Feedback regarding Crystalshaping

[Xarog]

On the other hand :

If the system were to be changed like this, it's still possible to get points in secondary skills without ever touching whatever that skill is supposed to represent. I.E. As a fitter, I simply buy metal bars instead of going through the slog of collecting them myself - but as I level I get experience in making bars and mining, which is something I never did. When I reach lvl 100 I go back to mithril or platinum and suddenly half an hour later I'm a lvl 60 miner.

What I want to know is : Is this also something that will be addressed? Is Tulga really interested in fixing this exploit too? Or is it just a case of trying to slow down the lvling process in general, without really caring about how the crafting system itself works?

I still think that a pure skill based system is not only easier to implement, but also more sensible given the path Tulga wants to persue. It solves the potential problem I've mentioned above, totally destroys any chance of using one crafting skill as a means to gain an insane skill in another, and it still gives a player a reward for everything in the game that he makes. (TG might possibly need to start giving experience for actually getting unproccessed ore from nodes though, I guess that would be the one tricky thing about this business.)

[Cerjar]

On the other hand :
When I reach lvl 100 I go back to mithril or platinum and suddenly half an hour later I'm a lvl 60 miner.

With the question, how can a jeweler get a Expert or Master Crafter in making Jewelry, when he never made jewelry, i can also ask, when i make tons of metal bars as jeweler, why dont i learn the basics of the Miner school automaticly? So, I would say the benifit of getting the first Miner-Level very fast, after doing Jeweler isnt a exploit.

The bigger problems are the overlapping skills of some schools, that sometimes doesnt make any sense. A Fitter getting Metalworking, and a Carpenter getting Woodworking makes some kind of sense, but is the source of the problem in the first place. But why does a Tinkerer get Earthencraft? Why does a Scholar get Clothworking?

[Seranthor]

Cerjar, one of the things being planned for the crafting revamp is the examination of the crossover skills. Tinkerers get earthencraft because they are supposedly the 'jacks of all trades'.... Scholars get Clothworking because its a generalist school, look at blacksmith, same theory.

[Xarog]

With the question, how can a jeweler get a Expert or Master Crafter in making Jewelry, when he never made jewelry, i can also ask, when i make tons of metal bars as jeweler, why dont i learn the basics of the Miner school automaticly? So, I would say the benifit of getting the first Miner-Level very fast, after doing Jeweler isnt a exploit.

Tulga seems to think that lvling jeweler by making tons of mithril bars IS an exploit - hence why they're looking at revamping the craft schools. In future, the only thing that will lvl a jeweler school is making jewelry.

Buying bars you haven't mined in order to gain lvls in jeweler, and then going back and getting alot of levels in miner without ever having touched a mining pick before is, by this line of thought, an exploit.

The water becomes incredibly murky when you consider schools like blacksmith. They make weapons AND tools, in metal, stone and wood. At least fitters you can sort of say that metalworking isn't fitting (I think that fitting IS just metalworking on a larger scale; same as clothworking and tailoring is fundamentally the same discipline - you can't tell me that an experienced tailor would have trouble picking up the finer points of clothworking for buildings in a short time.)

But with blacksmith, making all these various things is the main point of the school. How can you not give experience for making metal tools? How can you not give experience for making wooden weapons? I can easily spend my time making metal tools until level 100, and then switch to fletcher or weaponmaster and powerlvl, having never actually made a weapon or anything vaguely resembling wood.

I also think that every single skill should be the primary skill for at least one school. It's absolutely ridiculous that I have to get better at crystalshaping by building a lair - so far my dragon hasn't touched the stuff with a barge pole, because finding places with gems, crystals, a gemworking hut and a crystal shaper all near each other proved impossible at tierI - it's much easier to make maelstones. I didn't touch any crystals, yet my crystalshaping skill went up.

Which again makes me ask : Does Tulga really see a problem with the way craft schools are structured, or are they simply trying to slow down powerlvlers? Given that they're adamant to persue these changes, I sincerely hope it's the former.

