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Thread: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

  1. #1
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    Default My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Many dragons are very concerned about spending hoard and of course making hoard. This concept is impressed into the little ones at a very young age. It's all consuming. Hoard fuels our attacks, it gives us 4 armor and 4 braeth skill, per soft cap.

    While I agree that hoard is very important. Spending it is also very important. Dragons are simply working at half or quarter efficiency without using Gold Rage, Silver Strike, and Shield of Gold. Drain strike now costs hoard, Breath of Flame Burst costs hoard. Sounds like a lot of hoard burning right? It is. However those very abilities are what makes the Withered Aegis cringe. Those attacks and powers make dragons the boogeymen of Istaria's beasts.

    How does one fuel this war machine/addiction? Easy I say!. hunt wolves and beetles. They have the highest hoard drop rate in the game. While taking time to specifically hunt for hoard, spend hoard. Use attacks to kill faster. there isn't a single attack in any tier, that the hoard drops do not make up for the expenditure. However, my one failing here is...I'm not certain if the wolves and beetles drop as well at lower tiers as they do in t4 and t5.

    I for one attempted to reach the hoard soft cap for level 70 and then stopped worrying about it. once I reached level 100 I began commiting mass genocide upon the Icy Dire Wolf populations. Now Giant Ice Beetles may work better. I would pull as many as i could at a time. Activate Shiled of Gold, spiked scales, and refreshing breeze...they for the most part killed themselves on my hide. Combine that with a few point blank Area of Effect spells, breath of flame burst and perhaps the faction breath. I used haord attacks also. You have a winning combination. Loot away! you have my guarantee any 1 hoard item you pick up will make up for most if not all you spent in that battle. The rest is all profit.

    The old adage "You have to spend money, to make money." It's quite true. You also have to spend hoard to make hoard. it speeds it up quite a bit.

    I would love additions to this thread to help folks at lower levels (t3 and lower). Since I never really worried about my hoard cap at such a tender age.
    My way is only one way to do this, I'm sure others have trick of the trade. I merely wanted to post this so that dragons and would be dragons don't have to worry about how to build up their hoard supply so much anymore.
    Ignem Infernum - Abi in malum rem.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverblaze View Post
    Dragons are simply working at half or quarter efficiency without using Gold Rage, Silver Strike, and Shield of Gold.
    /em puts on player hat (please allow me to just this once)

    I think one thing that will help is to change this mentality and NOT teach it to new players.

    Personally, when I play my dragon (who is between adult and ancient levels, so perhaps in a "sweet spot" level wise, I don't know), I rarely use Gold Rage and Silver Strike, and frankly have never used Shield of Gold at all.

    I do not rely on these abilities for day to day hunting. I go for mobs in single or double pulls that range anywhere within my current "trophy" range (meaning my level up to 4 higher than me). I use hoard abilities when I can to save my backside, but by no means every combat.

    If a combat is going south on me, I'll fly up and get out of it. Might seem cheap to some, but I consider it tactics. Using this method, last night I gained half a levels worth of experience in about 3 hours of game play (if I remember how long I was online, that is).

    So while the suggestions for what to fight are great, I think one of the issues is that people teach young dragons to rely on hoard abilities too much. Is it a valid play style? Absolutely. Nothing stopping someone from playing this way. But it also does not HAVE to be the only way of doing things, and I think it is a disservice to growing dragons to teach them that it is the only way, because it most assuredly is not.

    /em takes player hat back off and goes back to fixing things

  3. #3

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    hmmm
    gold rage,silver strike, gold shield are a part of my dragon identity.
    I worked hard on/for that.
    It`s in my blood to fight with that- not exactly the way Silverblaze describes,
    but very similar.
    It makes me a dragon. A Lunus.
    And I shall teach the little ones to do so too.
    It was given to us- why not use it the way it is most effective?

