View Poll Results: Should dragons have deferent Adventurer Schools

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Thread: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrough View Post
    I don't see WHERE you would find consencus on this. Every book/world I've read usually has a different take on each dragon color. Unless you're going with the D&D descriptions of the dragons, which I tend to not like, it's rare to see colors have overlapping personalities consistantly between worlds. (with the exception that reds and blacks usually are very nasty. XD)

    This is why I think suddenly putting in a guide for personalities based on color would be a bad idea. Lots of people have created characters outside of your 'norm' for personalities by color. It'd screw with roleplaying massively.
    If you would like i will attempt to find the sight again. This was some time ago i did this. if you would like me to Pm me and we can discuss it .

    Did a quick search and there is a consensuses of about 5 -9 sights (all i had time for at the moment )that water dragons are very stubborn lazy and lackadaisical they are a Peace oriented clan

    Note i did not go and find my old sights these are new sights that googel popped up after some digging

    as for the color of dragons
    its normally based on habitat From what i have learned almost all types like to blend in and ether avoid all humans or study them .
    Last edited by lightning claw; March 19th, 2008 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Did some quick reasearch and updated Post
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Yes, I know.

    It's just that most of those sites pull from one source - Dungeons and Dragons.

    I'm saying Istarian dragons shouldn't be bound to personalities that were made in an entirely seperate realm. =) (Plus, I'm not too entirely fond of how D&D dragons work)

    Dragon color in Istaria should be totally seperate from personality RPwise, for the most part. Everyone has their own take on dragons and dragon colors, and unless it becomes part of Istarian lore, it isn't something that should be bothered with mostly.

    Of course, having color/element based on habitat does make most sense. ^_- Most of the dragons I have though are more... civalized in manner and don't live in their natural habitat anymore.

    We already have Lunus and Helian dragons anyway. XD; that's enough to base personality on. (though I wonder... how many Lunus and Helian are there of each color? There may be a trend!)

  3. #43

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Yes my habitat has nothing at all to do with my color. my hunting style does but that is just me being smart and using it to my advantage. I currently live up on the side of Drakul Volcano by the river due to the size of the lair and the view is still nice. Otherwise I use to live in the side of a grassy hill facing the sun.

    My Mother was a red dragon and my Father was a blue dragon. Rest their souls. Me I am Black with dark blue highlights. So if we were going by lore from another world I should be red/blue if they would have mated at all. Which I am guessing by other world lore they would not.

    Edit: Oh and per Horizons lore we all came from the realm of flame so techincaly are all Fire Dragons. Which I would guess by your lore means we should all be reds?



  4. #44

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    “Pink? Pink? Well, what’s wrong with pink?
    Seems to me you’ve got a pink kink in your think.
    Does it matter what color? Well, that gets a nope.
    Be it pink, purple, or heliotrope."
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Actually the protagonist dragon in my book is black and red mix, he breaths multiple elements, and he is not "evil" (well not totally good either)

    Color of dragon is what everyone mentioned here before, based on the original Dungeons and Dragons conception that the color indicated alignment (good / evil - Lawful / Chaotic) and their breath weapon.

    Age determined what magical abilities they had access to (based on mage "per level learned" slots) and natural abilities. Things have changed between 1.0 and 3.5, dragons are a lot more nasty in 3.5 rules.

    Color, from my perspective, is interpreted by your individual imaginations and followings of what informational source you tend to read.

    To me... red dragons don't always breath fire, green dragons don't always spit acid. Color isn't like Anne Mcaffery's description of pigmentations and such either (but if you are a follower of her works, this is how you would understand it.) A dragon's color is what YOU make it based on your understanding (based on novels or RPG games) of how colors work and not everyone will be on the same page.

    Also, when creating dragons for fiction and fantasy, you wouldn't want your dragon to have a dark and shadowy name, only to make him/her white and bright in color. "Hi I am EbonStrike the dragon, check out my totally white scales!" just doesn't sound good
    Justa Mirage: Ranger 100 / Healer 92 / Carpentry 100 / Confectioner 100 / Fletching 92 / Weaver 62 / Gatherer 34
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  6. #46
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    To me... red dragons don't always breath fire, green dragons don't always spit acid. Color isn't like Anne Mcaffery's description of pigmentations and such either (but if you are a follower of her works, this is how you would understand it.) A dragon's color is what YOU make it based on your understanding (based on novels or RPG games) of how colors work and not everyone will be on the same page.
    Yes! Exactly. ^.^

    Such as my original dragon character, an ancient (she's very old) dragon named Emaraude - I should bring her into Istaria sometime. She's a green/jade dragon, and has long, curved tusks, and a fire breath weapon (though her teeth and claws are venomous, she doesn't spit acid like D&D dragons, yicky!)

