Introduce NEED into the economy

[AmonGwareth]

I see it as kind of a balance between the two, Tantalyr. Yes, we NEED to have a lot more items that players WANT. But we also NEED to have a lot more items that players NEED.

Oh, by the way, this is a contradiction:

We like to ultimately become completely self-sufficient, not only to meet our own requirements but to furnish others with items or structures they cannot make themselves. And whether I choose to charge any coin at all for those items, or barter them for services or other goods, is nobody's affair but my own.

You want to be fully self-sufficient but supply others? IF everyone is self-sufficient AND if the things you make never go away then there is infinite supply and almost no demand. Economics 101 says that if Supply goes up, and demand remains constant, that the price will go down.

Horizons NEEDs things to that players need and want and it NEEDs a way to reduce supply. But at the same time, we are very concious of the fact that we must keep the game fun.

Any changes we make will be done carefully, with much deliberation, and afterwards with much tweaking and feedback.

[Cheopis]

Thinking about it, I have to change my stance a bit to side with Tantalyr to some extent.

Fluff would be a better, less intrusive way to create a game money sink. Wants are a more palatable way for players to spend money than needs.

NPC made, expensive devices that allow you to recall to a second recall point, or perhaps recall with a disk would be something that crafters and adventurers alike would really like to have on occasion - but implementing them fairly would be hard. Implementing their cost based on the maximum attained level seems the best way to me, but...

I like the idea of armor decay, and am lukewarm to the idea of structure decay, but I can see that those things will not actually create significant interdependence. The only characters who will need them that cannot make them for themselves, at the high end, will be adventurer-only characters - rare birds. At the low end, any character that plays a significant amount of the time is requiring new gear and equipment pretty regularly anyway.

Honestly I believe that part of the lack of interdependence in the game is due to the transport system. After you have ported 10-20 times, depending on your machine, every port after that is a gamble. Tazoon is always a gamble, unless you have a very good machine, or have your settings turned down to monkey-with-a-crayon level (and even then if you have ported a lot, Tazoon can still crash you)

Nobody wants to travel unnesessarily because travel is dangerous to game connection, and loading times are so annoying - especially in big towns. I think that is the design team were to create a few want-based expenses that allowed more efficient transport, it would become the money sink for rich players, and a good way to move quickly, occasionally, for less well off characters.

But I'm getting into travel issues here, and breaking away from the thread, so I'll go back and reiterate that I think Tantalyr is right that introducing Wants would be far better than introducing Needs.

[Cheopis]

There is another thread going on right now, suggesting and chatting about creating buyers ingame, where a player, for a fee, can put in an open order for a spell, weapon, armor, whatever, and a crafter can accept a commission to create it, and have some time to do so before the buy order is put back on the market for others to accept.

I _really_ like this idea. Being a late night player myself, I know the frustration of asking if anyone can make me <x> and getting nothing but silence from the market channel.

I personally think that this concept needs to be looked at closely by the Devs, and, if done well, a open-order system in HZ could create a much better marketplace for all players. Crafter needs 20 oak treant hearts? put in an open order. Adventurer needs a mithril long sword with three sockets? put in an order.

Charge a fee for every open order, and put a fairly strict requirement on the number of open orders that are allowed. See how the concept takes off, and if it takes off and is used heavily, increase resources assigned to it and let players use it more.

Again, I really like the idea of an open order system, and I think it would also help to address the issues we are discussing in this thread too.

[Anima]

<Waves!>


Supply and Demand

Population: The world population is steadly growing, a steady growth in Demand. Istaria population fluxuates a great deal and from what I hear from DB, its on the trend of slow growth.

As it stands, supply is much greater than demand. We're talking about base goods; armor, weapons, spells, tools, etc. But in time with more population the current system will recover and function as it was intended.

We need an additional system of FLUFF! Expendable goodies that arent necessary but are really nice to have! THATS where the real money should be churning about. Just stop and think about how much you or anyone else you know spends on ENTERTAINMENT! NESTING! FASHION! TRANSPORTATION!

I'm talking about player created Hoard items; crafted gems, intricate swords, breastplates, shields, urns, etc. Paying for larger vault space, or Rent-a-silos. Fashion clothing with partical effects. Expendable items like drinks, special potions, items for partys like paper hats or temporary tents.

Another suggestion about specialtie disks that are very expensive to make.

That great suggestion about paying to change your appearence, I'd personally love to change my hair every once in awhile. <nods>

Fluff fluff fluff... and MORE fluff! Its what Istaria is missing, an entertainment industry.

