pay a silver per bottle, which is ZERO profit for the confectioner who made it.

Any expert confectioner who can make those is also in a position to be able to offset profit margins against types of food that are not as costly to make. Oh and for the record people on Unity have been offering 2s for the Granny Nuffle Punch, typically when I do a batch they sells for 1.5s each. Sounds like a profit margin to me, and I don't even have other tier V foods to offset profit margins against !

[imported_Rhyssa]

I love the idea of the increase to the death penalty. Death is supposed to be painful, currently it's completely meaningless. There are people in the game now who brag about the number of death points they have, once the total number reaches the maximum effect of 20%, why should they care if they get any more? I still don't get how having lots of death points is something to brag about, to me it says you aren't a very good fighter, but maybe they view things differently.

On the subject of resources that have to be purchased, I assumed that these would be for only a few very special recipes in each tier. There weren't any in the Tier 1 list posted though so maybe that's wrong. I'd hate to see all Tier 5 food require purchased ingredients. That would be completely wrong. But if it's just for a few recipes that will do something extra good, then I don't see a problem with it. Confectioners could just make those only if the player bought the special ingredients, or buy them and sell them at a high profit.
The armour equivalent would be not hinges that are necessary to all armour items, but maybe extra strength metal, or extra flaps added to the armour - it isn't necessary, but if you want it then you pay the extra, if not, then don't pay it.
It would be good if we could get some clarifiaction on this.

This will be great for confectioners in that they will be the only school that has an ongoing customer base. All other schools, once you have your ideal armour, or jewellery, or weapon etc, you never need to buy another. The only solution to this though is item decay of some sort, but that's a topic for another discussion.

[Tzael]

Will Confectioners use the Primary Skill System like the Lairshaper school?
Yes, the Primary skill system will be implemented with the revamp of Confectioner.I vote no on this. The primary skill system makes for a lot of tedious, unrewarded work. As a general rule, my desire to play Horizons will disappear the more this system appears.

I wouldn't worry about this. Confectioners currently get experience from their cooking, brewing andearthencraft skills. Now let's assume that it'll be a single skill experience generator for confectioners, in which case the likely skill is cooking. Since cooking accounts for almost all items we make (with the exception of vinegars and clay dishes) and generates the most experience, things won't seem too different. However wait one moment ! There's more ! All experience that we might gain under the current system from earthencraft and brewing will instead be yielded directly from making the products that require cooking skill !

So as an example, let's say you get 100 exp for making some vinegar, 200 exp for making some clay baking sheets, 150 exp for processing basic confectioner resources such as sugar or such like, and 350 exp for making the final meal under the current system. Compare that to the new system : you'd get zero exp for making some vinegar, zero exp for making clay sheets, and a total of 800 exp shared between making the sugar and the final meal (since those are the two parts that use the cooking skill). That sounds alright to me, we're not going to lose out in terms of reward for effort [:)]

[Tzael]

I find it interesting (not in a sarcastic way) that folks here feel that this change is beneficial. What does it bring to the game? For myself, it doesn't increase the sense of risk, just the sense of annoyance.

Aww c'mon, anyone who's been watching the design previews had already put 2 + 2 together, when a potato salad offers roughly an hour of death point removal you can't seriously expect the death point time to remain at 8 hours ?!? Judging by what you've said in this topic so far though, I'm willing to wager that you're an ambrosia customer. Those who don't get many DPs aren't bothered by the change, those who get plenty of DPs but did their homework and practised elementary deduction skills also don't appear to be bothered.

But heck, why not just bring back the disease that only Dragons could cure, while you are at it, and remove the immunity to it? That way Dragons could be more useful too, and I am sure it would be fun to the crowd favoring longer deathpoints.