[Deth]

I also think that every single skill should be the primary skill for at least one school. It's absolutely ridiculous that I have to get better at crystalshaping by building a lair - so far my dragon hasn't touched the stuff with a barge pole, because finding places with gems, crystals, a gemworking hut and a crystal shaper all near each other proved impossible at tierI - it's much easier to make maelstones. I didn't touch any crystals, yet my crystalshaping skill went up.

For Teir 1 at least on Order, thier is around Pars. You have the northern Gem mine, then a short drag to the south west is a Player Lair with a Crystalshaper and just above it is a Community Crystlshaper, both of which are right below the crystals that are in the blighted area. Very easy and quick to do. With the community storage with the community crystal shaper it is easy to get your cut gems up into the community lair.

[Lycaunoss]

I also think that every single skill should be the primary skill for at least one school. It's absolutely ridiculous that I have to get better at crystalshaping by building a lair - so far my dragon hasn't touched the stuff with a barge pole, because finding places with gems, crystals, a gemworking hut and a crystal shaper all near each other proved impossible at tierI - it's much easier to make maelstones. I didn't touch any crystals, yet my crystalshaping skill went up.

Which again makes me ask : Does Tulga really see a problem with the way craft schools are structured, or are they simply trying to slow down powerlvlers? Given that they're adamant to persue these changes, I sincerely hope it's the former.

I agree with your first statement. Remember though that Lairshaper is the first class to receive the primary skill treatment. That doesn't mean that things are going to be perfect right from the start. It would be nice for crystalshaping to have a purpose other than for making lairs but it doesn't right now. It might never have a purpose beyond that. Nope you didn't touch crystals and your crystal shaping went up. Look at it the other way. What if you got xp for making focused crystals. Do you honestly believe that your lairshaping should increase? I think that's what the devs are trying to avoid and I think they did a good job at it.

I think that they are trying to make the craft schools make more sense. Making sense seems to also slow down power levelers. I'm not certain that's a win/win situation but it's not really worse than what we have now and it seems to make some sense.

[Xarog]

Remember though that Lairshaper is the first class to receive the primary skill treatment. That doesn't mean that things are going to be perfect right from the start.

Fair enough.

Nope you didn't touch crystals and your crystal shaping went up. Look at it the other way. What if you got xp for making focused crystals. Do you honestly believe that your lairshaping should increase?

So it's OK for lairhsaping to boost crystalshaping without actually making any crystals, but it's not ok for crystalshaping to boost lairshaping?

Someone PLEASE explain this to me? Am I the only one who thinks that's TOTALLY arbitrary?

think that's what the devs are trying to avoid and I think they did a good job at it.

Slowing down the leveling speed, yes; making it function coherently, no.

[AA0]

It isn't slowing down the levelling speed, you just don't understand how it works. The exp you would get normally from processing those resources all gets added into the final lairshaping experience. Thats why you get such a crazy amount when you place your items to build the lair.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to work with crystals to do lairshaping? the experience is still computed in there, but you can not learn lairshaping soloely by grinding on crystals, or by stoneworking or anything else, you have to lairshape. It makes sense you gain knowledge of how to work with crystals when building a lair.

[Xarog]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to work with crystals to do lairshaping? the experience is still computed in there, but you can not learn lairshaping soloely by grinding on crystals, or by stoneworking or anything else, you have to lairshape. It makes sense you gain knowledge of how to work with crystals when building a lair.

You do not need to work with crystals to lvl lairshaping. You could get to lvl 100 lairshaping (aside from the first quests to get the forms) without ever touching a crystal.

You need crystals to make a lair, but that's not the same thing.

It isn't slowing down the levelling speed, you just don't understand how it works. The exp you would get normally from processing those resources all gets added into the final lairshaping experience. Thats why you get such a crazy amount when you place your items to build the lair.