  4. #4

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    What I did when i had to start afresh on a new shard was I completed the GR 1 quest. I didn't complete the 2-7 quests until i was high lvl when it was easier to obtain the hoard. I still had a powerful attack (from the adv stat rises) using GR 1.

    One question to ask is there sufficent hoard drops at lower levels? As Ignem suggested it is easy to get hoard at higher levels. Perhaps more emphasis needs to be given on providing better hoard drops at tier 1 and tier 2?
    Chasing
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  5. #5

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Velea View Post
    /em puts on player hat (please allow me to just this once)
    Well, of course.

    My combat strategy was similar to Velea's when I was working Favoran's levels up; as a hatchling, and even somewhat as an adult, use of Silver Strike/Gold Rage was pretty much taboo. XD Now, though, I find myself using Silver Strike almost every battle, since the loss of 40 hoard was never too bad in exchange for the extra damage. But I've never gotten to the point that I would use every hoard move every change I got.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    The Giant ice beetle hoard drop rate is just insane.
    I have a Lunus alt, that was lvl 91 with 2 million hoard on tuesday, just before the patch. I have been hunting the beetle just after tha maintenance, and tonight she reached lvl 100 and 9 millions hoard. I have not hunted to level, I have not hunted to get more hoard ; I just hunted for the forms and this was a nice side effect. So, I'm sorry, but for high level dragons, the use of hoard abilities doesn't matter much. You can easily get 500k in a could hours of hunting. How long does it take to spend that ?

    I also have a dragon on Chaos. I leveled him and got his hoard pretty easily, and I had no friends there to give it to me ; I simply hunted grass beetles for a couple of days and got the 250k hoard needed. So, in my opinion, I think it's very easy to get hoard. I started hunting Giant ice beetles with my Lunus at lvl 70. I stopped playing my dragon on Chaos at lvl 35 (I think). But I've not really paid attention to hoard drop between those two caps ; maybe someone could tell me how hard it is to get hoard then.

  7. #7

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Hoard. A dragon's best friend and primary power source.

    Sure, hoard's not too bad to get when you're in the right level ranges. At 75-100, giant ice beetles are an easy way to get the hoard level up to where it should be and replace what one has spent while hunting. It's a well known fact (or should be now) that beetles and wolves are, by far, the best thing to hunt when looking for shinies to put on the pile.

    Who's to say this won't change though? Who's going to guarantee that there will always be a good supply of hoard? Things change. That's half of what keeps stuff interesting.

    And when tagging on a hoard cost to existing attacks to previously cost nothing to use, the demand for hoard is going to shoot up drastically. Sure, some might avoid gold shield, gold rage, silver strike, etc. but with the added cost of hoard to drain strike, there's another attack the hoard conscious dragon is going to have to avoid. His duels with mobs will take longer. His effeciency goes down, and so on. Tag hoard cost onto a few other attacks and soon, he'll have no choice but to put out the hoard attacks just to stand up to a mob his level. And so, we add more dragons to the ones already farming the beetles and wolves.

    The field for each mob is large and, generally, one doesn't have to worry about stepping on another player's toes when it comes to farming the hoard needed. With more dragons needing the loot, however, another dilemma rises. If it's too crowded in the field, then, yes, you can wait for another time. What about those few people who only have a certain window of time to collect thier treasures? Namely those few who are restricted to the high trafic times?

    They could craft. Scales and claws make good hoard. Beetles take considerably less time, though, in the hoard-scalemaking ratio. Same thing when it comes to choosing another mob to substitute either the giant ice beetles or icy dire wolves.

    Yes. Hoard's generally easy to get nowadays with some time invested at the beetles. At least for now.

    Such are my thoughts on the matter.

  8. #8

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Zexoin View Post
    You can easily get 500k in a could hours of hunting. How long does it take to spend that ?
    if i use shield of gold? about twenty minutes. literally. i have burned over 100k hoard every single time i have used SoG. if i pull more than three wolves at a time, i have to use it to stay alive. do the math.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    I think one thing that will help is to change this mentality and NOT teach it to new players.