Bring it on ! If it wasn't for selective individuals being overly vocal onthe forums (ie the 'vocal minority') then we might still have fun things like Zymosis Morbidae (don't anyone dare pull the 'it was no fun for low levels' argument on me, you'll only be demonstrating ignorance if you do) and the developers wouldn't be scared about the prospect of ever doing any event like that ever again. It's the vocal minority who keep screwing up our game, it's time for those with more balanced perspectives to speak up and balance the scales !

For Istaria, for the Empire !

[Theolaerynn]

Judging by what you've said in this topic so far though, I'm willing to wager that you're an ambrosia customer. Those who don't get many DPs aren't bothered by the change, those who get plenty of DPs but did their homework and practised elementary deduction skills also don't appear to be bothered.

Oddly, I have never once had Ambrosia, wasn't worth the money. For that same reason, the only Confectioner food I have had was a short stint of checking it out back when my wife was thinking of going Confectioner, and that was with an alt It just wasn't worth the money, if my death points are bad enough for me to notice them then I would rather play another game until those points fade away.

I do die frequently, by my standards. Usually at least once while out hunting, and on rare occasions as many as six times. The 'once' is often due to poor code. For example, I freeze up for 5 seconds whenever another player comes into view. That alone has cost me many points. But mostly it is due to experimentation, or simply not catching that I have pulled more than I thought I have.

Bottom line for me is that I do not have enough money to waste on reducing death points. Plenty of other games to play while I wait for death points to decay. And like I said before, once it gets too annoying I will simply invest my $13/month elsewhere.

[Theolaerynn]

I find it interesting (not in a sarcastic way) that folks here feel that this change is beneficial. What does it bring to the game? For myself, it doesn't increase the sense of risk, just the sense of annoyance.It brings a TINY bit more fear. Death points are rediculous. At their worst they are 1 hour of 25% less stats. So, you die again. Time to craft for an hour till DP goes away, then back at it. 1-2 death points will be removed when you go to sleep. OR, just eat 40 Ambrosia.

You are right, it doesn't increase the sense of risk, but what do you propose for death to make it something to avoid instead of simply an annoyance?

This wont make me fear death any more, it will just annoy me a lot. Besides, I don't mind that death points are of minimal impact, it makes it so that when we put Guild Hunts together it doesn't really affect the little ones too badly when they get swarmed by critters due to the agro change. We can all have fun and laugh about it, and in a day or two they will be up and running full swing.

I definitely do not get the logic of "If we can't make it fun we can at least make it more annoying". Why not just leave it alone, and concentrate on the other aspects of food?

Community interaction? Bring on the war, that will involve me in the community! Food, not so much. I will fly your resources and fight critters side by side with you, but my coin is more valuable than your food. If the penalty is too much I will play another game until the penalty goes away. If it gets too bad, I will save my $13/month and spend it elsewhere.You will, others will simply seek out the confectioner. Which means that they did this RIGHT, now they just need to fix everything else. Up until now the ONLY class that has an inifinite supply of demand is the alchemist. Blacksmiths could run out of ever having customers as they all get to their teched Tier V armor, Spellcrafters can run out of ever having customers as they all get to their teched Tier V spells.

No, actually, I wont. I haven't before, and wont in the future. It isn't a matter of obstinance, it is a matter of lack of enjoyment. The change does nothing to enhance the game in any way for me, I would rather save my silver for the things I actually get enjoyment from.

The buff food, on the other hand, that I might buy from time to time.

Alchemists will always have people seeking potions, and now another class joins the ranks. People will always want food. I applaud that, and can't wait till everyone else is eventually "In Demand"

Yay for Crafter Nirvana! I think it would be a great thing to see crafters all interdependant on one another, and leave us Adventure types out of it. Do buff items or whatever so that there is choice without penalty, do item tricking and customizations, basically just do fun stuff. Annoying stuff is senseless.

[AA0]

This isn't meant to be annoying, its the first real attempt to do things right.
HZ lacks player interaction, economy, ... everything because nothing is required, nothing disappears.
I don't know if they plan to add consumables to all crafts (T6 will definitely be), but this brings hz back to the norm. HZ has been way too friendly on people that just don't want to work for anything ever, you should always be looking to make money and gain equipment... not be happy for 1.5 years because you've been set for life from a couple days of PB runs.