I'll reserve judgement on that. if the resources weren't so damned far away from each other, then I'd probably concede the point.

At the same time, this non-primary skill business is definately aimed at stopping people from powerlvling.

[Lycaunoss]

Fair enough.


So it's OK for lairhsaping to boost crystalshaping without actually making any crystals, but it's not ok for crystalshaping to boost lairshaping?

Someone PLEASE explain this to me? Am I the only one who thinks that's TOTALLY arbitrary?


Slowing down the leveling speed, yes; making it function coherently, no.

Yes it's ok for lairshaping to boost crystalshaping. Why? Because crystalshaping is an intermediate process. Just like smelting, stoneworking, etc. The question I'd have is wether we get xp in the dragon crafter class for making focused crystals. If we do then it's following a pattern at least. If we don't than maybe we should.

FWIW it doesn't slow down levelling speed at all. I'm able to level lairshaper faster than I believe I should be able to. Part of that is being ahead of the curve thanks to having 100 crafter levels and part of that is that I have a set of teir V teched scales. It's not slow at all though.

[Seranthor]

So it's OK for lairhsaping to boost crystalshaping without actually making any crystals, but it's not ok for crystalshaping to boost lairshaping?

Someone PLEASE explain this to me? Am I the only one who thinks that's TOTALLY arbitrary?

Xarog, yes, and how many times does it need to be explained. You are NOT listening or your not grasping whats been told to you.

The name of the school is LAIRSHAPER and thusly you get your experience from LAIRSHAPING. the name of the school is NOT crystalshaping.

Next, grasp the concept that what currently exists with LAIRSHAPER is going to happen to ALL the crafting schools. Fitters will get their experience from making fitting materials and for their applications, no more will they get exp for smelting or for metalworking. Fletchers will get their experience from making wooden weapons, not from lumbering or making wood tools.

Crystalshaping is a skill subset of Lairshaping and thusly gets no experience, you can howl, cry, gnash your teeth, stomp your feet or generally just be pissed off about it but thats the way it is.

[Xarog]

Yes it's ok for lairshaping to boost crystalshaping. Why? Because crystalshaping is an intermediate process. Just like smelting, stoneworking, etc. The question I'd have is wether we get xp in the dragon crafter class for making focused crystals. If we do then it's following a pattern at least. If we don't than maybe we should.

We do not get experience for making focused crystals as DCRA. And I vehemently disagree with the idea that lairshaping should increase crystalshaping skill if crystalshaping does not add experience to lairshaping. If Tulga doesn't want us to gain competence in one the one by doing the other, then they shouldn't say that THE ONLY WAY to gain competence in the second is to do the first.

FWIW it doesn't slow down levelling speed at all. I'm able to level lairshaper faster than I believe I should be able to. Part of that is being ahead of the curve thanks to having 100 crafter levels and part of that is that I have a set of teir V teched scales. It's not slow at all though.

I don't care about the actual speed, I care about the crafting system being sensible.

Xarog, yes, and how many times does it need to be explained. You are NOT listening or your not grasping whats been told to you.

Or maybe I just disagree with you.

The name of the school is LAIRSHAPER and thusly you get your experience from LAIRSHAPING. the name of the school is NOT crystalshaping.

Then why is crystalshaping there? Or would it be OK for us to have lairshaping in the crystalshaping school and then lvl lairshaping only by making crystals?

Next, grasp the concept that what currently exists with LAIRSHAPER is going to happen to ALL the crafting schools.

Irrelevant, it's still poorly thought out, no matter how many schools you apply it to.

Fitters will get their experience from making fitting materials and for their applications, no more will they get exp for smelting or for metalworking. Fletchers will get their experience from making wooden weapons, not from lumbering or making wood tools.

Fitters will still get smelting experience. lvl 100 fitter switches to miner and HELLO lvl 60 30 minutes later. Blacksmith gets to lvl 100 making metal weapons, now he's a expert fletcher too?