    Personally, when I play my dragon (who is between adult and ancient levels, so perhaps in a "sweet spot" level wise, I don't know), I rarely use Gold Rage and Silver Strike, and frankly have never used Shield of Gold at all.

    I do not rely on these abilities for day to day hunting. I go for mobs in single or double pulls that range anywhere within my current "trophy" range (meaning my level up to 4 higher than me). I use hoard abilities when I can to save my backside, but by no means every combat.

    If a combat is going south on me, I'll fly up and get out of it. Might seem cheap to some, but I consider it tactics. Using this method, last night I gained half a levels worth of experience in about 3 hours of game play (if I remember how long I was online, that is).

    So while the suggestions for what to fight are great, I think one of the issues is that people teach young dragons to rely on hoard abilities too much. Is it a valid play style? Absolutely. Nothing stopping someone from playing this way. But it also does not HAVE to be the only way of doing things, and I think it is a disservice to growing dragons to teach them that it is the only way, because it most assuredly is not.
    I agree with you and I'll bring my experience on this:

    - I was there and had to grind for 350,000 hoard a day, since this was the amount of hoard of mine that self deleted every day.
    I had to stay up to 4am to farm that huge amount and needed to beg guildies to help me at it. Hence my compete adversion at wasting hoard.

    - Hoard is ... to be hoarded. Now wasted. Hoard is a dragon "power", status, everything. Playing little balance to have an outcome and income like hoard is a middle rank in society modern clerk bank account is nothing relevant.

    You read of dragons with immense mountains of hoard, you won't read of dragons carefully phoning in bank to see if their monthly paycheck arrived so that they can buy 1 piece of forniture.

    - A game has to provide for means of backup. Some mobs *right now* are impossible for a dragon to kill if not using gold rage. And it looks like the current mood is to make everything hoard based. There should be a system for a dragon short of hoard to fight, hoard would be what makes us mighty not what makes up "barely survive" (try killing a veteran healer mob that of course links to a damage dealer mob to see what I talk about).

    - The "LOL go farm beetles" sound so tasty but:

    1) Little detail, not all dragons are level 80+ to kill those

    2) The rest of the mobs are "normal" and very stringy at hoard drops.

    3) Lower level beetles are not anomalous like ice beetles and wolves.

    4) One day will come when they'll correct those ice beetle and wolves to be like all the other mobs, that is nerf the drop rate by 1000%. How much can I bet that the same day, we won't have our hoard abilities correspondingly reduced in cost by 1000%?


    Finally, all those who have it so easy are typically:

    - Hoard maxed already (hence mobs do so little damage that they can farm very fast) and ancient

    - Triple teched scales. Good job, you fight against mobs who get stunned again and again or do no damage, all sounds so easy then.

    - Important guild, rating 150+ bipeds who liberally level new classes by killing thousands of mobs and then give the dragons the hoard drops. 50k hoard a day gift makes everything look easy. OTHERS have to go and kill those beetles, I can talk about how easy hoard is to get instead.


    The Giant ice beetle hoard drop rate is just insane.
    ... and will be brought in line sooner or later.

    Tieing a "forever" mechanism to a blatantly bugged drop rate is just... absurd. Shortsighted.

    Where is stated, black on white, that once nerfed the hoard drops we'll have our abilities adjusted?

    You nicely go there and get 7-8 levels by killing 1 bugged mob. Fine.

    I nicely go help my guild mates slay the epic mobs and burn *hundreds of thousands* in an evening, for pieces that will be given for free to the guild members.

    I don't find the true need to have to grind my eyes out just to do what all my other guild mates do for free.