    It's not something that will ever be universally agreed upon, because dragons are a very popular mythological creature that have many incarnations.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Dragon lore is ancient and varied. For instance, two of the Chinese Dragons dating back several thousand years are Water Dragons (Ti Lung the Earth Dragon and Shen Lung the Rain Dragon). Neither are blue and both are benevolent, and both predate Dungeons and Dragons.

    My Dragon is black with red tracings, and is both Night and Fire. He is gentle as a moon shadow when he and his are safe, but Fire and Death when enraged. He is Lunus because he is a Warrior, but he likes to help others regardless of leg count.

    In short, he fits no stereotype.

    Let Istarian Dragons be Istarian Dragons, and keep DnD Dragons elsewhere.

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    - Albert Einstein

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    speaking as a long time D&D player, i nevertheless totally agree with theo on this matter.
    istaria is istaria and greyhawk is greyhawk. and ever should it be thus.....
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    This might come as a shock but i don't know thing 1 about D&D
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    On the D&D issue: True it would be great to have more options to work with as a dragon, but not at the expense of our originality. The fact that we aren't like other games is the best lure of all. All other RPGs, online and offline, seem to have a lot in common, from the way they're built, to the way they function. All the ones I've played are basically the same game in different worlds. If you've played one, you can easily play any of them.

    Horizons is unique in that we are so different from the other games. Our world isn't like theirs, and I firmly believe that's the way it should stay. Why copy other games ideas, rather than come up with something new and unique.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Going back to the original topic of discussion, here are a couple proposals for discussion. Hopefully I've taken the ideas in this thread and the Helian and Lunus Equality Question thread and developed a balanced set of recommendations.

    1) Add in the Gold Burst ability, which is identical to Gold Rage, but uses Primal skill rather than Tooth and Claw Skill. This would do much to balance the fighting ability of casting dragons (currently weaker) vs. melee dragons (currently stronger). To make this balanced, Gold Burst and Gold Rage should be quested for separately but at equal levels, and the two abilities should share one timer. That means that Gold Burst would be an ability with recycle timer of 0:25, range 0 (up this slightly as its a spell, or not as we really want the equivalent of Gold Rage on primal skill and could compromise on additional range), 2 extra attacks, +50 attack skill (chance to hit), 400% damage adjustment (that's what shows on my Gold Rage V anyway), equal horde cost at each level, and target effect crippled. My recommendation for the animation would be a casting animation of improved prime bolt, but sped-up. It would almost appear as a quick slap throwing out three balls of flame at the target. This is probably the highest priority of the three proposals in this post.

    2) Helian and Lunus paths should be more philosophical and less tied to casting or melee combat styles. Many dragons have mentioned in various posts that they really are one faction, but took the other for its combat bonuses; or conversely, play a weaker dragon character because their faction bonuses don't match up with their combat style. My proposal for this is to remove the hard-coded bonuses based on the quest and give all adult dragons two emblems that have no titles attached, but do add the adult bonuses for combat. One would be +20 Spirit Resistance, +20 Ice Resistance, and +20 Primal. The other would be +40 Flame Resistance and +20 Tooth and Claw. Ancient combat bonuses would similarly be make emblems. This would allow a Helian dragon to choose the melee or casting bonuses based on their play style. The draw back is that they wouldn't be advertised as a dragon crafter or lairshaper when wearing these emblems. Of the three recommendations in this post, I consider this to be least vital.

    3) Create advanced dragon schools, specializations really, for dragon caster, dragon healer, and dragon warrior, in addition to the normal advancement in dragon adventurer.
    a) Dragon casters would earn new spells as they level: a faster casting version of Prime Bolt / Improved Prime Bolt, two more AOE spell lines that are not on a linked timer with any of the current AOE spells so that they can be closer to chain-casting AOE spells again, and a Power/Focus buff similar to the Strength/Dexterity buff granted by Promote Vitality. Other single target direct damage spells could round out any lists if more spells were needed in the round up. It is up to the developers whether they feel earning 9, 10, or even 11 points in the Primal skill per level, the way biped classes may do in their specialty, is warranted in order to make dragons more on par in the end game with multiclassed bipeds.
    b) Dragon healers would earn single target heals (direct healing, not heal over time) similar to clerics, a castable resurrection, several augmentations that stack with dragon adventurer ability buffs (perhaps a speed/velocity buff and stat buffs similar to the augmentation line), and perhaps a stun/mez/root to allow for some minor crowd control and an offhand way of increasing their solo-ability a tiny bit. If dragon casters and dragon warriors are getting per-level increases in abilities, it would seem that Evasion / Magic Evasion would be the skills increased for dragon healers, since dragon breath is already at 10 per level.
    c) Dragon warriors would receive several AOE melee attacks, several debuff specialty attacks (hamstring for instance), and possibly one or two more single target damage attacks to round out the list. These abilities should be focused on the “Bite, then think” light-tank model of heavy damage/moderate armor vs. the “agro management” heavy-tank model of moderate damage/heavy armor. Again, it is up to developers whether they feel an increase in Tooth and Claw per-level earnings is warranted.