<waves!>

[Tantalyr]

Oh, by the way, this is a contradiction:



You want to be fully self-sufficient but supply others? IF everyone is self-sufficient AND if the things you make never go away then there is infinite supply and almost no demand. Economics 101 says that if Supply goes up, and demand remains constant, that the price will go down.

Not contradictory at all, Amon--at least not when you include the sentence preceding your quote: "Some folks, like yours truly, play every MMO with a revulsion to the notion of having to rely on other players for anything." (Emphasis added) Note the modifier "some." I, and I trust others like me, recognize that we're in the small minority of a typical MMO's player base. Most MMO players would rather not spend a ton of time and effort working on crafting and, thus, rely upon crafters for their items and/or construction. Call us clueless if you wish, but we actually enjoy crafting . . . and the freedom from outside reliance it brings.

And yes, we enjoy helping others by supplying them with items at little to no cost, or in barter for other services or goods, even goods we could get ourselves. For example, I would happily make a triple-teched or socketed Tier V tool or weapon and trade it for, say, 2000 iron bars.

Even so, if all demand for anything I could make or construct went poof overnight, I wouldn't jump off the next Istarian cliff I come across. I've plenty of nifty pixels and the ability to make or construct plenty more. I've plenty of very good online friends.

What I don't have is fluff . . . .

[Svayvti]

I must say that just starting Horizons I was very surprised to see there isn't some kind of item degradation on death like with most crafter economy MMOs. I would be all in favor of it, not so that players had to replace their own weapons so much as the weapon couldn't just be handed down when they were done with it.

I don't think there should be house degradation or tax, but it would be neat if some plots and lairs were subject to "invasion" by hostile forces like WA or Harpies. This would be a big undertaking, but a lot of fun in my opinion. Hopefully with some reward to justify the added risk.

Another thing I see is kind of a "charge" for trophy items. Guilds is most games would pay a fortune for that rare one-of-a-kind trophy item to put in their guild hall.

[Jayne]

This again?

Hummm maybe not only taxes but how about we need to send in plans to get a builders permit, JK!

The fact is, and I'm speaking for myself, I have nothing to spend my money on. Except I just bought a new plot, but when I sell my old one I'll get my money back.

There is nothing for me to really buy and I am not rich. I don't hardly bother to hunt comps anymore because there is nothing out there to buy. I need enough for the everyday use, porting, etc.

Jayne

[Chaldor Itieles]

Just to add:
Item decay can be implemented without destroying the "tech ress hunting" system by making a broken weapon repairable up back to 100%
Just give the tinkerers the needed skills and techs and by this the ability to repair itmes by using a specific amount of the reccources the weapon had been made from

example: to repair a full teched mithril longsword back from 0 to 100% the tinkerer will need at optimum skill 3 mithril bars.
Also some techs may be used to make items more resistant against decay (f.ex. armor tech reduces decay by 2%)

[Salis]

Currently the supply/demand system is totally screwed up.

There is no demand: once an item is produced as long as it is not delete and is stockable it stays in game forever and eternity.
There is oversupply: one multiclassed level 100 crafter can supply the entire shard in a mather of a week (guessing here) with all the basic equipment from Tier I to V.

Good points of Istaria:
A player crafting driven economy and multiclassing.

So proposition of fluff items only obtainable from the Empire in light of the game is wrong. If all the best items and nice items are obtainable from NPC's only, where does the crafting part of Istaria fit in?
Moneysinks fine, good we need them. But please make it not fluff items you buy, but fluff forms and fluff permits.
So that crafters can make them.
Solution for money sinks:
1. Every machine, silo needs a permit: this should be a one time fee. A big one.
Make the cost of the permit maybe depend on
a. Tier of machine or silo
b. the number of already present machines or silos on the plot
c. the number of machines of the same type (not silos) already present in that community.

Proposition of rules:
Cost of permit for the machine Tier I: 100s, Tier II: 200s, ..., Tier V: 500s
Cost of permit for each additional machine on the plot:
first machine: 0s, second machine: +50s, third machine: +100s, forth: +150s, ...
Cost of permit for each additional machine in the community for the same Tier:
first machine: +50s, second machine: +100s, ...

2. Unique forms obtainable only by loot drops from random high level soloable monsters.
To produce the item you need a permit as it are powerful weapons, armour, rings, ...
Rules:
Each unique item permit cost depending on the item between 500s and 5 gold to produce.

