Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

[Sephix Runus]

I would say no.. Only because it would out power the rest of the classes that other races posses in considering with their aids, that if Dragons were to have different Schools in adventuring. There wouldn't be much of use of Bipeds. I would perfer to have them in aid in allowing them to keep their classes as they are and our Dragon abilities to ourselves rather then mergeing them together. BUT... Thats just me

[Shur]

I would say no.. Only because it would out power the rest of the classes that other races posses in considering with their aids, that if Dragons were to have different Schools in adventuring. There wouldn't be much of use of Bipeds. I would perfer to have them in aid in allowing them to keep their classes as they are and our Dragon abilities to ourselves rather then mergeing them together. BUT... Thats just me

so what you are saying is that dragons shouldn't be allowed their own set of specialized classes (different from the biped ones) specifically to keep over-classed bipeds better than dragons, because if dragons could keep up with bipeds people would stop playing bipeds?

[Silverblaze]

More or less, I agree with that sentiment...dragons need to be made on par other ways.

My vote is for further quests and abilites, more spells etc.

I for the most part agree with Guaran, but I see little value in multiple schools at all.

[Veruliyam]

Yes, another clawful of spells would be nice... for starters...

[Shur]

More or less, I agree with that sentiment...dragons need to be made on par other ways.

My vote is for further quests and abilites, more spells etc.

I for the most part agree with Guaran, but I see little value in multiple schools at all.

hmm, i dunno, maybe as a means of introducing new abilities and spells and etc.?

say, specialized combat schools available upon reaching adult? focusing on, say, breath attacks? or offensive (or defensive) spells? then at ancient, further specialization opens up with level 100 in the adult school? say, adult school is breath (allowing access to multiple breath types), and at level 100 breath and ancient status, one has the option of focusing on specific breath elements (say, we decide we really like playing with fire, so we would level ancient fire breath school and have a line of specialized fire attacks and defenses)?

[Silverblaze]

Add a few new breath quests, problem solved. Dont need to waste levels and rating on breath abilites.

if dragons are just as good as bipeds at everything...and add in gold rage and flight...bipeds become obsolete. Thats why we shouldnt have schools.

If we get schools, should be few and far between...and not till ancienthood.

I still am wholeheartedly opposed to schools being added to dragons.

Even lairshaping I think should have been retroactively added to Dragon craft...but thats already done and over with.

[Vlisson]

i still hope that dragons wont be able to muliclass at all

-give unique abilities via quests (you have to choose which one you take, and are not able to gain all abilities)

or
-make a quest/decision to ascend to another dragon kind (shape a statue of your new form ^^)

[Ahael]

if dragons are just as good as bipeds at everything...and add in gold rage and flight...bipeds become obsolete. Thats why we shouldnt have schools.

Obsolete? Biped have TONS of options available to them - dozens of schools. Even if dragons got some more schools & options to both craft and fight, bipeds would never become obsolete - they are THAT much ahead. Besides, they can be further improved too! Like, revamping the 'underdeveloped' existing schools...

Even lairshaping I think should have been retroactively added to Dragon craft...but thats already done and over with.

Huh? I have to disagree here. Lairs are quite unique thing, so I think it's logical we got another craft school to play with them.

All I see here is a thinly veiled attempt to curtail dragons so the bipeds can stay forever ahead... Developing a biped char really never ends, unlike dragons... I don't want that much more 'power' but new, fun options and possibilities to improve my dragon.

But then again, even the dragon adventurer school is somewhat unfinished. That's where VI should focus with dragons IMHO.

[rizo/nawkia]

i agree with silverblaze and vlisson- i dont think that dragons should have more adv schools

-just about any combo with gold rage and a dragon is above a biped already
-dragons can fly
-dragons have scales that add a default 25 armor(t5) and just about any stat they want
-they hit enough and hard enough already
-speallcasters i can see as needing some better spells(up damage and i think theyll be alright personally)

-peds take longer to get to a dragons caliber of 100(most cases)
-skills are generally low for most classes
-takes longer to level all those classes
-takes longer to kill a mob.......

anything else im missing? im sure i am:P but thats just it really dragons id say are actually almost finished
- they have popularity,
-kill quick
-flight
-factions
-a lota armor(with or without the armor scales, if no armor scales specifically they still have more armor than a fully teched padded armor)


-is making the whole game dragons a solution>.> would make thing very interesting, maybe boring to some:P j/k

[Guaran]

Looks like back n forth ePeen envy going on....

However they do it, it seems clear to me that there are loose ends in the Dragon school along with design flaws. I'm not saying there are no loose ends in some of the biped schools, because there is. But it's true that biped's can build their character up in many many ways, and a simple 2 schooled biped can be more effective than a Dragon. Dragon is basically a 2 class in one type school, like say reaver (2 hand slash + spirit), but gets low skills all around with no way to raise them. Bipeds can simply take spiritist, and zerker (in place of the reaver school) and max out a strong magic and melee skillset. I love this about biped's, I play mine quite often.

Dragons are also fun to play, but these seem like design errors to me:

Strength - dragons top out at what 900 base str. rediculous. Bipeds can hit 2100 (using buffs that get a dragon to say 1650 including training points). The side effects of this are str based dmg crystals are pitiful when used by a dragon (DCoM) compared to a biped using them.

Power - see Strength

Health - this one is just rediculous. 2700 some odd health in big giant Ancient Dragon. 10,000 + would be more realistic. double base health for adults, quadruple for ancients seems about right.

Dexterity - maxes out at what 780 base or so. probably the only semi realistic stat we have.

