Feedback about school: Dragon Lairshaping

[Seranthor]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Seranthor wrote: Ah yes, lets make up numbers like you just freely admitted. you know full well that if you had to use the actual numbers that your comparison would be even more tilted away from your intented posit. The facts remain uncontroverted, you want smaller footprints, you want lower resource requirement and you'd be more than happy to keep the current bulk. And it appears that your intent on throwingtantrum after tantrum until someone in power actually listens to you and caves to your flawed illogical whinings. Even with your cooked numbers that particular structure takes markedly more resources and thusfar you've failed miserably to dilute that fact. If you spent 1/2 the time actually building your lair instead of trying to twist numbers and trying to garner undeserved sympathy for your perceived plight you might actually learn something about your supposed craft. If you've succeeded in anything you've succeeded in proving to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the resources for building dragon structures need to be increased to match similar biped structures. Then you can have all your 'tents' and anything else you can dream up to try and fill the void that you perceive. Now, while you continue todemonstrate many of the traits that people find reprehensible and indefensible about dragons I'm going to go do something for the community and finish another dragon chamber so that people can use it.

How shallow can you be? I won't bother explaining AGAIN with that it won't matter if the number are at optimal or NOT because the relative number ARE STILL THE SAME. Time you get your head out of your posterior and see the light, rather than continiously grin levels after levels.

And guess what, I'm not wasting time when I'm typing those data, and wait for my dragon to dig out 3'000 uncut gems. So stop those lame excuse and start to actualy learn to play.
The proof that some people just grin level and shows they don't know how to play. Selfish players who try to pardon themselves by building 1-2 houses on a friend plot. Sorry, you fail to get my pity.

Pity? I'm not the one crying a river over percieved imbalances that would be you sir. I need no pity. I've learned to work within the current crafting system very well and I've earned all I have, none of it wasn't handed to me on a silver platter nor do I ask for anything of the sort.

Dragonaide accusing me of not knowing how to play is reaching the heights of cluelessness and just plain foolish, clearly you have no idea who I am or what I have accomplished thusfar. Ask some of the truly informed people on your shard about what I have accomplished from their own knowledge. 3k uncut you say?... thats a joke. 1-2 buildings on someone else's plot?... thats a joke. Selfish?. Your kidding, right? the only selfishness is yours wanting more more more all the time.Clearly your intent is to throw a tantrum until you get more than you deserve and then you'll continue to make dragons look as pititful as yourself. Now instead of continuing your pathetic, childish, arrogant rantings I would think you'd be better served to focus your energy toward asking Tulga to explain the disparity and they working with the knowledge they provide instead of trying to work with faked numbers.

[JDavidC]

JDavidC, please don't take this the wrong way, but you don't know what you are talking about. In total seriousness I suggest that you start up a biped character (you getcharacter 5 slots on regular shards, and, if you are on the NA shards, as many as you want on Blight) and try to level gatherer/miner to 100. The very easiest way to do this is to lvl blacksmith to lvl 100 (which is NOT an easy task), then to lvl both gatherer and miner using tier V resources. While this makes tiers 1,2,3 go by like a breeze[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img] it doesn't help as much with tier IV, and tier V will take you about as long as it origionally took you to level blacksmith to lvl 100.

OK, honesty and diplomacy with disagreement, now THIS is how you go aboutdisagreeing withothers. If you were trying to go for, say tier 4 buildings instead of tier 6, would you still need to level a lot of other crafting classes? I may still be up for a grind to tier 6 with some additional difficulties (i.e. levelling more crafting classes)as I'll have some t4 or whatever silos on hand for storing processed goods (and to lessen the amount of times I run to trainers to switch schools... may as well use the lower tier silos on the way up to deal with inconveniences at higher levels). Even if I do end up having to level crafting classes, I kinda like making my characters uber at everything, and I can put up with long grinds on one type of raw resource.