    Now for the caveats:

    Dragon adventurer ability quests stop at level 70 with the level VII abilities. So I'd suggest making these specializations begin at level 80 or level 70 (if you'd like 3 x 30 more levels worth of additional leveling rather than 3 x 20 levels of additional leveling). These would function like the advanced schools (Knight of Creation, Spearmen, etc.) but would be joinable at this higher level, rather than level 20.

    I would also suggest limiting these, either by direct requirement or by placement of trainers in areas that must be flown to, so that only adult and ancient dragons can join one of the specialized schools. After all, if a hatchling can't choose a political faction, the specialized trainers would question their dedication.

    Similar to Lairshaper and Dragon Crafter, a character that has started to level in one of the specializations should be allowed to change to the other specializations as well by talking to the trainer again. However, I would highly recommend that none of the abilities in the specializations be masterable, so you only get them IF you are active in that specialization at that time. Dragons that are actively dragon adventurers would not get any of these specialized abilities.

    As a side note on the topic of abilities, the dragon adventurer abilities that have been earned should be available while the dragon has specialized. That would seem to me to be a variation on masterable, so that the skill only appears in the dragon adventurer advancement path, but can be used by the specializations. I don't think you want to put the dragon adventurer abilities in the specialization advancement paths, or there is very little reason to need to advance in that path, and one of the secondary goals of this proposal is to give high-level dragons more game to play.

    It is up to the devs whether extensions of the current dragon adventurer ability quests continued with versions for VIII, IX, and X at levels 80, 90, and 100, respectively. If they do continue, I would think that it would be fair to give dragon adventurers the quests for dragons gift and hardened scales and spiked scales (available to dragon adventurers and specialist dragons), dragon casters the quests for gold burst (see above) and primal mastery (just for dragon casters), dragon healers the quests for primal instant heal and drain strike (just for dragon healers), and dragon warriors the quests for gold rage and tooth and claw mastery (just for dragon warriors). This would further encourage dragons to spend the time to level in each of the four alternatives. Note that inclusion of the bonuses from primal mastery and tooth and claw mastery I think would mitigate much of the need for adding in per-level increases in skills.

    So, in summary, the highest priority proposal is the first, whose aim is to help bring dragon casting on par with dragon melee. I have been lead to believe that most, if not all, coding for this has been done already, and would just need to be checked internally, and tested on Blight.

    The second highest priority is the third proposal, which would add some longevity for dragon players by giving them additional levels to play thorugh, some diversity between dragons by giving them specializations, and a way to make the most experienced dragons a bit closer in ability to the most experienced multiclassed bipeds.

    The lowest priority is the second proposal which consists of divorcing the spellcasting vs. melee choice from character politics.
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Mirage View Post
    Actually the protagonist dragon in my book is black and red mix, he breaths multiple elements, and he is not "evil" (well not totally good either)

    Color of dragon is what everyone mentioned here before, based on the original Dungeons and Dragons conception that the color indicated alignment (good / evil - Lawful / Chaotic) and their breath weapon.

    Age determined what magical abilities they had access to (based on mage "per level learned" slots) and natural abilities. Things have changed between 1.0 and 3.5, dragons are a lot more nasty in 3.5 rules.

    Color, from my perspective, is interpreted by your individual imaginations and followings of what informational source you tend to read.

    To me... red dragons don't always breath fire, green dragons don't always spit acid. Color isn't like Anne Mcaffery's description of pigmentations and such either (but if you are a follower of her works, this is how you would understand it.) A dragon's color is what YOU make it based on your understanding (based on novels or RPG games) of how colors work and not everyone will be on the same page.

    Also, when creating dragons for fiction and fantasy, you wouldn't want your dragon to have a dark and shadowy name, only to make him/her white and bright in color. "Hi I am EbonStrike the dragon, check out my totally white scales!" just doesn't sound good

    Except the greens of AD&D spit a cloud of chlorine gas.
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Wow, Oakleif, I think you just about hit the nail on the head. I think that sounds like a very good way to get things to work out.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    I still kinda like the idea of classes all Dragon should be able to multi class and be more in tune with the elements. This is not D&D Related i am completely clueless when it come to D&D, other than the movie was cool back on 2000 .

