A Comparison of Required Resources for Lair Chambers and Biped Shops

[Dragonboy]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Lycaunoss wrote:

My only complaint about lairshaping right now is that there is a ton of what I would call waste because of the high ratio's needed for making the final products. What needs to change is that ratio going down and perhaps the number of units required needs to go up a bit. Thanks to that lairshaping is a total grind and it doesn't need to be. I'd really like to feel like I'm accomplishing something. Even if I'm not going any faster than I am right now.



Why do you call it waste because of the high ratios? It's still all being used on your lair.

Don't you get more of a sense of accomplishment from doing something that requires a lot of effort, rather than something that's really easy? (This is to everyone, not you personally).

My dragon is level 34 lairshaping and I've barely done any Tier 2 work, almost all of those levels have come from Tier 1 stuff, and I haven't even finished the first level of my lair. Every other dragon I know around the same level is at the same point. The dragons I know who are working t4 stuff are only at the third level of their plots (ie level 2). My dragon will be level 100 lair shaping long before I get my lair finished. There is absolutely no way I could get a single one of my biped construction schools to 100 just working on my plot. I probably couldn't even build jm buildings if i didn't make/decon tools etc to level. (Keep in mind that bipeds don't get much experience for actually placing building units).

I know dragons don't get the choice to make/decon to level, but why would you want it? It's a boring waste of time and resources.

It would be interesting to hear from other players who have both a dragon and a biped builder and see which system they prefer.

I know the building process is complicated, but surely I'm not the only one who finds bulding a lair satisfying?

2100 Dim essence > 1050 Dim Essence Orbs
2100 Copper and tin ore > 1050 Bronze bars
15 of each for 1 finished product that would be a total of 70 imbued bronze bars.

While at max efficiency you still need 168 Imb. Bronze bars (required 84 but at a 2:1 placing ratio) for a T1 storage...
Not to mention the 168 Lattice (84) which are definitly the worst in my honest opinion...

Personally I dont care about crafting "inefficient" but I hate the idea I am forced to craft 2 times the amount that is "required" to finish the resources...

Dump the 2:1 placing ratio and I am happier...
To be honest it will always remain a grind if you really wanna finish a lair, BUT if the requirement says 84 and I am forced to craft double resources for the same result I get annoyed...

[Akuluxtraxas]

Lairshaping solo is murder. I dont care about numbers etc ive done both. 4 days at LS and i havent played Hz since 4 days after auctions. It was so tedious i went to gW and hunted non stop for the time since then (and got rewards for effort omg).

Lairs are beautifully designed as far as look and all but construction is not within my patience and atm i can safely say my lairs will all remain unfinished if even touched. it saddens me that after 2 years of paying and waiting the very things i always waited upon have been beyond dissapointing in some way. I almost dream of seeing my lair fully complete but thats all it is a dream.

[Death-knell]

Well I've been grinding my lair since they were available. I have a vault completed as well as a tier 4 essense chamber and a tier 4 crystalshaping chamber.

I must say you designed them beautifully, I look at my layer zero with a measure of pride.

But that being said I must agree with the other posters, the resource requirements are way out of control ! My alt is an enchanter, another fairly sadistic building school. But lairshaping blows it away when it comes to grind and mindless combinations.

I really wish you would A) Give us better disks to meet the incredible resource/combo requirements.

or B) Make some changes to lairshaping, keep it challenging, but cut down the incredible amount of resources necessary.

[Tantalyr]

My suggestion would be to delete the "intermediate" construction units--tri-cut gems, cast stones and lodestones. These intermediate units add nothing but frustration and more grind to an already complicated system, and effectively give dragons a 4:1, rather than a 2:1, ratio in constructing installable construction units at optimal.

As a classic illustration of what I mean here, 1680 platinum bars PLUS 1680 obsidian slabs PLUS 840 bright essence orbs yields precisely TWENTY-TWO placed polished maelstones, because the amount of platinum bars and obsidian slabs is cut in half by requiring the initial construction of platinum lodestones. By comparison, a biped mason with 1680 obsidian bricks ALONE can place 42 obsidian keystones, or 56 obsidian blocks.

It's difficult enough to have to gather two, three and sometimes four different resources to make construction units without having to also double the gathering grind by adding in intermediate construction units.

[Dragoniade]

My suggestion would be to delete the "intermediate" construction units--tri-cut gems, cast stones and lodestones. These intermediate units add nothing but frustration and more grind to an already complicated system, and effectively give dragons a 4:1, rather than a 2:1, ratio in constructing installable construction units at optimal.

Or halve the application requirement to 1:1 instead of 2:1.

Or change halve some of the intermediate ressource. For instance: caststone, lodestone could only require stone and metal respectively, rather than a combinaison of 2 ressources. Or have them require only 1 of each.

Or double the produced units, sort of like alchemist. Get 2 castone, 2lodestone or 3 tri-cut gems for each produced ressource rather than 1.

And put full crafting caves closer to ressource. Making Melding Essence or Lattice is a real pain... And accidentally losing 42 latice thanks to a bad selection is a real pain after doing such chores

Anyway, anything that make this less a nuissance and more fun.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

*prays the Gods will hear their pleas in this if nothing else!*

[imported_Lycaunoss]

My suggestion would be to delete the "intermediate" construction units--tri-cut gems, cast stones and lodestones. These intermediate units add nothing but frustration and more grind to an already complicated system, and effectively give dragons a 4:1, rather than a 2:1, ratio in constructing installable construction units at optimal.