    Not once they multistriked for a fee, and in case you never noticed, a paladin + Boar Mask is as terrificant as a dragon spamming hoard left and right, for free.


    if i use shield of gold? about twenty minutes. literally. i have burned over 100k hoard every single time i have used SoG. if i pull more than three wolves at a time, i have to use it to stay alive. do the math.
    And here you go. Those who use their dragon against non toy mobs and have a group depending on them (get aggro off an epic mob, use gold shield. Always spam every hoard attack at cooldown... you see how hoard goes down the drain).

    Same for grinding Satyr isles in a group. Hoard expense galore. 300k hoard burned in two evenings for *a part* of a new scale set.


    Basically, in one of the almost non existant number of games where no one got a caster bar, dragons have a depletable resource, and only them and just to perform *as* good as the others. And people supporting to use it mindlessy.
    Vahrokh Vain - Ancient dragon level 100 adv 100 craft 34M of untainted, fireworks and other crap free hoard.
    Isarion - Reaver Healer Spiritist, many craft classes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Verywell said Vahrokh! Its very easy for those who have a good guild that can farm day an night, have loads of time, and are high enough not only to take on these horde rich mobs but to do it at an insane pace, to say its no biggy. But for us lower end folks, who dont have a guild to support them and are too lowlevel to take advantage of these mobs before they're fixed, and dont have time to spend on farming horde just so they can play their dragons, are throughly screwed. The spend some to earn some idea doesnt really work out well when you dont have a source that is capable of making up for what you loose. I can honestly see many folks leaving the game because they are unable to progress their character.

    Why not do something similar to what someone else said? Why not offer two versions? For instance offer the regular drain strike, and once completed players are offered tkhe option of gaining Imporved Drain Strike, which is better but cost horde by the quest giver. Players can have the option of having both available (with shared timers of course) or just the non horde version.
    The quest for the improved version doesnt necessarily have to have completely different mobs as the original, maybe to prove you can have it you have to go kill a named of the same type of mob. I.E. If you have to kill 20 slate golems for drain strike, you have to kill the named slate golem for the improved version.

  11. #11

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Velea View Post
    /em puts on player hat (please allow me to just this once)

    I think one thing that will help is to change this mentality and NOT teach it to new players.

    Personally, when I play my dragon (who is between adult and ancient levels, so perhaps in a "sweet spot" level wise, I don't know), I rarely use Gold Rage and Silver Strike, and frankly have never used Shield of Gold at all.

    I do not rely on these abilities for day to day hunting. I go for mobs in single or double pulls that range anywhere within my current "trophy" range (meaning my level up to 4 higher than me). I use hoard abilities when I can to save my backside, but by no means every combat.

    If a combat is going south on me, I'll fly up and get out of it. Might seem cheap to some, but I consider it tactics. Using this method, last night I gained half a levels worth of experience in about 3 hours of game play (if I remember how long I was online, that is).

    So while the suggestions for what to fight are great, I think one of the issues is that people teach young dragons to rely on hoard abilities too much. Is it a valid play style? Absolutely. Nothing stopping someone from playing this way. But it also does not HAVE to be the only way of doing things, and I think it is a disservice to growing dragons to teach them that it is the only way, because it most assuredly is not.

    /em takes player hat back off and goes back to fixing things
    your a Odd hachie

    When i was a hachie i wondered up to Valcor at lv 13 !
    at lv 50 i picked a fight with a high level topaz golem
    now i contently get in over my head and love gold rage ss and Sog

    and if a Hachie ever said i cant use that attack to me i would tell the hachie to continue to craft and meet back hear in 1 hour and i gave him some treats
    Imperial bell Imperial septor Coffer

    Hoard with the exception of t 1 and t 6 drops nicely so i can aford to help any hachling out
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  12. #12

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Everyone else is typing their two cents so I may as well join the crowd...

    Radier spends about 30 minutes - 2 hours farming Giant Ice Beetles every day. As such, her hoard steadily rose from 8 millon to 16 million over the course of four weeks (a large amount of this time was spent moving, oi) with no guild help whatsoever. I make a point to donate a couple hundred thousand in hoard to hatchies every month - every week if I hunt enough. She has no problems maintaining and building hoard.