    i am Lunus there are rare ocashions i would allow a friend a free ride and i would always let the hachies have a ride
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  15. #55
    Member peladon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by lightning claw View Post
    I still kinda like the idea of classes all Dragon should be able to multi class and be more in tune with the elements. This is not D&D Related i am completely clueless when it come to D&D, other than the movie was cool back on 2000 .

    i am Lunus there are rare ocashions i would allow a friend a free ride and i would always let the hachies have a ride
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    DEFINITELY! Dragons really lose out on the Adventuring side of things compared to bipeds. personally i think there should be three adventuring schools; the generic school that we already have, a school dealing specifically with combat skills as opposed to physical attributes suc as Strength (evasion, focus, dext etc...) and a third school that is faction specific and allows you to furter build on skills developed in the aforementioned second school. It really sucks that multiclassed bipeds can rip up a dragon on the isles of battle when in reality a hit from a twenty foot tall monstrosity would likely put the little two leggers down for good- regardless of armour >.=.<

  17. #57

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amecha View Post
    Horizons is unique in that we are so different from the other games. Our world isn't like theirs, and I firmly believe that's the way it should stay. Why copy other games ideas, rather than come up with something new and unique.
    Especially when Horizons has a superior concept than the games it might copy anyway :-)

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Quite superior, which is why we must help it succeed!

    I also very much like the suggestions Oakleif has made. Reading them through, they're some of the best I've read.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    that`s it, oakleif- can`t think of anything better

  20. #60

    Default Re: Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

    Some interesting Ideas Oaklief, however first I believe Vitrium should first add in the remaining quests needed for skill boosts such as breath accuracy, Dragons Gift V (lvl 90 quest), etc. Then make an assesment. The Spiked Scales quest obviously cannot continue (the previous version of questing) because that became a part of ARoP, unless it picks up after ARoP at lvl 90 for spiked scales IX. Once these are in place (easy for devs to do comapred to rest of the suggestions), we can re-examine the playability of meele'ers and casters and go from there....

    1) Gold Burst does need to be added so that a Dragon choosing a spellcaster combat style has an alternative to gold rage. Gold Rage recycle varies from I believe 60 seconds for gold rage 1, to 15 seconds for gold rage 7. Gold burst can follow a similiar pattern if desired. On Blight shard, Gold Burst is almost instant recycle.

    2) Why make these small RoP boosts into an emblem? They are small enough they do not make a huge end-game difference. The current real end game problem is the lack of gold burst, forcing all dragons who want to stand up decently against Reklar or Daknor, etc, to be Lunus to get the Fangs of Fury crystal. the +150 tooth&claw skill goes a long way during those fights in helping your attacks land. Now the primal version of the crystal would have a use if Gold Burst was in.

    2a) My own suggestion along these same lines of thought was to remove the ARoP weapon crystals, and make both sets of bonuses a passive ability to ALL ancients, regardless of faction. Combat style should never have been tied to political faction.

    2b.1) An additional thought I have had regarding adulthood quest bonus and ancient quest bonuses was for skill increases. hatchy (and currently adult and ancient as well) get 8 tooth&claw skill per level, 8 primal skill per level, 8 breathskill/level. Hatchlings can begin out this way, but upon completing RoP, dragons should get 10 skill/level of the fighting skills (retroactive to all previous levels obtained). Upon completing ARoP the skills should be boosted to 12 skill/level. This would translate to an additional 400 t&c for a level 100 Ancient. (Boost breathskill now!) [Keep in mind that at the beginning of my suggestion I said missing quests need added FIRST, then we re-asess if any of the rest of this is necessary]

    2b.2) An Alternative idea to this would be to allow dragons to use training points to customize their combat abilities as they see fit. Upon completing RoP a dragon gets an additional 600 training points to spend. Upon completing ARoP, another 600 training points are granted. This option is the more customizeable method, and grants the least actual gains. iirc 600 points would only = 200 t&c skill for example (Might only be 150 can't recall and i'm at work). Would help but really wouldn't be earth shattering.... These numbers could be adjusted so that say 150 or 200 skill would be the max allowed: The training window could peak T&C at 900 or 1000 points, therefore both sets of bonus TP's couldnt all feed into T&C necessarily. Dev's could figure that all out tho. [Keep in mind that at the beginning of my suggestion I said missing quests need added FIRST, then we re-asess if any of the rest of this is necessary]

    3) Advanced schools, or specializations would be great. However I think they should come after ARoP, and after the missing skill quests are added. (Breath skill is sorely lacking in Ancients.. breath of flame burst misses more than it hits...).(Boost breathskill now!)

    These quests could be for Beath of Lightning II, III, Ice Breath II and III, Dragon Stomp (An earthquake style area dmg/chance to stun), or similiar. Or they could break the fighting skills into totally seperate schools. That I think would take more work than the current Dev team could handle.

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