As a classic illustration of what I mean here, 1680 platinum bars PLUS 1680 obsidian slabs PLUS 840 bright essence orbs yields precisely TWENTY-TWO placed polished maelstones, because the amount of platinum bars and obsidian slabs is cut in half by requiring the initial construction of platinum lodestones. By comparison, a biped mason with 1680 obsidian bricks ALONE can place 42 obsidian keystones, or 56 obsidian blocks.

It's difficult enough to have to gather two, three and sometimes four different resources to make construction units without having to also double the gathering grind by adding in intermediate construction units.

Even if you take your suggestion a step back it would be ok. Make the processing of the intermediate 1:1 at max efficiency. I don't actually find doing Imbued bars to be that bad mostly because it's 15:1 on the final instead of 20:1 and I'm not wasting time in the intermediate step. I think that totally cutting that step out would maybe make it a bit too fast though.

[Akuluxtraxas]

I guess my suggestion would be to make the intermediate units 1 resourse type or reduce the final needs to say 10 of each item like 10 cast stones plus 10 iron bars per flowstone.

I also think a cargo disk with high max bulk and multiple stacks that can port would alleviate the grind some.

as is doing most types a cargo disk help only a bit unless you have biped storage available. Deluxe disks cant port and tarbash just dont cut it when you need to make certain resources like tri cut gems or then like.

All i want iis to have fun and feel good about my effort atm i do not i work hours by myself to get 5% or 8% done and just quit in frustration. on a biped plot i could whip up 25% in less time and that was all tier III/IV while im doing tier II atm on my lair..

[LaughingOtter]

My biped main is a level 100 miner. Fully deployed, I can make 100 joints or keys in a single run, which is about 20 minutes to get 2000 bricks or bars, slightly longer for T3+ metals.

I have access to an excellent storage and processing infrastructure, including five guild consigners and scads of silos, all within reasonable distance of both a crystal shaper and T1 azulyte. Even gathering, hauling, and storing mass quantities of resources for my dragon to use, getting anywhere building a lair chamber is taking forever. Three or fourhours of making and hauling resources yesterday resulted in a grand total of 50 flawed maelstones and around 1,000 T2 cast stones - I still need a load of iron bars to finish processing them.

Something is out of whack.

For any construction project: rawresources+processing+refining+transportation=wo rk required to build a given structure.

It seems reasonable to me that work should remain consistant between biped & dragon structures. That's parity. Transportation includes moving all resources to a location where you can make the finished product as well as delivering the product to the work site. If processing and finishing are harder, then fewer resources should be required or transportation should be much easier. One possible scenario for this equation is a flying, porting, multi-stack cargo disk that only dragons can use.

Laircrafting has much higher amounts of work involved with processing and finishing. Transportation is a higher amount of work due to lack of azulyte processing infrastructure. I think it's as difficult to work as ironsilk, myself. It may be that some biped structures require more resources than an equivalent lair chamber, but what I've seen is that generally lair chambers use the greater amount of resources.

I like the added complexity of lairshaping, but that added complexity should be balanced by lower total resource requirements. Biped construction has fewer steps and is very simple (single-resource porcessing), so it is balanced by the higher resource requirement.

1:1 requirements on the intermediate resources would make processing easier and lower the resource cost overall, bringing dragon and biped construction a lot closer to parity than what we have now.

[Dragoniade]

I have access to an excellent storage and processing infrastructure, including five guild consigners and scads of silos, all within reasonable distance of both a crystal shaper and T1 azulyte.

Yes. And that's another point where dragon get the short hand. They get smaller silo than bipeds. so when it come to crafting, they got to deal with more work for less.

[Mandovar]

personaly for me the biggest pain in the A... is thecrystaline Latice. Complicatest structur and mostly needed.:-( For a dragon Tir 1 silo i have to gather 20160 uncut gems! and6720 unfocused Azulyte Crystals. 84 Units! I can use guildsilos and machines but in 3 and a half hour of work i am justbe able tofinish 25 units! And i dont get much xp for them at all as a level 27 lairshaper.
Please correct the number of units which are needed.

[Tzaphnil]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]LaughingOtter wrote:

I have access to an excellent storage and processing infrastructure, including five guild consigners and scads of silos, all within reasonable distance of both a crystal shaper and T1 azulyte.

Yes. And that's another point where dragon get the short hand. They get smaller silo than bipeds. so when it come to crafting, they got to deal with more work for less.

No, I think we have the same bulk as the Biped silos, and our silos are not smaller, They are Bigger, which is the problem. They increase in size, instead of staying the same size no mater what tier they are, as Bipeds do.

[Dragoniade]

No, I think we have the same bulk as the Biped silos, and our silos are not smaller, They are Bigger, which is the problem. They increase in size, instead of staying the same size no mater what tier they are, as Bipeds do.

That's the point. They got the same bulk, but they take up to NINE time the space of a Biped silo of the same tier.

In the space to put 1 Tier 5 Silos, you could have put 6 more.You lose 6 time more bulks. And don't forget that, contrarely to biped silo, dragon has to build access road to get to them. While a biped can fill a plot with silo packed next to each others and still be able to access every one of them, a dragon has to use half of the space in coridor, at the very least.

I think Tulga just don't want Dragon to even be par to biped in anything. I just wish Tulga would just convert all silo to Tier 2 shapes and alter the number of entry and capacity per Tier instead.

And when the Dev tell you to go play another game when you brings that issue just shows to the dragon how much they care about it.