That much for creating some demand for player crafters.
Now limiting supply:

Items should decay. How fast is a balance issue.
Items, all items should be repairable.
Item decay can be any combination of 1. Usage: in the general sense each action taken with the item or only depending on critical hits and misses and 2. Time based (in game or reallife)

Time = money.
Everything in this game should be able to be completed as a solo project. But as it is still a MMO, cooperation between players should be stimulated.
We need to get rid of the easy and fast multibatch jobs.
In old times you wouldn't see a mass production of 100 swords at once. No it would be more in the lines of 5 swords/week and made by several craftsmen.

So how to do it:
Proposals heard so far:
1. More resources
2. Many different resources
3. More steps in between the raw resources and the end product.
4. Grading of equipment
5. Failure of production

1 think 1, 2 and 3 are the best way of doing it. Making it so that you need 200 ore for 1 bar, instead of 2, make it more time intensive, make it so that you need many different types of different crafting classes, stimulates interdepence (not prohibiting multiclassing but makes this a time issue), 3. More steps again makes it so that it takes more time (resource harvesting) to fabricate.

Longer production time: means items made on demand and not so much consigned items, especially for the higher tiers.
So we certainly need a form of consigment of requested crafted items.

All of this should be thoroughly balanced out of course, so that it is fun and rewarding to craft and to adventure.
Making sure that crafters and adventurers need each other.

Salis

[Vlisson]

or perhaps instead of a Longsword requiring 12 bronze bars, it required 12 bronze bars and 4 leather strips. that would increase inter-dependency between schools while making it more complex and take longer to make products.

please dont add this. think about tinkerers, is there anyone out there who dont gather the needed resources themselves (because of beeing gatherer/miner too)

if you need leather strips for a weapon would only cause more grind. Frustration because nobody will sell leather strips (t1?) at mithrils anvil.

So you need to gather mithril AND leather at the same time, only to increase the time you need to craft a sword. Nobody will buy this leather from a gatherer!

[Cheopis]

Salis I don't know why we haven't had an alchemist come in here and threaten you yet

if you drastically increase the number of raw materials to make tools, you drastically increase the grind time that an alchemist has to involve themselves in just to create a 15 minute single use potion.. Even worse, by increasing the grind time, you will increase the need for these potions...

Increasing the amount of raw materials required to make something is completely unnecessary.

Increasing the complexity of combines to create fairly mundane items is interesting, but it will need to be limited in scope, or low level players will have an extremely hard time creating their first few items and leveling up. Ideally there would be some sort of auction house system or open (buy) order system before cross-craft skill recipes are the norm, rather than the exception. There are already cross-craft tools, and low level characters find them very annoying to make (alteration rod and fishing rod) If you make all items follow this pattern, I think the damage to the fun level of new crafters will be severe. Now, if the second half of each teir of weapons required extra materials, that might be interesting. For Example, an Iron Broadsword would require only iron to make, but a fine iron broadsword would require iron, elm, and silver. Again, this complexity will bite the crafting system in the arse if there is no buy order system, IMHO.

I'm all for fluff, however you want to introduce it, whether from NPC's, boss enemies, players, whatever, but fluff really needs to be fairly simple (for the time being) or it will take dev time away from gameplay issues.

Your idea about machine activation costs is also interesting, provided that they are one-time-fees. No periodic taxes, please. The numbers you throw around as examples are far too massively large, at least for low level machines though. a small plot in many non guild areas costs less than what you propose charging for activating a t1 machine.

If you want to create a real need based economy, the first thing that you _must_ have is a system where people can buy and sell through third parties. Currently we have half of that, which means that everyone has stuff to sell, but nobody knows what other people actually want to buy... When it comes to armor and weapons, this is even more true. The more potential for variation there is in a class of items, the less likely you are to see it on a consigner - because the creator of the items doesn't know for sure if the particular combination of techs he has put together will sell. With the exception of single socketed t1 armor and weapons, and craft teched t1 tools, and some no-brainer teched spells (flame bonus flame spells, etc) you will see very few teched items for sale on consigners.

The first step to a need based crafting economy is to give the buyer some way to communicate to the seller what he wants, even if he's not on at the same time - especially for complex pieces like weapons, armor, and some spells which are effective with many different techs.

[GirlWithABow]

Solution for money sinks:
1. Every machine, silo needs a permit: this should be a one time fee. A big one.
Make the cost of the permit maybe depend on
a. Tier of machine or silo
b. the number of already present machines or silos on the plot
c. the number of machines of the same type (not silos) already present in that community.