    That said, much of this relies on the Giant Ice Beetles and their drop rate. Sometimes they are stingy and only hand out trophies and forms for an hour. Sometimes they will drop two Exquisite Orbs per kill. They are very inconsistent, as expected, and I for one find nothing wrong with their drop rate whatsoever. If the devs plan on NERFING these beetles then they need to meet us halfway and remove some cost from hoard-burning abilities. Otherwise you will have every dragon in Istaria spending 3/4 of their available time online hunting anything that drops hoard. This doesn't bode well for lower level adults and hatchlings especially who have a requirement to meet. Giant Ice Beetles only have a few spawn areas compared to Icy Dires - can't they be left alone?

    Radier is a Lunus and she proudly uses Gold Rage, Silver Strike, Drain Strike, and to lesser extent Shield of Gold and Breath of Flame Burst in battles that call for massive damage. She will continue to do so because she is a dragon of melee pursuit. Devs showed much love towards dragons with recent updates but charging us more for hoard abilities and nerfing supply? Unacceptable. I can understand relying on bipeds for food and various gifts but relying on them for hoard, which is only of use to dragons, is insulting.

    I strongly urge devs to consider dragon players when deciding on this move.

  13. #13

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Radier View Post
    I strongly urge devs to consider dragon players when deciding on this move.
    I don't think the devs are planning it (yet?), someone simply made mention of the possibility. Thankfully, because I'd hate to see those beetles loose their value as a source of reliable hoard.

    You use Drain Strike? I used to use that every battle, until they added hoard. Haven't touched it since.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Favoran View Post
    I don't think the devs are planning it (yet?), someone simply made mention of the possibility. Thankfully, because I'd hate to see those beetles loose their value as a source of reliable hoard.

    You use Drain Strike? I used to use that every battle, until they added hoard. Haven't touched it since.
    When it was free, I only used it as last skill, to basically not just stand in autoattack. Now that it costs hoard, I tried it 2-3 times and shelved it for good. Not missing it a bit.
    Vahrokh Vain - Ancient dragon level 100 adv 100 craft 34M of untainted, fireworks and other crap free hoard.
    Isarion - Reaver Healer Spiritist, many craft classes.

  15. #15

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Favoran View Post
    I don't think the devs are planning it (yet?), someone simply made mention of the possibility. Thankfully, because I'd hate to see those beetles loose their value as a source of reliable hoard.

    You use Drain Strike? I used to use that every battle, until they added hoard. Haven't touched it since.
    I'd beg on my scaled knees for devs to leave our hoard drops alone but... y'know, proud Lunus and stuff, no begging.

    I use Drain Strike mostly when fighting Elite Blights and only if the circumstance is dire. Sometimes all it takes is a few added HP to down those arm-swinging buggers.

  16. #16

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Hello, Lady V's Dragon :-)

    Back on topic, I have this to say:

    It is a matter of playing style. Some enjoy burning hoard, some enjoy hoarding it, some don't think about it one way or the other. Because of this, I think any changes to rate of drop or rate of burn should be handled delicately. That doesn't mean I think changes should be discouraged, simply that if they are considered then consider too that these diametrically opposed styles are currently able to co-exist.

    Not that I have heard any developers talk about hoard changes, or at least if they have I don't recall it.

    I myself fall somewhere between hoarding and not thinking about it. I *rarely* use hoard because for myself I feel normal hunting takes more skill without it, and I like to challenge myself. I also do not want to farm anything, much less hoard, so I need to be sure I am not using more than I am gaining.

    I am not the least bit hesitant to use it when I need to, I just like to ride the fine edge between pulling as much as I can absolutely handle, and more than I can handle ;-) I regularly pull wolves and certain other 100+ rating critters a few at a time, and Ice Beatles and Emerald Golems five or six at a time (sometimes more). Spiked Scales is my one Hoard splurge, on occasion.