I think its a good change, and just hope it gets completed, all the way through. Not like the multicast/perfect change which remains broken still... or the bone splinter change which is a footnote of a bunch of broken items now.

[Zaradoom_Unity]

every change that makes the game a little less easy and improves player contacts... is a great change.

And you know what? Enjoyment,... ever thought not everyone enjoys it if everything is handed to them?
I enjoy staing alive,... if i die to a mob i want revenge... i adjust my tactics and try again. If i loose to a mob more then one time, ill get 5min of minor statreduction, dont even notice it as its gone when i am back in place anyways.

I do enjoy the fear of dying in a dangerous area. Or at least i would... if i had to fear dying. But i don't. Simple as that. The blight areas used to scare the hell out of me, untill i noticed i can just come back and won't loose anything.

The new cap of 75% doesnt change anything, if you get above 25% you REALLY did something wrong, BIG TIME. And the 24hour, well. Doesnt change anything for me as well,.. as i said... i try to avoid dying, because i hate dying :-)

For most peeps it means:
1. die less
2. try to avoid death as if it was your only life
3. make friends with a confectioner
4. try grouping for thet dangerous area to avoid death, see point 2

Hardly anything that makes the game less enjoyable. The opposite is true for me (and i am sure for quite a few others as well) because:

1. People have to use tactics more, solo and grouped. Wich is a major plus for grouping. I hardly, if ever, saw a group using tactics to beat stuff. That could change! (well i can dream, right?)
2. Maybe some more thrill while going into dangerous areas...fight that new big boss
3. a reason to level conf past lvl 60ish
4. more playerinteraction. Not alot for sure...but SOME. Every little bit counts
5. another reason to laugh at people that bummrush everything, then die, then cry that their class is so weak. Gotta laugh with (or at) those lvl 90+ noobs. But sometimes i have the feeling they just never had a reason to lern how to play,... maybe we are on the right path for that tho.

[Talitha]

Just my humble little opinion....I'm rather wary of having to depend on NPC supplies for anything, really. Do the Vielo have to be the monopoly on all special supplies? If it keeps up, they'll be the richest dandies in the game as they will have allthe crafters'money, and soon they will rule the world!

NPC suppliers are expensive, and while I know they're currently being used as money sinks and resource bases while the player economy is kind of...limp, I'd like to try to phase them out completely. So that players who work hard enough can gather/locate/stock/craft anything they have earned the formulas/gathering skills for. Even if it takes a quest, or a long search, or whatever...just so we're not all forced to run down to the overpriced Vielomart for every little thing. The ability to gather certain special resources should perhaps require an ability or a quest to gain that skill, something perhaps more challenging so that not everyone who is in a particular class is able to get it. Variety even within crafting classes; no clones. [:)]

And....just from the perspective of Lore....why do Dragons have to depend on bipeds for anything?Both factions of Dragons maintain a certain degree of separation, regardless of their intentions. Helians I could understand, perhaps, but Lunus wouldn't be caught dead sipping potato soup from a little clay bowl I would think. Maybe someday (soon) there should be Dragon Confectioners, who make food for their brethren--some similar/identical to biped food (meat and ribs and such) and some unique to the Dragon race, cooked in a lava oven or a coal stove or some such. (Although both Dragon and biped could share their respective "unique" foods with each other.) That way the proud Lunus warrior standing over there doesn't have to buy sustenance off the crawly little nakas. [;)] So far the only "Dragon Confectioners" are the two NPC drakes who stand near the city shrines in Dralk and Chiconis and sell ambrosia.

Still, I'm glad to see another class get an overhaul/improvement. I have a baby Sslik alt who wants to be a Confectioner (since even before thechanges were announced) so I'm also very interested to see where this goes. Thanks for listening, y'all!

~Talitha