Proposition of rules:
Cost of permit for the machine Tier I: 100s, Tier II: 200s, ..., Tier V: 500s
Cost of permit for each additional machine on the plot:
first machine: 0s, second machine: +50s, third machine: +100s, forth: +150s, ...
Cost of permit for each additional machine in the community for the same Tier:
first machine: +50s, second machine: +100s, ...


Salis

SCAREY!!!!!!!!!! I have been playing this game for about a year, my total money stands at 265 silver after buying my little plot. I am not money hungry, my guild consists of small players who like me log in for the relaxation. An economy is fine, but if I wanted to struggle to own a small plot of land and have to hunt and craft all day to pay for the permits to buid it, I wouldnt bother to play this game .....I WOULD LEAVE and return to real life....and it is not encouraging new players into the game and staying to have the satisfaction of owning a plot......it would detract NOT encourage

[Sigi]

This whole economy subject is so focused to players with money and nothing to do (and a rather capitalistic view). More things to make, more things to buy, ok. nothing wrong with that but please leave the need where it is... in RL, it's bad enough we have to deal with it there.

[Salis]

Who said everybody should own a plot, who said everybody should have all the machines available at your plot. who said you need to multiclass all professions?
Yes you can, provided you have the time.
Time is your enemy here.
I came up as a low level player with 750 silver and spent at least 250s on top of that on equipment and such and that in about 100 hours of gaming time. Yes I worked my butt of. That is what I focussed on. That was my choice. Currently Horizons is lacking a bit in the end game. So see this as a way to provided endgamers with something to do.

Once you are a high level players you should be able to make that amount of money in a tenth of that time.
Not all things in this game should be focused at leisure players. They shouldn't be deterred either.
I also gave possible figures. I think I clearly stated that everything should be balanced out.
This game is Massive multiplayer. A game with Guilds.
This game isn't about you alone. I added the added cost of machines in the same community just because of that. I see I didn't state that the machine should be available to the public. If the machine is private use only ofcourse there is no machine available.
Why the high cost of a permit: so one that you don't have everybody building the same machines. And 2 so that you would be more inclined to charge money for your fabricated items.

Secondly everything is about balance: potion making.
Your potion last about 15 mins. A sword about 6 levels. Lets assume (again not the exact figure here) say 10 hours of game time. That's a life time of 40 times longer. So I guess here that the resources required for the sword should be about 40 times more aswell.
If you gather in 15 minutes the resources for a potion lasting 15 mins.
Then you should gather in 10 hours the resources of a sword that lasts 10 hours.
I repeat everything are only example figures. In game tests and reports should give figures about what would be right for each item.

Thirdly.
I posted about an order system in this thread already, and in a seperate thread. It is clearly the first step into getting a working economy.

As a lone player you cannot create a market. A market can only exist when there is a demand. The market is created by the developers. The demand is created by players requesting items to be made.
Consigners can stay in this game as a place to put up standard mostly non teched equipment for the lower level player base.

Sigi a capitalistic view indeed. I think it should be a free open market. A not a communist market. That one has its own merits. But if you want an allowance to spend on stuff ask the developers to put such a system ingame.

Need: what is need: need is to me the goals you set for yourself in this game.
If the economy is balanced there will be no uber players making all the gold and leaving most players poor.
An adventurer should be able to sustain himself with the loot that drops and which he can pawn in return for coin, which then can be spend on items the crafters fabricate.

Girlwithabow: Scary, why, because you want to get everything given to you in this game. If so why not make everybody immediately a level 100 in all existing classes, make dragons not do their rops and arops, let them by ancients right away.
Each game is about being rewarded for your action. What would be more satisfying: playing one hour in this game and owning a plot or playing 100 hours and owning a plot of land. Playing 1 hour for your new bow or playing 40 hours to get that new bow? Everything is about a fine balance, the difference lies between something being fun and something being a chore. Right now, crafting is not fun, why because there is no meaning to it. Everybody is grinding to get to level 100, why? So that you can craft something everybody else can too?
Currently in this game the only real reward I see in this game is crafting a Grand Hall as a dragon lairshaper. That is a challenge. That is an uber item to be crafted. What is special about that fine iron sword?
Each item in this game should have value? Being it a potion worth of 15 mins of better stats, to that fine ironsword, to the TierII stoneworkingpedestal, to a Grandhall.
Everybody should feel wanted in this game and have meaning. and that is including the low lever players and the leisure players.