Crystalshaping is a skill subset of Lairshaping and thusly gets no experience, you can howl, cry, gnash your teeth, stomp your feet or generally just be pissed off about it but thats the way it is.

And it's still illogical, and you can try and you can do all the things you think I can do, but that will still be the truth.

[Vandellia]

I have avoided this post like the plague howver i will chime in at this point I believe that, like lairshaping My personal favorite school (read confectioner)
and yes i am a biped will under go the reformation of how xp is gained i will recieve no xp for the up to 20 substeps to create a food item but will recieve massive amounts of xp for the final step ie creation of food. , what tulga is trying to do is bring back common sense back into leveling a 100 confectioner that has never made food is silly by the same extension a dragon lairshaper that did nothing but crystals is not really a lairshaper

[LaughingOtter]

Fitters will still get smelting experience. lvl 100 fitter switches to miner and HELLO lvl 60 30 minutes later. Blacksmith gets to lvl 100 making metal weapons, now he's a expert fletcher too?

You are utterly incorrect. Perhaps you think it is not logical because you do not understand how the core crafting skill system is going to work.

Fitters will not get XP for smelting. They will get XP only for making and applying construction units. Blacksmiths will not get XP for anything but making metal and (possibly) wooden tools. Scholars will get XP for making stone tools. Confectioners will get XP for cooking, and tinkerers will get XP for tinkering. Crystalshaping is not a primary skill for lairshapers, so it will never be worth XP. Lairshapers get XP by building lairs, not by processing resources. Confectioners and tinkerers and alchemists will still get the Earthencraft skill, but none of them will get XP for making glass vials or soupbowls because Earthencraft is not a primary skill for any of them.

As you yourself have pointed out, this does NOTHING to slow levelling. Quite the opposite, in fact. Accusing the dev team of doing this to nerf crafters in some way is laughable. It's being done to reduce the ability of players to bootstrap craft levelling via crossover skills by requiring you to actually CRAFT.

[Xarog]

And a dragon that got to lvl 100 lairshaper making nothing but imbued bars isn't a crystalshaper, either. The jeweler who got to lvl 100 buying his cut gems and processed bars is no miner.

Edit :

Fitters will not get XP for smelting. They will get XP only for making and applying construction units. Blacksmiths will not get XP for anything but making metal and (possibly) wooden tools. Scholars will get XP for making stone tools. Confectioners will get XP for cooking, and tinkerers will get XP for tinkering. Crystalshaping is not a primary skill for lairshapers, so it will never be worth XP.

Yes Fitters will get smelting skill, which they can use to powerlvl miner. Blacksmiths will get skill in making weapons, which they can use to powerlvl weaponsmith. Etc.

As you yourself have pointed out, this does NOTHING to slow levelling. Quite the opposite, in fact. Accusing the dev team of doing this to nerf crafters in some way is laughable. It's being done to reduce the ability of players to bootstrap craft levelling via crossover skills by requiring you to actually CRAFT.

But it doesn't do that, does it? All it does is introduce even more inconsistencies into the system.

[LaughingOtter]

And a dragon that got to lvl 100 lairshaper making nothing but imbued bars isn't a crystalshaper, either. The jeweler who got to lvl 100 buying his cut gems and processed bars is no miner.

Well, that's true, because there is no class called 'crystalshaper', and someone buying processed gems and bars to level jeweler is a jeweler, not a miner. They weren't trying to level miner, so I can't see why you would say 'they are no miner' like that was some kind of accusation. Of course they're not a miner - they're a jeweler! That's what they were levelling.

Your statement is 100% accurate, but makes no sense.

[Lycaunoss]

Fitters will still get smelting experience. lvl 100 fitter switches to miner and HELLO lvl 60 30 minutes later. Blacksmith gets to lvl 100 making metal weapons, now he's a expert fletcher too?