Focus maxes out same as dex 700 to 800 somewhere. For masters of the original form of Magic, this one should be quiet a bit higher, and likely double in an Ancient at a minimum.

Fighting Skills (Tooth&Claw, Primal, Dragon Breath) Max out at 800 (DB 1000). pretty rediculous when compared to specialized schools like berzerker which get 11 2hs per level. The side effect is lots of misses against higher level mobs, even with maxing out the TP's into t&c and having 10 scales t&c teched for example.

To make dragons' attacks powerful, they(dev's) modified the attacks themselves, when the first thing they should have done was doubled the strength gained per level (a little gnome can easily achieve 1.5x a dragons strength stat, how realistic is that), boosted the T&C and primal and DragonBreath per level, and then adjusted the attacks. (looks like a 1 point boost for primal & t&c coming soon per blight patch notes!). Dragon Breath was supposed to get a boost from hoard (at one time or other I recall this) but it doesn't (unless the 1000 base I have is 800 + a boost from hoard).

Seems like dev's are being cautious and taking it slow with the upcoming single point increase. I'm fine with that so long as they are listening and observing, and making corrections and improvements where needed.

[Silverblaze]

Heres my idea and fixes.

Have Dragon Craft and Dragon Lairshaping add to base str and dex and power and focus...2 per school. Much like fitter an weaver work for bipeds.

Add to our max stats.

Make dragons craft.

I do not agree with Guaran's theory on health. More health for dragons, yeah a bit. Not that much imo however.

I'm ok with focus nad dex being lower, even evasion if health, armor, str, and power raise.

I'd like dragons gift to add health and armor, not evasion and magic evasion. those two stats are largely ineffective to a dragon. Many argue otherwise...Dragons simply don't dodge. If they do, it takes way to much work to make them do it. Much ofthe time its L-U-C-K. Armor and health...good all around.

Again, make all the faction changes druin RoP and ARoP universal. Let the Factions be for Order. It shouldnt effect game mechanics much IMHO.

[Zexoin]

Again, make all the faction changes druin RoP and ARoP universal. Let the Factions be for Order. It shouldnt effect game mechanics much IMHO.

I'm sorry, but no. If you want to be a melee dragon, you choose Lunus. If you want to be a Spelcaster dragon, you choose Helian. There is absolutely no problem with that, at least on Chaos. Could be a little more tricky on Order, where the faction choice is also important RP-wise.

[Silverblaze]

I'm sorry no. You live too much in the stereotype. I know melee helians who pwn lunus ancients.

Best no to let philosophy dictate my combat or ability, I'll let you have your opinion, it's valid... but I wont change mine, sorry.

My ideas arent just mine, Guaran has similar opinions.

[Vlisson]

I'm sorry, but no. If you want to be a melee dragon, you choose Lunus. If you want to be a Spelcaster dragon, you choose Helian. There is absolutely no problem with that, at least on Chaos. Could be a little more tricky on Order, where the faction choice is also important RP-wise.

hmm have i missed something?

whats the game mechanics difference between lunus and helian?

only some skill and breath attack? and some not relevant things?

if the difference would be visible then i would call lunus and helian "schools" ^^

[Deth]

Lunus get a few T&C points and Helians get a few Primal points. Something the devs now thing is very bad and they wished they had never did. They do not wish classes linked to factions and instead wished the those bonuses had not been linked to the factions.

[awdz]

It seems like it would be neat for dragons to have prestige classes of either spellcasting or melee, independent of the lunus/helian view of bipeds. The basic dragon is a generalist school, no maximum points in anything; prestige classes after ascension (maybe minimum level 60?) would allow building to the maximum points and give dragons more to work on.

Would this really make bipeds obsolete? I don't know, I've not gotten heavily into playing my dragon. It seems players are either dragon minded or not, to me.

[pevil2000]

I have to agree with Awdz on this one. To me a dragon is a dragon and I don't even really think of them as spellcasters when I think of a 'traditional' dragon. They're basically big brutes that are darn hard to hurt and hit everything hard with their claws or burn stuff. But obviously in HZ we have our primal spells, and compared to multi-class 'peds we're a bit weak (but obviously the sheer uniqueness of playing a dragon overrides that for the majority of us), so it would be nice to be able to choose to become extra-powerful in our chosen way of fighting, melee or primal. There would still be incentive to play a ped (heals, archers, monks etc plus you can do all of those on a ped instead of just one as on a dragon) but dragons would be a little more powerful than they are right now.

[Shur]

what i don't get is the insistence by certain people in this topic that if dragons could multiclass, everyone would abandon their peds in favour of a dragon. but that logic doesn't work on more than one level:

first: if people abandoned one race because another could multiclass, no-one would play dragons

second: people are not going to just throw away a character they have worked so hard on only to have to start all over on a different character

third: the main appeal of dragons in this game is that they are dragons. most of the people who play dragons do so because they have an affinity for them. most of the people who play only peds do so because they do not care to play a dragon. making dragons multiclassable might change some of the former, but not the latter.

[pevil2000]

On my part it's not so much that I think people would abandon their characters, or new players would only ever choose dragons, but more that I think dragons shouldn't be quite as plentiful as they are. Not complaining; I love seeing dragons around it's just that in general, dragons are few and far between and fairly solitary creatures, so I guess my general view on them is that they shouldn't be something everyone has. That probably doesn't make a lot of sense but shush

[Veruliyam]

And, again,

Don't want to see more dragons?!?!?

*peers at the preceding signature...