[Helcat]

but please leave the need where it is... in RL, it's bad enough we have to deal with it there.

you need to understand that some semblance of an economy
is necessary to the long-term success of a craft-centric game,
regardless of your distaste for economic necessity "in real life."

[Vasden]

I think the issue with the economy lies more with the lack of demand. What goes in to making an item really dosen't matter if ones client base consists of a pawn broker. In addition i've heard many say they don't place items up for sale because they just end up back in their vault after a while.

Perhaps we should consider these things before we increase the grind?

- Vasdenjas -

[Helcat]

Most of us aren't asking to increase the grind... not at all.
What we are saying is there is far more currency in the
Istarian system than there are things on which to spend it.
We need money sinks, and we need incentive to spend...

[Tantalyr]

Most of us aren't asking to increase the grind... not at all.
What we are saying is there is far more currency in the
Istarian system than there are things on which to spend it.
We need money sinks, and we need incentive to spend...

That, Helcat, well and truly encapsulates the concept I have been trying to get across with my posts begging for the Holy Fluff. We need more nifty cool money sinks, not more grind.

And Salis, what you have proposed might well model a real life modern economy, but your suggestions all have the huge "byproduct" of significantly increasing The Grind. Your notion that items should take huge amounts of resources to make, so that one might make 5 swords in an hour or two, is utterly discouraging to crafters across the board, from the newest players to the most veteran crafter. Imagine it: "I was in game for two full hours tonight. I spent the entire time making five swords and gained a whole 10% of a level." Ugh!

Your suggestion that plot/lair owners spend huge sums to purchase a single machine for their plots similarly exponentially multiplies The Grind. Have you tried your hand at building a lair yet? You might browse through the dragon forum and read the posts on what a huge grind that "art" already is. It literally takes dozens upon dozens of hours of gathering and processing resources and making intermediate and end construction units to install to complete just one Tier III or IV chamber. Under your proposal, however, after all that drudgery dragons would then have to go out and battle for hours upon hours to earn upwards of a gold to buy the machines to make that one, single chamber useful. Again I say Ugh!

I may be way off base here, but in my little world view any game must ultimately be fun. If The Grind is such that accomplishing anything in the game becomes more work than fun, it's time to move on to another game. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the installation of some emulation of a real life economy in a game. I do care a lot about the game's implementation of fun.

[LaughingOtter]

I agree with Tant - cash-consuming fluff is better then mandated spending. That's where the OP is misdirected. Need annoys people and they will look for ways to avoid it or direct their energy into creating enough income to more than offset the drain of the Need. The better solution is Want. Give players something they want to spend extra money on - in that way, you remove cash and add fun. My suggestion would be to turn the gambling dens into casinos - bright decorations, real gambling games, fiendish babes in Kira weave wear instead of a slotbot, random intoxication buffs/debuffs, and about a 1.5% house edge overall.

[Cheopis]

Well I spent 30 minutes typing up a bunch of stuff about want and need and plots, but then forgot to copy to clipboard, submitted reply and all was lost. I'm not typing it all again, so I'll just hit the high points.

Salis, you say that not everyone should necessarily have a plot. Practically everyone wants a plot. That was one of the biggest reasons why HZ lost a lot of it's player base early on. Every single plot was taken except for postage stamp, residential only plots in towns with no incoming portals.

Today there are many plots, and plans for more. All plots that I've seen are RCI plots. Horizons has addressed one issue that hurt them very badly before by adding these plots and removing the restrictions from them.

Remember that the _wants_ of the person at the keyboard are what any game revolves around. There is no _need_ for any specific online game. Gaming is all about want. When a game becomes one long grind session and unfun, people leave. When they feel as if their characters are being held back by insufficient game resources and not being allowed access to that which others can get, they leave.

There will _always_ be people who save money, and are richer than the average joe because they simply spend less, both in games, and in real life. Forcing these people to part with their money simply because you object to their having that much money is treading a very dangerous line, especially in a game that people can just cancel their subscription to.

The thing is, even if you DO force everyone to pay taxes, etc to reduce the free cash levels, the people who have more now, will have more then too - it's simply how they play the game. The only thing that would balance the players into a level standing with one another would be to implement server-wide communism, or targeted taxes on the rich. Either of which will create a huge uproar, and a lot of cancellations.

Hrm, perhaps this will be just as long as the post that got eaten before, ah well.

Salis, understand that _all_ online games are about making people happy. There is risk and reward, there is work and payment, there are various other ways that happiness can be achieved, but the person who equates paying taxes to happiness is a truly strange and rare individual.