the random system needs to be replaced

[LaughingOtter]

The way Dak was dropping hides was indeed an incentive for people to multi-box, because it rewarded those who had more than one representative attempt to loot. Thing is, if someone is paying the money for the added sub, and both characters take part, both should be allowed to loot. The second character is paid for with a subscription fee, just like everyone else in the group.

All that is beside the point. The point is, you're asking for an auto loot function, which would severly encourage and activly aid item farming. Not just of boss mobs, of anything. This Is A Bad Thing.

[Xarog]

All that is beside the point. The point is, you're asking for an auto loot function, which would severly encourage and activly aid item farming. Not just of boss mobs, of anything. This Is A Bad Thing.

I do not see anything in this thread which is innately an auto-loot function. Could you please point it out to me?

[Lycaunoss]

You realize that what you are asking for will make it possible for people to autofarm not only cash, but items? If you are in a group by yourself and use the /random autosplit command proposed here, then you will get all the loot. Unlike the current system, this idea can be macroed. For that reason if no other, this proposal gets a 'Nay' as far as I'm concerned.

No rewards for AFK macroing!

My suggestion as I saw it would be just another button on the loot window and right now that can't be macroed unless there's something I'm missing.

[LaughingOtter]

My suggestion as I saw it would be just another button on the loot window and right now that can't be macroed unless there's something I'm missing.

When the loot screen comes up, someone can grab a single item just by double-clicking on it. They don't have to use the 'Take All' button. So, for an auto-random system to work, it has to happen immediatly, without player intervention, as soon as the mob dies, otherwise you gain nothing over the current system and doing /random. Looting has to be completely out of player control, 100% automated, if people are going to trust it. If I can open a loot window and take the prize item before someone else hits "randomly divide loot", then the system is useless. There realy is no option but to have automated looting that players cannot influence in any way.

If autolooting only works in a group, then I log in a guildie and add them, then macro away and collect from them when we're finished.

That's where the system falls apart. Anything else means a degree of player involvement and opens to door to accusations of cheating or of exploiting the system.

[Xarog]

When the loot screen comes up, someone can grab a single item just by double-clicking on it. They don't have to use the 'Take All' button. So, for an auto-random system to work, it has to happen immediatly, without player intervention, as soon as the mob dies

Only if the spawned boss 'drops' and item, and then the game randomly assigns it to a player. It's much easier to simply work with giving everybody an instanced loot drop from such mobs. Let's say the chance for a bossmob becomes a flat 10%. It's then possible for more than one player to get a weapon or item part on a single run. Each person would have his own unique loot window that's seperate from everyone else, as was initially done with the daknor quests.

If I can open a loot window and take the prize item before someone else hits "randomly divide loot", then the system is useless. There realy is no option but to have automated looting that players cannot influence in any way.

If the game decides those who haven't won the random can't *see* the item, then this isn't a problem. Has been done before, so it can be easily implimented in future.

If autolooting only works in a group, then I log in a guildie and add them, then macro away and collect from them when we're finished.

I'm not sure what you mean here - can you rephrase?

That's where the system falls apart. Anything else means a degree of player involvement and opens to door to accusations of cheating or of exploiting the system.

I've given an alternative where there's no player intervention, but macroing isn't possible either.

[shadow_wyrm]

the only thing i was saying that needed to be changed was instead of the items dropping into the loot window for everyone to grab, you get a chance of it dropping in your inventory

has nothing to do with auto loot or anything like that. you can still loot him as normal only thing is there wont be any pieces or weapons on him.

alls it is. is the same chance of the weapon dropping but instead of on him it's on you.at least that way if you are there helping kill him you have a chance of walking away with something for killing him. instead of just getting lucky that you dice rolled high enough.

[HAG]

the only thing i was saying that needed to be changed was instead of the items dropping into the loot window for everyone to grab, you get a chance of it dropping in your inventory

As the new system will totally base on random again - how should it make a difference to the status quo? Those that have the feeling they are unlucky will have that same feeling after the x-th empty lootwindow.

Ok, it would make it impossible for any loot-stealers. But in that 2 years i am hunting named ones with special looted i only witnessed 1 similar act (looter crashed and took 1/2 hour to log back in) and heard of a real loot-stealer in another group. He was kinda publicly baned and left after some time.

[Helcat]

I'm all for revamping drops so loot randomly lands
in group members' inventories. On more than one
occasion I've been in groups where a member
took it upon himself to loot, then deleted loot he
himself did not desire, before others could request it.

I've also been in groups where someone takes it upon
him/herself to loot, realizes the drop is one they
really want themselves, then on the spot, determined
special "rules" should now be established regarding
who gets loot... and even went so far as to hold the
loot "hostage" so to speak, until everyone agreed to
the new set of "rules." Not cool.

[Xarog]

the only thing i was saying that needed to be changed was instead of the items dropping into the loot window for everyone to grab, you get a chance of it dropping in your inventory

has nothing to do with auto loot or anything like that. you can still loot him as normal only thing is there wont be any pieces or weapons on him.