    And then, of course, there is big game. Obviously I burn hoard by the clawfulls when fighting the likes of SoG and friends :-)

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    - Albert Einstein

  17. #17
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    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    The other day i made a new Hatchie to test out the 'hoard problem' since i no longer worry about hoard i thought i mite be missing somthing.

    Now to do this test i gave my hatchie the ability to fight but not the ability to craft.
    Also i gave him 500k Hoard (so i could use every ability whenever it was up)

    He's just passed Lvl 20 and done all the T1 hunting abilities.

    Total hoard used 83k (yes i did get some hoard while hunting but didn't add it to the hoard pile)

    So for a Hatchie using every ability to hunt upto Lvl 20 uses less than 100k, this seem fair to me.

    100k could easily be gotten by crafting or just standing in Brist for a while

    I didn't need to use the abilities as often as i did, i just did it to see how much i could burn thru.

    I can see why Hatchies dont want to use hoard, as they think they need it for the RoP, but in all honesty if you've got your craft upto lvl 40 (rough figure for optimal RoP) then you have no excuses why you couldn't get the 250k mark by hunting and dropping craftables into the hoard pile.

    I'm not a crafter type of person so if sombody wants to make a hatchie and craft upto 40 to see the hoard results, i'm sure many would like to know.

    So again for me personally, i cant see a problem with hoard usage at low levels. (just my opinion though dont flame me)

  18. #18
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    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    The other day i made a new Hatchie to test out the 'hoard problem' since i no longer worry about hoard i thought i mite be missing somthing.

    Now to do this test i gave my hatchie the ability to fight but not the ability to craft.
    Also i gave him 500k Hoard (so i could use every ability whenever it was up)

    He's just passed Lvl 20 and done all the T1 hunting abilities.

    Total hoard used 83k (yes i did get some hoard while hunting but didn't add it to the hoard pile)

    So for a Hatchie using every ability to hunt upto Lvl 20 uses less than 100k, this seem fair to me.

    100k could easily be gotten by crafting or just standing in Brist for a while

    I didn't need to use the abilities as often as i did, i just did it to see how much i could burn thru.

    I can see why Hatchies dont want to use hoard, as they think they need it for the RoP, but in all honesty if you've got your craft upto lvl 40 (rough figure for optimal RoP) then you have no excuses why you couldn't get the 250k mark by hunting and dropping craftables into the hoard pile.

    I'm not a crafter type of person so if sombody wants to make a hatchie and craft upto 40 to see the hoard results, i'm sure many would like to know.

    So again for me personally, i cant see a problem with hoard usage at low levels. (just my opinion though dont flame me)
    You tainted your test by giving the hatchie 500k hoard and effectively "twinking" it.
    It's like giving a capable guy 500k dollars and then talk about how it's easy to make 1M dollars. Have him start from zero instead.

    Hatchies are disadvantaged by low hoard values because their lack of scale slots make them way weak against mobs and you just made a test on a level 20 hatchie giving him 41 level hoard...
    Vahrokh Vain - Ancient dragon level 100 adv 100 craft 34M of untainted, fireworks and other crap free hoard.
    Isarion - Reaver Healer Spiritist, many craft classes.

  19. #19

    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    Quote Originally Posted by Radier View Post
    If the devs plan on NERFING these beetles then they need to meet us halfway
    As far as I know, as of right now there has been no discussion of changing hoard drops in either direction. I can't promise that won't change in the future, of course, but there would have to be a very good reason to do so.
    Klaus Wulfenbach
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: My Contribution to the Hoard dillemna

    My test was more to actually see how much hoard is needed to get a hatchie from 0 - 20.
    The 85k thats needed can very easily be gotten from crafting (yes you have to craft anyway if you want to do the RoP)

    Also lets not forget that alot of the hoard abilities cant be done untill your around Lvl 15.

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