As for the Standish Deluxe cargo disk, with the right setup there may be a way around its lack of teleport problems. At that level, it may involve dragging it to a teleport gate, and then grounding it while you make a few runs transferring the stuff to a silo. Its high speed would still help to offset being unable to teleport. It's not an 'I Win' button by a longshot, but I still think it would be very handy if used properly. After I get the stuff to silos, I can either go on getting more resources... or when I have enough.. I'd port and switch to a different disk and construction school and do mass processing.

[LaughingOtter]

As for the Standish Deluxe cargo disk, with the right setup there may be a way around its lack of teleport problems. At that level, it may involve dragging it to a teleport gate, and then grounding it while you make a few runs transferring the stuff to a silo.

Which is exactly what "a storage structure of some kind within reasonable walking distance" means...

[Seranthor]

two classes get standish deluxe sir... Gatherer and Miner... it also requires level 100 IN one of those schools and it requires it to be the ACTIVE school. So, in order to even be able to equip that disk you have to have ALREADY busted your tail. That is all.

[JDavidC]

Laughingotter, that would make it superior to the Tarbash for transporting resources. If the resources aren't in 'reasonable walking distance', then a tarbash wouldn't help you much either by your logic, as it would slow you down more and you'd have to walk slowly for AGES. Would it hurt you to try to phrase your answers a bit more diplomatically instead of getting to borderline condescending? Don't take this the wrong way, but I find the way you're making some points to be quite irritating and bordering on breaking the rules.

Seranthor, the disk is more of a bonus, not something easy to get to... and besides, the whole point of getting miner/gatherer to 100 is to get optimal on processing high level resources, so it'd be getting done anyway. I don't mind really long grinds as long as I can have fun seeing character advancement of some form.

Dragons want to have silos that work with their method of construction. e.g. smaller footprint, multi stack options, and for higher tiers, certainly turn up the resource requirements a lot in order to do this (personally I wouldn't mind seeing t6 dragon storage chambers double in all unit requirements if their footprint was massively reduced).

Dragons want additional things put in place so they the difficulties they face aren't annoying ones due to lack of appropriate equipment/structures in game, but other ones which would be similar to what bipeds face (e.g. figuring out how to level multiple craft schools). For resource gathering and processing, I'd want to see new dragon craft class(es), buffing 1 class to be uber at everything would be grossly unfair to bipeds. Besides, more classes for dragons = more time for them to concentrate on levelling a dragon instead of having to make a new character to have the fun of levelling.

Finally, could people PLEASE calm down? I am amazed at the amount of people that are ready to bite others' heads off over one issue. I see far too many posts being made that are rude. If you have a point to make, it is NOT hard to make that point and be polite (see gopher65's posts in this thread [Y]).

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

gopher,

Fix your quote tag it's buggering up the thread! *kick* ;)

[JDavidC]

I've seen that problem with quotes. You just need to get rid of a [ / q u o t e ] tag that doesn't have a starting [ q u o t e ] tag.

[Seranthor]

diplomatically instead of getting to borderline condescending? Don't take this the wrong way, but I find the way you're making some points to be quite irritating and bordering on breaking the rules.

Condescending is NOT breaking the rules, if you think it is then report it and let the mods sort it out.

Dragons want to have silos that work with their method of construction. e.g. smaller footprint, multi stack options, and for higher tiers, certainly turn up the resource requirements a lot in order to do this (personally I wouldn't mind seeing t6 dragon storage chambers double in all unit requirements if their footprint was massively reduced).

with who's method of construction? multi-stack silos? whygive to them alone, why not give to the spellcrafter, the alchemist, the confectioner. Once you start making exceptions for one race/class then you negate thepurpose of silos. want to store multiple stacks of something build a consigner. Turn up the resource requirements? Didn't they just turn them down after much gnashing of dragon teeth over resource requirements?