And it's still illogical, and you can try and you can do all the things you think I can do, but that will still be the truth.

That's the part you don't seem to be getting. Fitters would not get smelting experience. They would get xp for making finished products (construction sheets?) and applying them to a plot structure.

It's no more illogical than gathering together 1000 bars and grinding them to get xp. I stand by my it's not going to be perfect statement from a couple of posts ago. It does make more sense.

[Xarog]

Well, that's true, because there is no class called 'crystalshaper', and someone buying processed gems and bars to level jeweler is a jeweler, not a miner. They weren't trying to level miner, so I can't see why you would say 'they are no miner' like that was some kind of accusation. Of course they're not a miner - they're a jeweler! That's what they were levelling.

Your statement is 100% accurate, but makes no sense.

Yet they would get smelting and gemworking skill. Otherwise every jeweler would have to become a miner for a while before they can work jewelry, correct? At that point though, the schools are simply skills in all but name. At that point, we have a skill system, and what I'm complaining about ceases to exist.

That's the part you don't seem to be getting. Fitters would not get smelting experience. They would get xp for making finished products (construction sheets?) and applying them to a plot structure.

But they'd still get the ability to make mithril bars - smelting would be deemed a non-primary skill, something which they gain the ability to do, without actually doing any work in the discipline. They can then later use that skill to go and work in a craft school where that skill IS a primary skill, and thus bootstrap the second school.

To all : the fact that crystalshaping is part of lairshaping as a secondary skill CLEARLY suggests that Tulga has no intention of removing the supporting skills from the various classes. Jewelers will still get mining skill, fitters will get smelting skill, etc.

[LaughingOtter]

Yes Fitters will get smelting skill, which they can use to powerlvl miner. Blacksmiths will get skill in making weapons, which they can use to powerlvl weaponsmith. Etc.

Actually, we don't know if blacksmiths will continue to get weaponcraft or fletching skills My bet is that they lose them and the reqs for entering fletcher/weaponsmith change to something like smelting and lumbering. Sure, you can smelt mithril, but to get weaponsmith XP, you have to make bronze axes.

Yes, a 100 fitter could level miner really fast smelting mithril. Newsflash, that can be done now. Core skills won't eliminate bootstrapping; just cut it down somewhat.

[Xarog]

Actually, we don't know if blacksmiths will continue to get weaponcraft or fletching skills My bet is that they lose them and the reqs for entering fletcher/weaponsmith change to something like smelting and lumbering. Sure, you can smelt mithril, but to get weaponsmith XP, you have to make bronze axes.

Fair enough.

Yes, a 100 fitter could level miner really fast smelting mithril. Newsflash, that can be done now. Core skills won't eliminate bootstrapping; just cut it down somewhat.

But then the solution isn't complete and introduces a whole new set of problems to the system. How can that be a good thing? My core complaint at this point is that making crystals do not make me better at making crystals. As I said a few posts ago :

In the real world, we get better at things by practicing at doing them. i.e. The more we do them, the better we get. Hz is a game, and it represents this through the use of skills. [x] skill let's you smelt iron. The game determines when you've practiced enough by assigning you experience for practicing. I.e. you make bronze bars and thus you get better at making them, until you get so good you can make iron bars.

This vaguely reflects reality. It does not reflect reality when I can make 10 million focused crystals, but the game says I'm still a lackwit that knows nothing about the art, and thus my skill is still 10. If Tulga doesn't want lairshapers to powerlvl through grinding crystals, fine, I don't take issue with that. But I do take issue when they tell me I can't get better with crystals through making crystals, yet I can get better at crystals by lairshaping, even if I didn't actually use any crystals to shape my lair.

Were Tulga to take crystalshaping out of the lairshaping school entirely, like smelting has no part in tinkering, I would be satisfied, and my complaint wouldn't apply, and I'd happily carry on playing the game. But they haven't so I'm not, and that's why I'm still explaining my POV in this thread.