If it pops into your inventory without you actually having to do something to get it there, then it is an auto-loot, despite your intentions. As I said, I support the idea of a better system being in place, but this solution creates more problems than it solves. Try coming up with an idea that requires that actually requires the user to loot as normal, without things magically appearing in their inventory.

As the new system will totally base on random again - how should it make a difference to the status quo? Those that have the feeling they are unlucky will have that same feeling after the x-th empty lootwindow.

Ok, it would make it impossible for any loot-stealers. But in that 2 years i am hunting named ones with special looted i only witnessed 1 similar act (looter crashed and took 1/2 hour to log back in) and heard of a real loot-stealer in another group. He was kinda publicly baned and left after some time.

I don't think the problem is with the random system itself, rather that it's governed and enforced by players - at least that's what I read in shadow_wyrm's opening post. The community censure is a nice option, but it only works while there are so few of us - as the population increases, the ability to censure everyone who cheats becomes harder and harder.

I'm all for revamping drops so loot randomly lands
in group members' inventories. On more than one
occasion I've been in groups where a member
took it upon himself to loot, then deleted loot he
himself did not desire, before others could request it.

Again, this leads to the possibility of players hunting mobs with a macro. Instanced loot windows like were originally seen with daknor is a far better option.

[LaughingOtter]

OK, then, let's assume for the sake of argument that you have designed a system that can't be macroed and isn't subject to any kind of player intervention. If everyone who tries to loot has a chance to get a rare item drop, or even multiple drops, then people will be lining up their alts to jump into group and loot everytime a boss mob is killed. Your "instanced loot window" would instantly lead to multi-box farming and an explosion of camping - exactly as we saw initially with Daknor.

Again, an extreme solution for such a non-problem.

[Xarog]

OK, then, let's assume for the sake of argument that you have designed a system that can't be macroed and isn't subject to any kind of player intervention. If everyone who tries to loot has a chance to get a rare item drop, or even multiple drops, then people will be lining up their alts to jump into group and loot everytime a boss mob is killed. Your "instanced loot window" would instantly lead to multi-box farming and an explosion of camping - exactly as we saw initially with Daknor.

No, it could follow current looting rules. i.e. if you weren't in the group at the time of death, you get the "you do not have permission to loot this corspe" message. That would stop *all* alt-logging dead in its tracks.

Though, it might not be a bad thing to make changes to the system so that everyone in the area at the time of the kill, or everyone who did damage to the mob, or healed someone doing damage to the mob could loot the dead boss. I think that would be a nice way to reduce ill-feelings towards other players when more than one group pitches up to kill a boss.

[LaughingOtter]

Good idea. The system isn't nearly complicated enough yet. So, if an alt is in the area healing but not in the group, do they get the chance to loot or do they get the "you do not have permissions to loot" message? What if someone has a bunch of level 10 newbies casting training heals on people they are not grouped with in order to get the instanced loot window and a chance at a rare drop?

"everyone in the area at the time of the kill, or everyone who did damage to the mob, or healed someone doing damage to the mob could loot the dead boss" - sounds like a formula for mass alt-farming now.

Keep going. When we get pets, they should get a chance to loot as well if they did damage. Heck, my shoulder parrot should get to loot - that was really a traumatic experience and he's suing for emotional damages.

[Xarog]

I assume that means that you now concede that the current drop rules would stop alt-logging dead in its tracks?

As for my ad-hoc suggestion - you're right, it does have flaws, I added it on the spur of the moment.

[Jayne]

Not just anyone should be able to loot. you should be there for the fight from the start, wether your healing or fighting. What I do wanna see changed is that everyone can see what is looted. Currently when we have two groups, the group that does most damage gets to loot, but its not posted in main tell, its in group tell. So you don't know if one group is pulling a fast one.

I am not saying anyone is, but if that were fixed then there could be no accusations or assumptions. Just keeps things on the up and up.

Jayne

[LaughingOtter]

Make any assumption you wish.

I'm just indulging a morbid curiosity about just how complex and overblown a system you are going to wind up proposing, all to fix something that's a complete non-issue.

If you don't trust someone to abide by the /random, don't hunt with them. Take some responsability for your own game experience. Very simple, very easy. More importanly, when development and implementation resources are limited they need to be focused on critical gameplay and performance issues - which this is not, by any means.

[Xarog]

I'm just indulging a morbid curiosity about just how complex and overblown a system you are going to wind up proposing, all to fix something that's a complete non-issue.

A system where one player can screw every single other player by stealing the loot and running off without anyone being able to stop him is not a non-issue.

Currently, community censure is a valuable tool against that, but if the population on the shards increases it will lose its effectiveness. Unless you can either refute this claim or refute the fact that one person can spoil it for everyone else, you cannot claim it's a non-issue, sorry.