Dragons want additional things put in place so they the difficulties they face aren't annoying ones due to lack of appropriate equipment/structures in game, but other ones which would be similar to what bipeds face (e.g. figuring out how to level multiple craft schools). For resource gathering and processing, I'd want to see new dragon craft class(es), buffing 1 class to be uber at everything would be grossly unfair to bipeds. Besides, more classes for dragons = more time for them to concentrate on levelling a dragon instead of having to make a new character to have the fun of levelling.

So your suggesting continue to devote even more developer time to dragons further abusing classes that have been utterly ignored for now approaching 2 years? Are you aware that there are MANY playing their dragons now instead of bipeds to feel some of the dev love that has been showered on dragons?

Finally, could people PLEASE calm down? I am amazed at the amount of people that are ready to bite others' heads off over one issue. I see far too many posts being made that are rude. If you have a point to make, it is NOT hard to make that point and be polite (see gopher65's posts in this thread [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-21.gif[/img]).

Its not hard to write a post that isn't rude, but there are those out there that are of the feeling that if you dont agree with them and dont genuflect to their position that dragons are so abused then they think your rude and they launch their attacks.

You sound like your on Chaos, if you are then ask in MP about any dragon t5 pawnbrokers I'm interested in the answer you get.

[LaughingOtter]

If you think my comments have in any way violated the rules of this forum, then by all means pursue whatever remedy you feel you are entitled to. One should never hesitate to embrace educational oppertunities.

In point of fact, it was clear to me that you are not speaking from a position of experience with regards to the deluxe Standish. The logistics of using one are not fully appreciated by most of the players who have not levelled miner/gatherer. I simply pointed out the primary reason it is, under most circumstances, inferior to the Tarbash for biped construction. Basing any portion of your argument on the usage of the deluxe Standish means your premise is seriously flawed from the outset.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

There are good and bad points to lvling dragon craft. Pluses and minuses to the differenet buildings. However, even with these I still thing the silos are over sized for the higher teirs.

I can understand some dragons NOT wanting to wait for this to be fixed when a dragon lair can not be changed easily compared to a biped lair. I decided I wanted to change my lair so that my crystal shaper was at the start, a biped would have had to move a couple of buildings at the most, I had to pull down my entire lair (which okay was mostly 1 silo 7-8 corridors a t2 connie and the crystal shaper).

These silos sizes are wrong IMO. 9 square spaces for 100k cap vs 1 square for 25k cap means that their is NO reason to EVER build a higher silo. Surely this is not what the developers want? Why bother to even put in the higher silo options! If anyone builds one it will be just to say they have, not because its ideal. For those just starting to design their lairs its important to know if these silo changes are possible. Planning a lair carefully from top to bottom is the best way to get the most out of the avaiable space (spent over 30 hours planning and replanning mine - even to the point of making paper cutouts for the buildings - before you think i'm crazy i had a blast doing it, so each to his/her own [:P] ). Changes in 2-3 months time could mean a LOT of fustration.

Also, you guys are STILL using the t6 silo as your basis of comparsion. DON'T. How many T6 silos are their for bipeds compared to T2/T4. Those should be your comparison points. I would be happier with higher resource cost for making silos if the footprint was reduced in size. I don't not believe a 2 square size is right however, the bigger silos should take more room that that but a t6 shouldn't take 9 spares!

[Adwene Blightstalker]

Look let me put this another way.

A T6 silo takes 9 spaces in a lair.
4 T1 silos WITH 2 T/+ intersections take up 6 spaces in a lair.

Both options give you 100k bulk capacity, the 4 T1 silos give you the option of having different resources AND takes up less space, and its more flexiable as to where you put those 4 silos.

Silos footprints in dragon lairs are BROKEN. Its that simple. It needs to be changed. Either make the footprints smaller, or increase the stack capacity per tier (1 per teir) and keep current footprints. If you increase the stack limit, the extra 20% dragons get over bipeds could be removed.

[Seranthor]

How do you justify multi-stack silos? I'm extremely curious.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

If you read my 2 posts, you will see HOW i justify it.