If you don't trust someone to abide by the /random, don't hunt with them. Take some responsability for your own game experience. Very simple, very easy. More importanly, when development and implementation resources are limited they need to be focused on critical gameplay and performance issues - which this is not, by any means.

Yes, hunting with people you trust is a good idea, but it doesn't solve the problem. As to what the devs' priorities should be, you're entitled to your opinion; but it's entirely outside the scope of this thread.

[Seranthor]

A system where one player can screw every single other player by stealing the loot and running off without anyone being able to stop him is not a non-issue.

Sir, its been explained many times with many solutions throughout this thread how to resolve that particular issue, Announce to the shard what happened would be one, refuse to hunt with the person would be another, submit the logs of the situation to TG would be even a 3rd. I have to state very emphatically your way would cause many more 'issues' than solving this one. If you think your idea is such a wonderful one, write it up formally, submit it to TG, and see where it goes. If your idea is a good one, if its explained adequately and fleshed out to resolve all contingencies then you may see it implemented. Arguing with old veterans over the issue trying to sway them to your side where they have very valid points against it isn't going to make it happen, it only makes folks wonder what your true agenda is.

but then again, thats just my observation, and truly the easiest way to solve the issue, immho, is just not hunt with that person(s) anymore. If this person(s) are truly as dishonest as you percieve them to be eventually folks will not hunt with them and they wont be able to ninja-loot the big mobs anymore.

[Lycaunoss]

[quote=Xarog]

Currently, community censure is a valuable tool against that, but if the population on the shards increases it will lose its effectiveness. Unless you can either refute this claim or refute the fact that one person can spoil it for everyone else, you cannot claim it's a non-issue, sorry.


quote]

Community censure is not a valuable tool against that. If you actively participate in the censure of another player you are harassing another player and that will get your own account suspended or worse (or it should anyway).

I think there would be a way to shoot holes in any proposed solution to the problem whether you believe it's a problem or not. The trick would be one that's better than what we have now without, as LO suggested, being too complex.

My suggestion was not to replace what we have now but to add to it. A one button for divvying up the loot random like would only be a good way to not have everyone have to /random for an item. Simple convenience nothing more.

[LaughingOtter]

As to what the devs' priorities should be, you're entitled to your opinion; but it's entirely outside the scope of this thread.

You do realize that if you apply that demand fairly and equally, you can't post either...

[Xarog]

Seranthor

Sir, its been explained many times with many solutions throughout this thread how to resolve that particular issue, Announce to the shard what happened would be one, refuse to hunt with the person would be another, submit the logs of the situation to TG would be even a 3rd.

As I said in my first post, the current system is only effective while there are relatively few players on the shard. Do you really thing the TG support staff has the resources to start supervising every last drop? Because without the rest of the shard kicking the offender out of the community, that's the only recourse one has to making sure the drop is fair. And good luck trying to get this done on Unity.

As I said in my first post, if the population on a shard increases, keeping a list of all the perpetrators becomes harder until it becomes impossible to keep track of everyone. There's a very good reason why there's so much scamming to be found on the larger MMORPGs compared to Horizons.

I also said in my first post that the situation is workable, because of the fact that there are so few players, and it obliges everyone to follow the random rules.

So I'm really confused why you're repeating things I've said straight back at me.

I have to state very emphatically your way would cause many more 'issues' than solving this one. If you think your idea is such a wonderful one, write it up formally, submit it to TG, and see where it goes.

Which idea is this? I've given more than one.

If your idea is a good one, if its explained adequately and fleshed out to resolve all contingencies then you may see it implemented. Arguing with old veterans over the issue trying to sway them to your side where they have very valid points against it isn't going to make it happen, it only makes folks wonder what your true agenda is.

Show me where I've ignored a valid point, please. Laughing Otter made the point that the changes shouldn't be an auto-loot function; I agreed immediately. He also pointed holes out in the one suggestion I made about possibly getting rid of the multiple groups causing player hostility; I accepted his criticisms immedaitely. I have, off the top of my head, given you two examples where I haven't ignored valid points. So far all you've given is ipse-dixit statements.

Lycaunoss

Community censure is not a valuable tool against that. If you actively participate in the censure of another player you are harassing another player and that will get your own account suspended or worse (or it should anyway).

I regard the act of refusing to have any dealings with players that have been shown to be cheaters to be a form of censure. Harrassing the player wasn't what I had in mind.

I think there would be a way to shoot holes in any proposed solution to the problem whether you believe it's a problem or not. The trick would be one that's better than what we have now without, as LO suggested, being too complex.

Each person gets their own loot window, as they did with Daknor. The loot window still functions as the current loot window does, in that if you aren't in the group, you can't loot the boss. The code is already there in it's entirety, meaning that the amount of work for the devs to impliment it is minimal. The system is obviously not too complex, or the devs would never have made it in the first place.

Edit :
LaughingOtter

You do realize that if you apply that demand fairly and equally, you can't post either...

Hey now, I never said the devs should fix this in any particular order, only that it was a problem.