[Seranthor]

forgive my impetuousness and my density, spell it out for me so I can understand it and possibly support it.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

A T6 silo takes 9 spaces in a lair - 100k - 1 stack capcity
4 T1 silos WITH 2 T/+ intersections take up 6 spaces in a lair - 100k - 4 stack capcity
6 T1 silos WITH 3 T/+ intersectons take up 9 spaces in a lair - 150k -6 stack capacity

There is NO REASON to EVER BUILD A T6 SILO.

Clear now? This is broken. If you can't see that, your being delibrately dense.

[Seranthor]

Oh its very clear to me that you believe that its broken, however, silos by definition are large bulk storage of a SINGLE item. a single item capacity is the trade off or the massive bulk. Thinkstationary tarbash disk. IF you are demanding mult-stack silos for dragons can you justify giving the same to say um, alchemists, certainly they need a lot of different things to make their potions and dyes, or to that tinkerer that is making your disks for you, hmm? Should you decide to deny the same to those classes how can you truly justify giving them to yourself? Additionally there is nothing stopping you from clustering t1 disks in an arrangement as you've mentioned above. In fact thats an intelligent way to plan them.



just a thought.

[JDavidC]

After Seranthor found me on Chaos using a very sneaky trick... he explained that the tone that I perceived he was using on this thread and the one he was using was actually quite different. On closer inspection of his sig... the only craft school (and I'm talking about all races) he has NOT got to lvl 100 is the borked confectioner class.

I ended up looking at 2 biped plots and 1 dragon lair he built solo (the 2 biped plots being nowhere near any portalsO_O )... Well, he'll know about the difference between the types of silo more than I would anyway.

There is a multi-stack 'silo' available to all races you can use to get started... a consigner (this will require some planning as you're very limited in stacks you can put on, but it's still a nice alternative). You'll need a little money to make this work as well as the planning I mentioned to get the stuff you need to make the construction units. After a shop gets put into my lair, I can start storing raw resources that can be processed by it into a consigner chamber I'll have to build. Until then, I'll have to use biped silos on a guild plot to get things started. BTW, do bipeds have a fair bit of trouble when starting out on to construction as well?

There is one thing that is a bit odd about dragon silos, they have a depth component meaning you can sacrifice a bit of space on several floors, instead of a lot on 1 floor to build one. I'm not sure if that's better (although the footprint requirement is still a large issue), but I'm still seeing only T1 silos going up in dragon lairs, including Seranthor's dragon's lair (the consigners and, later on, the halls, are used instead for multi-stack storage). Higher tier dragon silos just don't seem to be in demand. As for small footprint silos with multiple stacks, that would work out IF and only if the construction requirements got ramped up by at least 3 times (otherwise bipeds will quite rightly call out foul). If you're really desperate, you can go after lairs and halls, but that seems like overkill just for storage.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

Oh its very clear to me that you believe that its broken, however, silos by definition are large bulk storage of a SINGLE item. a single item capacity is the trade off or the massive bulk.

Where does it say in your dictionary that silos are single item storage? thats a GAME defination not a RL one. Look at the dragon silos, all of them you can WALK into, unlike biped ones (i always wondered about biped ones... i mean does the stuff fall on their heads when they pull out things from the bottom?)

There is no reason to build T3+ silo in a dragon lair functionality wise. The only time you'd build a T2 one is when it didn't affect the floor plan below. To me thats wrong. When it's clearly better to build 6 T1 silos than 1 T6 because of space issues?? I don't care about resources... I don't care if they make them multi stack, I just want them made BETTER than what they are now (smaller or more funtionality), so we have a reason to build them. Adding stack capcity is 1 option, reducing the footprint is another. I'm sure other options are not occuring to me.

I don't want dragon lairs to be 'copies' of biped lairs. No biped that truely understood how much space these silo's take up would mind some adjustment. The thing is finding a balanced one!

Your problem is you focus on what you preieve to be a weakness in someones arguement and try to exploit that weakness and throw out the rest of what they say, because of your own agenda. I KNOW you believe that dragons have had a lot of lovin and that any fixes or adjustments should go to bipeds now. This change/ fix/ whatever could be critical to some dragons planning lairs. Since unlike bipeds doing small changes to the start ofa lair may result in having to pull down the entire lair. IMO this needs to be looked at, increasedcapcity of the silos compared to bipeds (which i'm happy for them to remove if they do other fixes) was a bandaid solution at best.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

Well blow me down... I actually went to the trouble of deleting my lower buildings and my grandhall (unbuilt of course) to check out the actual sizes of the footprints and the best way of chaining the silos to maximise storage with the T3 + silos....

I found the T6 silo's foot print isn't really 9 spaces as everyone (including myself) have reported it... its 12!!!!

The actual 'lair' blocks of each silo are as follows

T1 - 1
T2 - 2
T3 - 4
T4 - 6
T5 - 8
T6 - 12

How is it not broken when a player can fit in 8 T1 silos WITH 4 corridors into the same space as 1 T6 silo?
- Thats 200k capacity with 8 stacks VS 100k capacity with 1 stack....

A 'quick' fix for this might be to change it so that they use the same types of lower footprints but increase resource costs.

IE,
T1 - stays same
T2 - stays same
T3 - same as 'old'T2 - increased cost to build
T4 - same as 'old'T3
T5 - same as 'old' T3 - increased cost to build
T6 - same as 'old' T4

At least this way the T6 silo will only take up 6 lair squares and thats the same as what you'd fit with 4T1 silos and 2 corridors space wise....

[Seranthor]

Bipeds can walk into their as well if they know what they are doing as well, but so?
Building 6 t1 silos would get you 150k bulk capacity, building 1 t6 would get you 100k bulk capacity... of course it would be better to build 6 t1's.... its the same with bipeds lass, 6 t1 biped silos are 120k bulk, 1 t6 biped is 80k.

Perhaps you have failed in the past to understand changes ALREADY made to dragon silos to sate the dragons.... 1) bulk capacity was raised 20%, 2) resource requirements to construct was dropped drastically. Now you want to change that AND get smaller footprints ALSO?How much more do you want?... or are you goingto throw inwith the cabal that are just not going to be satisfied with anything dragons have and insist on'gimme more, gimme more, I know you gave me what I wanted last week, but I dont want it anymore, change it'

No biped that truely understood how much space these silo's take up would mind some adjustment.

Are you suggesting that I know nothing about biped construction or of being a biped? or are you suggesting I dont know anything about dragon construction and/or of dragon silos?

Your problem is you focus on what you preieve to be a weakness in someones arguement and try to exploit that weakness

Isn't that how you demonstrate the flaws in someone's argument? you certainly dont focus on anything they may be possibly correct on, now do you?

because of your own agenda.

Sure I have an agenda, I have never denied it. Part of which is to end thewhinings of ill-informed dragons about certain things. This being one of them. Perhaps you have failed miserably to pick upsome information as well. The longer that the devs have to spend on catching dragon tearsthe longer we have to wait for other things that have been leftlargelyignoredsince 2004.

This change/ fix/ whatever could be critical to some dragons planning lairs.

Sure, and so could intelligent lair planning, it does happen. Many dragons have thought longand hard in planning their lairs. Look around lass, they exist on Chaos.

Since unlike bipeds doing small changes to the start ofa lair may result in having to pull down the entire lair

Been there, solved that problem, its call thinking before acting.

increasedcapcity of the silos compared to bipeds (which i'm happy for them to remove if they do other fixes) was a bandaid solution at best.

Dont forget the 20% bulk boost as well.

There is nothing that prevents you from blocking off parts of your lair for 'future development' is there?

I'm horribly sorry that you think that lairshaping is soooo broken, you may be right, you might not be. However, I personally DONT believe like you. It IS also time not to be so d*mn selfish,and lets letthe devs work on some of the other things thatthey need to.